Our Moral God

[Derf]

Imagine a prophet that can't refute a single argument presented against his doctrine!

Maybe that's why the two witnesses in Revelation need fire to come out of their mouths to consume their foes.

 

[Derf]

Joel 2: 28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Revelation 19: 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

If the testimony of Jesus is "the spirit of prophecy", what exactly is "the testimony of Jesus"? Isn't it the same as "the word of Jesus"? Don't we have the words of Jesus written for us in the gospels and in Revelation, as well as in Acts, the letters of Paul, and the general epistles?

In the end times there will be prophets. Both Joel and John say so. And Jesus tells us the same by implication in His statement.,

Matthew 24: 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Why warn of false prophets if there are not also true prophets?

That doesn't follow. There were false messiahs both before and after Jesus was on the earth. Are you saying there are true messiahs on the earth today, just because their are false messiahs?

Can you give me scripture for your belief there are are only false prophets in the last days?

Nope. There may be true prophets, even in our day, but the false ones will FAR outnumber any true ones.

I am having multiple miracles a day happen to me, my wife, and great granddaughter, Here is one example, When our great granddaughter got up here 3.5 months ago she was harassed by demonic forces constantly as her aunt is a witch who is teaching her 7 year old daughter to cast spells . She and her mom were both living in the same house with her aunt. As you can imagine it took us a week or two to figure that out

I was praying so fervently for her that tears would roll down my face because she would go into rages in which she would stiffen up and scream herself hoarse for an hour at a time. Her entire face would turn beet red and stay that way for a long time afterwards. I has afraid she would have a stroke. When I would pray for her she would stop instantly. No slowly tapering off and sobbing afterwards. Just instantly calm. That has come back this week. It takes the same amount of effort in prayer, confessing my sins and pleading with God to make it stop. Plus she is again waking up with nightmares screaming her head off. She didn't do it tonight so maybe this is once again over with as I have asked my heavenly Father to put a permanent stop to this. BTW, Barda is the sweetest baby I've ever known. When she is not under demonic influences she's very obedient and funny. At this stage of life have you ever seen an 8 month old baby who is a practical joker and creates her own jokes? She's lactose intolerant so we have to give her goats milk and it makes her poop stink to high heaven. My wife will smell her butt and tell her she really stinks and she giggles and laughs. She will also take her empty bottle and suck on it so hard you can hear the nipple make noise clear across the room. Then she will look up at you from under her eye brows and if you ask her what she's doing she will giggle and laugh.

You don't have to ask her not to do something very many times for her to stop that behavior. She loves to kick her shoes off as she has very tiny feet and my wife asked her not to take her shoes off yesterday as some moron has turned the AC on in her office. She didn't take them off once.

I'm not sure that an obedient baby, though quite marvelous indeed, is the same caliber of miracle as would be expected to authenticate a prophet.

Have you ever experienced anything even remotely similar to this? We are in the final days of this earths history and Jesus asked if faith would still exist on this earth when He came again. So can you prove I am not authorized to speak for God?

For one, your words are in opposition to the descriptions of God in the bible. God does not have infinite patience, yet you said He does, while at the same time rejecting that God would allow sin to continue forever. So not only are you in conflict with the bible, but you are in conflict with your own words. Just that by itself is proof that you are not authorized to speak for God...at least not on this topic. And if you make a false claim to speak on God's behalf in one area, can I trust you in other areas? That was the point of @JudgeRightly's post giving the tests of true prophets--even if your projections of future events turn out to be true, if you are leading people to a false view of God (which is so very, very close to preaching a different god), we aren't to be afraid of your words or listen to you.

 

[Gary K]

If the testimony of Jesus is "the spirit of prophecy", what exactly is "the testimony of Jesus"? Isn't it the same as "the word of Jesus"? Don't we have the words of Jesus written for us in the gospels and in Revelation, as well as in Acts, the letters of Paul, and the general epistles?

That doesn't follow. There were false messiahs both before and after Jesus was on the earth. Are you saying there are true messiahs on the earth today, just because their are false messiahs?

Nope. There may be true prophets, even in our day, but the false ones will FAR outnumber any true ones.

I'm not sure that an obedient baby, though quite marvelous indeed, is the same caliber of miracle as would be expected to authenticate a prophet.

For one, your words are in opposition to the descriptions of God in the bible. God does not have infinite patience, yet you said He does, while at the same time rejecting that God would allow sin to continue forever. So not only are you in conflict with the bible, but you are in conflict with your own words. Just that by itself is proof that you are not authorized to speak for God...at least not on this topic. And if you make a false claim to speak on God's behalf in one area, can I trust you in other areas? That was the point of @JudgeRightly's post giving the tests of true prophets--even if your projections of future events turn out to be true, if you are leading people to a false view of God (which is so very, very close to preaching a different god), we aren't to be afraid of your words or listen to you.

