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I don’t disagree with your last sentence. But are you saying the rich man was in hell—his final destiny? Had he already been through the final judgment?

Please explain for me why the grammar of the sentence doesn’t allow for the comma to be moved.

Then you agree that the movement of the uninspired comma allows my position, at least for that verse?

I explained how they can be turned into Sheol in a post to someone else, but you missed it. Please don’t clog up the thread with your preexisting souls nonsense.

Funny! If doctrine is the reason to move them, then perhaps doctrine put them there in the first place, as the original Greek didn’t have them. Try reading it this way: Luke 23:43 (NKJV) And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

I can ask you the same question. Who taught you your doctrine? What motivates you to defend it? I’ll wager it’s the same motivation as mine—I want to understand scripture better to understand my savior better. And if something is not from the Bible, yet I think it is, I want to know the truth...

Thanks for the response, Crete. I still plan to do a fuller response to your post in the other thread, but it needs more attention than I’ve had to give it. Is it possible, in your opinion, that the commas may be misplaced in Luke 23:43, or are they inspired by God to be where Luke put them?

Scripture doesn’t talk about a “paradise side” of Sheol. It’s inferred at the most. What does “captivity” refer to? Isn’t the grave a place of captivity? Wouldn’t taking it captive mean taking away its power to hold onto people? But if Jesus ascended to where Abraham was, then Jesus death is...

You mean like a bird building a nest, or a beaver building a dam? Of course! And how do they know how to do that?

So you don’t know that Abraham is in Hades.

You’re assuming that “the spirit” here is referring to a part of the person, and that the person still exists without the body. Even if I grant you that a person is made up of body soul and spirit, or even body and spirit, the person would no longer be a person when one of those was missing.

How much of what you wrote came from the Lazarus/rich man text, and how much from your own mind/memory of what others have told you? For instance, where in the text does it say there was a paradise side of Sheol? We can tell from the story Jesus told was that Lazarus was NOT where the rich man...

Thanks! Can you explain how you think it applies ?

That's correct! And you are focusing more than energy into your lawn. You are also reversing entropy of your lawn with order, as sentient beings have the power to do.

This came up in another thread, and I'm moving here to discuss in more depth. In particular @JudgeRightly, @Clete, @Leatherneck, and @Right Divider all made some response. I'll try to respond to each in time, but I'll start with JudgeRightly. My position is that when someone is dead, they are...

Energy can't overcome entropy, but entropy will overcome energy.

The Catholic church isn't catholic.

You're catholic, but not Catholic.

At least when we start from the same scripture, we have a chance of ending up with the same conclusion. Starting without scripture, it’s all opinion.

I think we’re in agreement that omniscience doesn’t provide the how, it only supplies the what—and then some may extrapolate too far on the what when they assume the how. If the Bible is exhaustive in its description of the how, which I doubt, then it helps us determine the what, and why...