A letter about myself

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hollyivy

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It is my desire to defend the Catholic Church against many falsehoods that I believe have been spread about the Church, most especially during the fundamentalist movement. I join a group of Catholics interested in helping to shed light upon the truth of the Catholic Church.

Over the years I have often heard people comment that Catholics are not Christian because they do not believe that Grace is a free gift and they are trying to earn their way into Heaven. Ever since I can remember, I have been continually reminded by well meaning Protestant friends that all I can do as a Christian is ‘accept’ Grace, and that my attendance at Mass will have no bearing upon my salvation.

I would like to invite all non-Catholic Christians on a mission to save Catholics to study the Catholic faith, with an open mind, and an open heart. Don’t study the faith from Protestants or anti-Catholics, or Catholics who don’t know their own faith. Study the faith from an educated and faithful Catholic. If you do not know such a Catholic, there are countless books and CDs at the Catholic bookstore. My suggestion is that you begin your study of the faith by watching a series of CDs by Scott Hahn and Jeff Cavins titled, “Out Father’s Plan”. This will help you to see the Holy Bible through the eyes of the Catholic Church. I believe that you need to know what you are saving Catholics from before you can save them from anything.

The belief that Catholics do not accept Grace as a free gift is as wrong as the belief that the earth is flat. As far as our attendance at Mass is concerned, I would like to propose that our participation in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the most powerful way we can ‘accept’ the gift of Grace that has been freely given to each individual baptized in Christ.

Our participation in the Holy Mass is our participation in the Blood and Body of Christ. We do not believe we can pay Christ back for the gift of his Body and Blood, because our relationship with Christ is not viewed as a contract. We are in covenant relationship with Christ. There is a difference between a covenant and a contract. A contract is an exchange of goods and/or services. A covenant is an exchange of persons.

Christ gives us the gift of His Church through which we are able to receive the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. This gift, is unlike an earthly gift in which a person gives up a treasure in order that someone else may possess the treasure. The Church, Christ’s gift to us, also belongs to Christ. The Church is the Body of Christ. We are His body. Through His Church we receive the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. Through this sacrament we receive Christ. Christ gives Himself to us completely, and we in turn, by partaking of His Body and Blood, give ourselves to Him.

In addition to our participation in holy sacrament of the Eucharist, our entire lives should be given to Christ. Each thought, action, and word should be done for His glory.

Those people who accuse us of idolizing the Church instead of Christ do not understand that we view the Church as the Sacrament of Christ. In the words of biblical scholar and Catholic convert, Dr. Scott Hahn, “We are what we eat.” We are the body of Christ and we belong to Him. Through the participation of His Body and Blood at the Holy Mass, we receive the real presence of Christ; Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. This is no symbol, the food we eat and the drink we drink is truly Christ.

The Jews quarreled among themselves saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. John 6:53.

Catholics, who are often accused of not taking the Bible at face value, take these words literally. So did the apostles and the rest of the crowd present at the time Jesus spoke these words.

Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” John 6:60

The early Christians also believed in the real presence and it was not until that last few hundred years that the literal interpretation came into question. I could quote some of the early Church fathers right here, but I will not take time to do that as that is not my main point. However, I would like to caution all Protestants from being brainwashed into believing that the Holy Eucharist and the idea that the priest has the power to change wine and bread into the Body and Blood was something only gradually accepted over many years after the birth of Christ. This is another falsehood of major proportions.

As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. John 6:66-68

Christ invites us to be members of his family. As members of His Church we are true sons and daughters of God. What kind of family member of Christ’s says “no” to the Heavenly gift of the real presence? Consider the following verse:

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. John 6:54

To all of those protestants asking Catholics if they have accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, I would like to say that as sons and daughters of God there is so much we can do in the way of accepting his Grace. However through the death and resurrection of our Lord, we have the gift of His Body and Blood, and our faithful and worthy participation in this gift is the most powerful way we can accept Christ.

I do not expect any Protestant to automatically take my words here to heart, but I hope that I can pique your interest and perhaps persuade you to learn more about the Catholic faith. If you don’t know the Catholic faith, how can you argue against it? What have you got to lose? At the very least, you will have gained knowledge about the Catholic Church and if it is your mission to save Catholics from themselves, at least you will have gained a better handle on what you need to save them from. I, however, believe that anyone who studies our faith with an open mind and heart will be embarking upon a lifelong journey, a journey impossible to quit.
 