I'm surprised as I thought you knew your Bible better than this.

1Corinthians 1: 4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

Exodus 25: 21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Inside the ark were also placed Aaron's rod that budded and a golden pot of manna.

Hebrews 9: 3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

So the testimony of Jesus is the law of God. It's also the Spirit of Prophecy as John tells us in Revelation. It is only to God's trusted servants that He gives the ability to prophecy. Those who keep His commandments.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Maybe that's why the two witnesses in Revelation need fire to come out of their mouths to consume their foes.

Someone who seeks to harm them is probably not all that interested in engaging in rational discourse...

 

[JudgeRightly]

Imagine a prophet that can't refute a single argument presented against his doctrine!

Maybe that's why the two witnesses in Revelation need fire to come out of their mouths to consume their foes.

Someone who seeks to harm them is probably not all that interested in engaging in rational discourse...

In other words, @Derf, try again.

 

[Clete]

Someone who seeks to harm them is probably not all that interested in engaging in rational discourse...

I took what he said to be a joke.

 

[Derf]

I'm surprised as I thought you knew your Bible better than this.

1Corinthians 1: 4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

Exodus 25: 21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Inside the ark were also placed Aaron's rod that budded and a golden pot of manna.

Hebrews 9: 3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

So the testimony of Jesus is the law of God. It's also the Spirit of Prophecy as John tells us in Revelation. It is only to God's trusted servants that He gives the ability to prophecy. Those who keep His commandments.

Are you saying that anytime the bible says "testimony", it is always talking about the exact same thing, the testimony of Jesus?

Yes, I believe there is a connection between the "testimony of Jesus" and the ark of the covenant, as well as the contents of the ark. But that doesn't mean the law is the exact same thing as the testimony of Jesus.

So, when Paul speaks of the testimony of Jesus being confirmed in the Corinthians (or the Corinthian church, more specifically), it can include the way the Corinthians were acting, I suppose, though Paul was pretty harsh when it came to addressing the way the Corinthians were acting, saying that even the Gentiles didn't do the things some in the church were doing.

It seems to me that the testimony of Jesus is that He died, He was buried, He was raised from the dead on the third day. These are the things the people of this world don't want to admit, but they are the basis for the hope we have for resurrection and eternal life.

 

[Gary K]

Someone who seeks to harm them is probably not all that interested in engaging in rational discourse...

Thanks for such a beautiful complement. You have placed me with such Biblical luminaries such as Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, the minor prophets. John the Baptist, Paul, John, James, Jude, and Jesus Himself. All of them were despised for their faith in God.

 

[Gary K]

Are you saying that anytime the bible says "testimony", it is always talking about the exact same thing, the testimony of Jesus?

Yes, I believe there is a connection between the "testimony of Jesus" and the ark of the covenant, as well as the contents of the ark. But that doesn't mean the law is the exact same thing as the testimony of Jesus.

So, when Paul speaks of the testimony of Jesus being confirmed in the Corinthians (or the Corinthian church, more specifically), it can include the way the Corinthians were acting, I suppose, though Paul was pretty harsh when it came to addressing the way the Corinthians were acting, saying that even the Gentiles didn't do the things some in the church were doing.

It seems to me that the testimony of Jesus is that He died, He was buried, He was raised from the dead on the third day. These are the things the people of this world don't want to admit, but they are the basis for the hope we have for resurrection and eternal life.

No. Scripture literally says it is the 10 commandments. Remember, Jesus never broke a single commandment. That is His testimony. Why else was He crucified, died, and rose again the third day? Would Jesus have had eternal life in Him if He had sinned? Wouldn't He have become mortal just like Adam and Eve and the rest of humanity?

 

[Gary K]

No. Scripture literally says it is the 10 commandments. Remember, Jesus never broke a single commandment. That is His testimony. Why else was He crucified, died, and rose again the third day? Would Jesus have had eternal life in Him if He had sinned? Wouldn't He have become mortal just like Adam and Eve and the rest of humanity?

I need to add guy whom you guys consider a major failure because he couldn't "prove" to the people of his day the truth of his teaching, Noah. Only 8 people accepted his message out of all the people on the planet, and those 8 were his wife, his sons and his daughter-in-laws. Yet his faith in his heavenly Father ensured the human race survived the flood. I call that a spectacular success.

