Theology Club: A Debate Between an A9D and an A28D

[Jerry Shugart]

The dispensation of the gospel began in Acts 9.

Here is the "good news" or gospel which Paul preached in the ninth chapter of Acts:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

And all of those in the synagogues who believed that "good news" received life when they were born of God:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

Do you believe that all those in the synagogues who believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, received life and were born of God strictly by the faith and faith alone?

 

[patrick jane]

i haven't looked for that before. i never tried to pinpoint it until recently. that's why i looked at the date written on all Paul's epistles. Galatians was first. before the gospels or Acts (most all of them), Galatians as early as A.D. 49.

i don't know the exact years of his ministry and travels/prison, so it's tough for me chronologically speaking to say when the dispensation began - Acts 9:15-16 KJV - i believe Paul received ongoing revelations throughout his journey and imprisonment; until death. he healed and did miracles, he baptized with the Holy Ghost. Acts 19:11-12 KJV and 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 -



i can also see something new happening in
Acts 13:2 KJV -

as soon as Paul met Ananias he went to Damascus with his first dispensation and straightway preached in the synagogues -

Acts 9:17 KJV - Acts 9:18 KJV - Acts 9:19 KJV - Acts 9:20 KJV -

 

[Danoh]

as soon as Paul met Ananias he went to Damascus with his first dispensation and straightway preached in the synagogues -

Acts 9:17 KJV - Acts 9:18 KJV - Acts 9:19 KJV - Acts 9:20 KJV -

Do you see any difference between that and Acts 17:

1. Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3. Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

I ask because of what He later reminds them in his two Epistles to them of his having taught them while he was yet with them - things we now know were Body truth.

 

[patrick jane]

Do you see any difference between that and Acts 17:

1. Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3. Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

I ask because of what He later reminds them in his two Epistles to them of his having taught them while he was yet with them - things we now know were Body truth.

DBR - ? the text doesn't mention Paul preaching DBR and grace msg in Acts 9, but i'm sure he was -

 

[Danoh]

DBR - ? the text doesn't mention Paul preaching DBR and grace msg in Acts 9, but i'm sure he was -

Its there; read 1 and 2 Thessalonians.

But here is a sample:

1 Thessalonians 4's Pre-Trib Rapture:

13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

2 Thessalonians 2:

1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

And yet, all Luke relates in Acts 17, is the same thing he relates Paul had preached in Acts 9.

Paul was preaching Mystery truths earlier than supposed.

 

[heir]

Here is

The gospel of God is foundational. Why wouldn't Paul preach it?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The gospel of God is foundational. Why wouldn't Paul preach it?

Here is the "good news" or gospel which Paul preached in the ninth chapter of Acts:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

And all of those in the synagogues who believed that "good news" received life when they were born of God:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

Do you believe that all those in the synagogues who believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, received life and were born of God strictly by the faith and faith alone?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Here is the "good news" or gospel which Paul preached in the ninth chapter of Acts:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

And all of those in the synagogues who believed that "good news" received life when they were born of God:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

Do you believe that all those in the synagogues who believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, received life and were born of God strictly by the faith and faith alone?

And, Jerry is still laden with the dilemma that someone in the Body of Christ could believe Jesus is the Christ but deny that he died for his sins.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And, Jerry is still laden with the dilemma that someone in the Body of Christ could believe Jesus is the Christ but deny that he died for his sins.

You are just making excuses for yourself because you deny that the Jews who lived under the law were given life by being "born of God" when they believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

You deny that 'faith" and faith alone is enough to save the Jews who lived under the law because your final authority is not the Bible but instead the teaching of those in the Neo-MAD community.

That is your dilemma.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You are just making excuses for yourself because you deny that the Jews who lived under the law were given life by being "born of God" when they believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

You deny that 'faith" and faith alone is enough to save the Jews who lived under the law because your final authority is not the Bible but instead the teaching of those in the Neo-MAD community.

That is your dilemma.

Have you overcome the world?
The LORD Jesus did.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

That is your dilemma.

Can a member of the Body believe Jesus is the Christ, at the same time deny that he died for his sins?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Have you overcome the world?
The LORD Jesus did.

Once again you try to change the subject in the hope that no one will notice that you have no answer to my remarks about what you said here:

And, Jerry is still laden with the dilemma that someone in the Body of Christ could believe Jesus is the Christ but deny that he died for his sins.

You are just making excuses for yourself because you deny that the Jews who lived under the law were given life by being "born of God" when they believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

You deny that 'faith" and faith alone is enough to save the Jews who lived under the law because your final authority is not the Bible but instead the teaching of those in the Neo-MAD community.

Since you obviously do not believe what is written at John 20:31 and at 1 John 5:1-5 you just try to change the subject.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Once again you try to change the subject in the hope that no one will notice that you have no answer to my remarks about what you said here:

I'm not interested in sticking to your scripted debates. I make points and move on, the readers can see what is going on.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Can a member of the Body believe Jesus is the Christ, at the same time deny that he died for his sins?

Jerry's great dilemma.
His logical conclusion has to be YES.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Have you overcome the world?
The LORD Jesus did.

He hasn't. None of us have.

Neither are we expected to, nor do we have the power to, as we are not in the tribulation.

The LORD Jesus did. And the 144,000 will.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He hasn't. None of us have.

It is one's "faith" which overcomes the world:

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith" (1 Jn.5:4).

Are we not children of God? Of course we are. And no one becomes a child of God unless he is born of God.

So unless you deny John's words at 1 John 5:4 you must admit that true believers are born of God.

Also, true believers also know that the Jews who lived under the law received life by being born of God at the time that theybelieved that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

Why do you deny those plain words, STP?

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).​

Have you been born of God, just like the Jews who received the Lord Jesus while he walked the earth?:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

It is one's "faith" which overcomes the world:

Made up.


1 John
5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Tribulation doctrine, just like 1 John.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm not interested in sticking to your scripted debates. I make points and move on, the readers can see what is going on.

:thumb:

 

[DAN P]

The Acts 28 teaching of Charles Welch is entirely dependent on the idea that Israel was not cast aside until Acts 28. So let us examine if Welch is right or not about when Israel was cast aside:

"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death? (Ro.11:15; WNT).​

According to Paul Israel's being cast aside carried with it the "reconciliation of the world."

And that reconciliation of the world is spoken of as have already happened in an epistle which was written BEFORE ACTS 28:

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation" (2 Cor.5:19).​

The Acts 28 teaching comes tumbling down like a child's house of cards when it is understood that Israel was cast aside before Acts 28.

I think that SaulToPaul also believes that Israel was not cast aside until Acts 28.

Hi Jerry and Luke 13:6=9 says that Israel was set aside after His death , but sentence was not CARRIED OUT until 70 AD !!

It is very interesting passage and in verse 6 has 6 verb tenses 2 in the Imperfect tense , on in the Present tense and 2 in the Aorist tense and that is just in one verse , so see what they mean !!

DAN P