P8ntrDan

New member
You'd do better to study the Bible, anything that doesn't match up isn't true. Like sacraments...

As for your friends telling you that what you do doesn't matter, they're partially right. What you do won't get you to heaven. However, there are some people who are going to get to heaven and there are some people who are gonna come roarin' in with a whole crowd of people, screaming with exhilaration, if you get what I mean.
 

Choleric

New member
Good luck trying to convince us that works is how we attain/maintain grace/salvation.

You will be forced to resort to the councils and church traditions, the bible is void of your religion.

But welcome anyway!!:king:
 

rbdeli

New member
Good luck trying to convince us that works is how we attain/maintain grace/salvation.
You will be forced to resort to the councils and church traditions, the bible is void of your religion. But welcome anyway!!:king:

Choleric,

Since I've joined this board, I have yet to see a Catholic claim that works get us to heaven. And I'm not saying it hasn't happened - I know there are many that don't know their own faith, but I have not seen it happen here since I've joined. Of the popular Catholic posters on this board, not one of them believe we are saved by Works. Ask them. Maybe listen for once, and stop ignoring the bible verses that don't fit your own wishful doctrine about OSAS.

You keep continuing to tell us what Catholics believe and still have not gotten it right. Honestly, you cannot disagree with someone unless you know what it is with which you disagree.

I am sure Holly would welcome a debate of your doctrine against the Catholic faith, but know what you're talking about, first.
 

Choleric

New member
Choleric,

Since I've joined this board, I have yet to see a Catholic claim that works get us to heaven. And I'm not saying it hasn't happened - I know there are many that don't know their own faith, but I have not seen it happen here since I've joined. Of the popular Catholic posters on this board, not one of them believe we are saved by Works. Ask them. Maybe listen for once, and stop ignoring the bible verses that don't fit your own wishful doctrine about OSAS.

You keep continuing to tell us what Catholics believe and still have not gotten it right. Honestly, you cannot disagree with someone unless you know what it is with which you disagree.

I am sure Holly would welcome a debate of your doctrine against the Catholic faith, but know what you're talking about, first.

:rotfl: That was funny, my side hurts now, thanks...what a way to go into the weekend.

You, Evoken, Spitfire, chrysostom and the rest of you catholics tell everyone out of one side of your mouth you are saved by faith, and then tell everyone else that we have to do about a million things to be sure we are saved:Eucharist, mass, water baptism, continual confession and repentance etc etc etc.

I know what I am talking about ARBY...pay attention.

You cannot tell me you are saved simply by believing. You have faith in your godless religion. I have faith in Christ. You claim your works make grace 'available' to you. You say the grace is there but you must obtain it through impartation through the sacraments, mass etc.

If you disagree with this, then you are not a catholic. I have showed you and the rest of your rcc buddies from your own church documents that you can't even skip church without being in danger of hell fire. Your documents tell us we have to confess to a man to have our sins forgiven. Don't tell me I don't understand.

Just because you stick your head in the ground and deny deny deny does not change the fact that your stupid church doctrines are there for all to see.

You tell me I must work to maintain what Christ has freely given. Your religion is a roadblock to salvation and should be dealt with as such. We can do this all day. I show your church documents, you deny, we go round and round. :nono:

:madmad:
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Welcome you zeal filled wunderkind you. :e4e:

I see 7 posts attributed. :think: Are there more or is the weight of this one prorated?

:idunno:
 

rbdeli

New member
You cannot tell me you are saved simply by believing. You have faith in your godless religion. I have faith in Christ. You claim your works make grace 'available' to you. You say the grace is there but you must obtain it through impartation through the sacraments, mass etc.

The problem with you and your religion, Choleric, is that you completely skip over what it really means to believe. Does the Devil believe in Christ? Tell me that Faith Alone is all that matters, but at least heed what the bible says about Faith and what it means.

What does it mean to believe in Christ?

What does James really mean when he says Faith without Works is dead?
James 2:24

What does Paul mean when he says that of Love, Hope and Faith, Love is the greatest of the three?
1 Cor 13:13

What does Paul mean, when he says even if he has the faith to move mountains, without Love he has nothing?
1 Cor:13

Then, you talk about denial, yet you deny Christ's very explicity message of the Mass.
John 6:55

I still consider you a brother in Christ regardless of what you may and will say about me. We agree that Christ is the son of God, and that he died on the cross for our sins. And from what I know about you, you seem to believe in morals and Christian values. So, to say that works don't play a role in your faith, just doesn't make sense to me. Does Christ play a role in your life? If your answer is yes, than you believe what it says in the book of James. Faith without Works is dead.