It's as if open theists don't believe the devil exists or that he has only a minimal ability to deceive. It's an ignorant idea as he was able to convince 1/3 of the angels in heaven who lived in the presence of God that God was evil and he was righteous. I'd say that was a spectacular success. He's leading you guys around by the nose as you all laugh at anyone who magnifies the power and attributes of God and yet you think you're all brilliant theologians. The only reason there is a plan of salvation to save us is because God has always understood what you reject as a concept: the devil is the greatest con artist the universe will ever see. And you think you're more than a match for him. I'm sorry but it would make me laugh if it weren't so sad as if you don't wake up and listen to the HS you'll end up in the lake of fire. The same goes for hyper dispensationalists.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I need to add guy whom you guys consider a major failure because he couldn't "prove" to the people of his day the truth of his teaching, Noah. Only 8 people accepted his message out of all the people on the planet, and those 8 were his wife, his sons and his daughter-in-laws. Yet his faith in his heavenly Father ensured the human race survived the flood. I call that a spectacular success.

It's as if open theists don't believe the devil exists or that he has only a minimal ability to deceive. It's an ignorant idea as he was able to convince 1/3 of the angels in heaven who lived in the presence of God that God was evil and he was righteous. I'd say that was a spectacular success. He's leading you guys around by the nose as you all laugh at anyone who magnifies the power and attributes of God and yet you think you're all brilliant theologians. The only reason there is a plan of salvation to save us is because God has always understood what you reject as a concept: the devil is the greatest con artist the universe will ever see. And you think you're more than a match for him. I'm sorry but it would make me laugh if it weren't so sad as if you don't wake up and listen to the HS you'll end up in the lake of fire. The same goes for hyper dispensationalists.

You aren't a prophet of God, Gary. Bearing false witness is a sin.

Stupid doesn't make you sin, sin makes you stupid, and you're mentally ill.

It's OK, God will still forgive you and heal you, if you just repent.

 

[Gary K]

You aren't a prophet of God, Gary. Bearing false witness is a sin.

Stupid doesn't make you sin, sin makes you stupid, and you're mentally ill.

It's OK, God will still forgive you and heal you, if you just repent.

Thank you for repeatedly confirming everything I say. That ought to tell you something when you are repeatedly confirming the words of someone you believe to be mentally ill.

 

[Clete]

I need to add guy whom you guys consider a major failure because he couldn't "prove" to the people of his day the truth of his teaching, Noah. Only 8 people accepted his message out of all the people on the planet, and those 8 were his wife, his sons and his daughter-in-laws. Yet his faith in his heavenly Father ensured the human race survived the flood. I call that a spectacular success.

It's as if open theists don't believe the devil exists or that he has only a minimal ability to deceive. It's an ignorant idea as he was able to convince 1/3 of the angels in heaven who lived in the presence of God that God was evil and he was righteous. I'd say that was a spectacular success. He's leading you guys around by the nose as you all laugh at anyone who magnifies the power and attributes of God and yet you think you're all brilliant theologians. The only reason there is a plan of salvation to save us is because God has always understood what you reject as a concept: the devil is the greatest con artist the universe will ever see. And you think you're more than a match for him. I'm sorry but it would make me laugh if it weren't so sad as if you don't wake up and listen to the HS you'll end up in the lake of fire. The same goes for hyper dispensationalists.

So now, the fewer people buy into your delusions the more convinced you are that your delusions are true and the people who created this website are all going to Hell if they don't take your word for it.

Someone please explain to me why we're enabling this lunatic?

 

[JudgeRightly]

So now, the fewer people buy into your delusions the more convinced you are that your delusions are true and the people who created this website are all going to Hell if they don't take your word for it.

Someone please explain to me why we're enabling this lunatic?

To expose him for the lunatic that he is, so that there is no doubt.

“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 3:15-16 - New King James Version

“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Clete]

@Gary,

If you're a prophet, prove it.

Tell me the name of my new grandson.

There isn't anyway in a million years you could get it right by guessing. If all you do is get the first name correct, I'll be amazed!


I will make a prediction! Call it a prophecy, if you like!

You won't even make an attempt.

 

[Gary K]

@Gary,

If you're a prophet, prove it.

Tell me the name of my new grandson.

There isn't anyway in a million years you could get it right by guessing. If all you do is get the first name correct, I'll be amazed!


I will make a prediction! Call it a prophecy, if you like!

You won't even make an attempt.

What a fallacious argument. Do you really believe that is something God considers it essential that any prophet should know? Do you really think Paul, Peter, James, John, Noah, Moses, etc... knew the names of their grandchildren before they were born? God has always given His prophets words of warning, rebuke and encouragement to the people they were sent to. He never gave them information to satisfy skeptics idle curiosity. Jesus never answered those types of questions. He never answered Herod's questions and He was whipped with a cat-o-nine whip for refusing.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What a fallacious argument.

Is it though?