Have a good weekend.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Welcome you zeal filled wunderkind you. :e4e:

I see 7 posts attributed. :think: Are there more or is the weight of this one prorated?

:idunno:
:squint:

Why would you say that? I thought her post here was long enough to be counted as seven.
 

Spitfire

New member
You, Evoken, Spitfire, chrysostom and the rest of you catholics tell everyone out of one side of your mouth you are saved by faith, and then tell everyone else that we have to do about a million things to be sure we are saved:Eucharist, mass, water baptism, continual confession and repentance etc etc etc.
Perhaps it has something to do with what it means to have faith, then? Is faith in Jesus a simple matter of acknowledging that Jesus exists? I doubt that is actually your position, though I don't see how you would go about drawing the line between those who falsely believe and those who really do if actually demonstrating that you believe by actually doing anything and heeding Christ's words when he tells us that we shall not enter into his kingdom unless we do certain aforementioned things means we believe in "salvation by works."

Do you do anything differently because you have "faith in Christ?"

If not, what is really the difference between you and someone who has no use for Christ?

If so, how come it is "salvation by works" and "godless religion" when we, because we have faith in Christ, do a lot of things we would otherwise not do, but when you do something it's fine and dandy?

And you say we put our heads in the sand? Qui m'accuse, s'accuse... We have gone to great lengths more than once to explain our position to you, always pointing out exactly which Bible verses that position is based on, but you don't want us to have any reason for believing it to be true. You want to believe that we've been brainwashed and simply haven't had the personal initiative to read the Bible for ourselves or imagine how things might be different. You need there to be no basis for our beliefs, and you will not allow any reality to interfere with your needs in this case. This attitude may get you a lot of pats on the back from others who feel the same way, but, you will need to start going about things quite a bit differently if you plan on ever changing anyone's mind.

So far, all you have done for me is further convince me that anti-Catholic fundamentalists are totally irrational. And what a non-issue the Biblical basis of anything really is when anyone can get the Bible to mean whatever one wants by taking a few verses that one likes, constructing a whole understanding of "the gospel" based only on those few verses, and then going through whatever convoluted, tortured logic necessary to reconcile the rest of the Bible with that.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
faith acts

faith acts

Welcome holly


Faith without Works is dead.

True, living faith is 'active', 'alive' and 'dynamic'...and will by its nature, produce FRUIT.

God(Spirit, Love) demonstrates itself thru ACTION.

In fact, it is only thru the actual doing of God's will that we manifest/express and bring into completion His Love as shared amongst one another.



pj
 

Choleric

New member
The problem with you and your religion, Choleric, is that you completely skip over what it really means to believe. Does the Devil believe in Christ? Tell me that Faith Alone is all that matters, but at least heed what the bible says about Faith and what it means.

If all we were talking about was the difference between real and false faith, this conversation would not be happening. when I attack catholicism, I am attacking the false teachings I have listed before, :indulgences, purgatory, mass, eucharist, confession, mortal and venial sins, going from saved to lost and back again etc etc etc.

All of those are heresies. The fact that they are heresies is clear from Scripture. To deny that is to be blind or a religious zealot who is more concerned with establishing their own righteousness than accepting the free Gift of righteousness that God offers. Preaching these heresies stands in direct opposition to the Cross and should be dealt with accordingly.
I still consider you a brother in Christ regardless of what you may and will say about me. We agree that Christ is the son of God, and that he died on the cross for our sins. And from what I know about you, you seem to believe in morals and Christian values. So, to say that works don't play a role in your faith, just doesn't make sense to me. Does Christ play a role in your life? If your answer is yes, than you believe what it says in the book of James. Faith without Works is dead.

Have a good weekend.

I would never question your sincerity or whether you are Born Again. I question the religious system you associate with. People do not and cannot get saved by following the RCC plan of salvation. It is not possible.