(Hint: it's not)

Do you really believe that is something God considers it essential that any prophet should know?

It's a question that exposes you as a false prophet.

Do you really think Paul, Peter, James, John, Noah, Moses, etc... knew the names of their grandchildren before they were born?

How do you know that @Clete's grandchild hasn't been born and named yet?

I thought you were a prophet...

God has always given His prophets words of warning, rebuke and encouragement to the people they were sent to.

He has also given his people ways of determining false prophets.

You just failed spectacularly, exposing yourself as one.

He never gave them information to satisfy skeptics idle curiosity.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 4:1 - New King James Version

Love for God and One Another - Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

www.biblegateway.com

Clete just tested you.

Jesus never answered those types of questions. He never answered Herod's questions and He was whipped with a cat-o-nine whip for refusing.

“If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst. “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 13:1-10 - New King James Version

Punishment of Apostates - “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not...

www.biblegateway.com

But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 18:20-22 - New King James Version

But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the...

www.biblegateway.com

We're not afraid of you, Gary.

 

[Clete]

What a fallacious argument.

Told ya you wouldn't even try!

Do you really believe that is something God considers it essential that any prophet should know?

I know that if you were a prophet you wouldn't be stupid.

Do you really think Paul, Peter, James, John, Noah, Moses, etc... knew the names of their grandchildren before they were born?

I know that prophets told kings their dreams without having been given any clue as to what the dreams was even about.

God has always given His prophets words of warning, rebuke and encouragement to the people they were sent to.

You are a lunatic if you actually believe that your a prophet of God.

He never gave them information to satisfy skeptics idle curiosity.

Liar!

This is proof enough that you don't even know the bible, must less being privy to some special prophetic relationship with God. Not that such proof was even necessary after your getting on here and telling bald-faced lies about demon possessed children and experiencing daily miracles that no one can verify nor are you able to provide any evidence that could ever be verified because none of it happened because you are a liar!

You're a liar, a con man, a fool, a moron and a lunatic.

Jesus never answered those types of questions.

Jesus performed in your face, undeniable, provable miracles all over the place, you stupid slobbering moron!

He never answered Herod's questions and He was whipped with a cat-o-nine whip for refusing.

Please! Find me a cat-o-nine whip and show me your back!

 

[Derf]

No. Scripture literally says it is the 10 commandments.

Did you find other scriptures than the ones you already quoted? Because they didn't "literally" say that the testimony of Jesus is the 10 commandments. Just like the other verses we talked about didn't "explicitly" say anything about you, Gary, specifically.

Remember, Jesus never broke a single commandment. That is His testimony.

That's part of His testimony, sure. But it isn't the whole testimony.

Why else was He crucified, died, and rose again the third day?

It wasn't because of what He didn't do that He was crucified, it was because of what He said, claiming to be God.

Would Jesus have had eternal life in Him if He had sinned?

I don't know the answer to that. I expect that He would have had to die for Himself, instead of dying for us. Whether He could have been raised from the dead after that is a big question in my mind, but I think Jesus would have been in the same condition as Adam if He had sinned. That condition would appear to be that He would be dead with no one to die for Him, and then we wouldn't have anyone to die for us, either.

Wouldn't He have become mortal just like Adam and Eve and the rest of humanity?

Jesus became mortal when He became a man, else He couldn't die on the cross.

 

[Gary K]

Did you find other scriptures than the ones you already quoted? Because they didn't "literally" say that the testimony of Jesus is the 10 commandments. Just like the other verses we talked about didn't "explicitly" say anything about you, Gary, specifically.

That's part of His testimony, sure. But it isn't the whole testimony.

It wasn't because of what He didn't do that He was crucified, it was because of what He said, claiming to be God.

I don't know the answer to that. I expect that He would have had to die for Himself, instead of dying for us. Whether He could have been raised from the dead after that is a big question in my mind, but I think Jesus would have been in the same condition as Adam if He had sinned. That condition would appear to be that He would be dead with no one to die for Him, and then we wouldn't have anyone to die for us, either.

Jesus became mortal when He became a man, else He couldn't die on the cross.

I can't believe you said that. It's as if you haven't read large swaths of the Bible. How can Jesus be fully God and fully man and be mortal? God is immortal.

John 10: 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

1John 5: 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

If He is not immortal how can He give us what He does not possess?

The only reason we are mortal is because Adam and Eve sinned and we sin. Jesus never sinned even by a thought.

John 14: 30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

To you those texts don't "prove" what I say because of your lack of an abiding relationship with God and a lack of faith. You lack faith because of your lack of an abiding relationship with God, John said:

1John 3: 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Knowing God is eternal life.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Lack of a relationship with God means we are lost, not saved. Which means we have no spiritual discernment.