Have a good weekend. :wave:
 

Choleric

New member
Perhaps it has something to do with what it means to have faith, then? Is faith in Jesus a simple matter of acknowledging that Jesus exists? I doubt that is actually your position, though I don't see how you would go about drawing the line between those who falsely believe and those who really do if actually demonstrating that you believe by actually doing anything and heeding Christ's words when he tells us that we shall not enter into his kingdom unless we do certain aforementioned things means we believe in "salvation by works."

Saving faith is faith in everything Christ did, and nothing I have done, will do or can do. Roman Catholics disqualify themselves immediately by putting trust in their confession, their church attendance, their repentance, their not committing mortal sins, their taking the lords supper etc etc etc.

Any demonstration is for man's benefit, not God's. To think that God is waiting around to see you do anything is ridiculous. God knows your heart.
Do you do anything differently because you have "faith in Christ?"

I try to live according to the law of the Spirit of life.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


That has nothing to do with my works at maintaining my salvation through any of the RCC methods; eucharist, confession, repentance, mass attendance etc. Those teachings of the RCC are a yoke of bondage and are contrary to the freedom found in Christ Jesus.
If so, how come it is "salvation by works" and "godless religion" when we, because we have faith in Christ, do a lot of things we would otherwise not do, but when you do something it's fine and dandy?

See above...
And you say we put our heads in the sand? Qui m'accuse, s'accuse... We have gone to great lengths more than once to explain our position to you, always pointing out exactly which Bible verses that position is based on, but you don't want us to have any reason for believing it to be true. You want to believe that we've been brainwashed and simply haven't had the personal initiative to read the Bible for ourselves or imagine how things might be different.

You have done a fantastic job of explaining it to me. That is why I am so sure of y conclusions. You believe I can buy people out of purgatory, you believe I have to attend mass if I am able or be anathema, you believe confession to a priest is necessary for salvation, you believe I can commit sins that the Blood of Christ does not cover (mortal) etc etc etc.

Just because you explain your position and list a verse taken out of context, does not mean you have defended your position in an intelligent way. You have simply helped the rest of us who have not been brainwashed to see your religion is Christless and full of human effort.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
So far, all you have done for me is further convince me that anti-Catholic fundamentalists are totally irrational. And what a non-issue the Biblical basis of anything really is when anyone can get the Bible to mean whatever one wants by taking a few verses that one likes, constructing a whole understanding of "the gospel" based only on those few verses, and then going through whatever convoluted, tortured logic necessary to reconcile the rest of the Bible with that.

The fact that you call me irrational is laughable. Your religion is full of false teaching and is a stumblingblock to the simplicity that is to be found in Christ. I have showed it to you repeatedly.

Christ says believe me and I will give you all you need for life and godliness. God tells us he will impute the righteousness of Christ to our account based on our accounting Him to be trustworthy and faithful. We can know we have eternal life through His sacrifice.

The RCC says he didn't mean it and here is your to do list.....Get to work.:)
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
It is my desire to defend the Catholic Church against many falsehoods that I believe have been spread about the Church, most especially during the fundamentalist movement. I join a group of Catholics interested in helping to shed light upon the truth of the Catholic Church.
Welcome to TOL and thank you for the thoughtful post.

Keep your thick skin handy.... TOL can be a bit harsh at times. :)
 

Spitfire

New member
Any demonstration is for man's benefit, not God's. To think that God is waiting around to see you do anything is ridiculous. God knows your heart.
Come on. :squint: Think about this for a minute. What are we doing here? Why did God give us free will, bodies capable of performing actions, and the capacity to reason and produce speech, if we all might as well just lie down and play dead once we've read the Bible and accepted Christ, because everything else is in vain?

I try to live according to the law of the Spirit of life.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Which means you try to do what, exactly? What law do you try to keep, considering that you abhor "law" (and hold yourself obliged to do so) in the sense of God's commandments or the authority of any church? That is not a rhetorical question. I am really still quite unclear on this, especially in light of your previous statement which seems to anathematize doing or attempting anything.

That has nothing to do with my works at maintaining my salvation through any of the RCC methods; eucharist, confession, repentance, mass attendance etc. Those teachings of the RCC are a yoke of bondage and are contrary to the freedom found in Christ Jesus.
Freedom to do what, however? It is no brainwashing but rather my own conscience you contend with, that tells me that I cannot go about haphazardly sinning and still presume that Jesus will save me even though I ignore what he himself has commanded and everything he has taught in his parables.

You have done a fantastic job of explaining it to me. That is why I am so sure of y conclusions. You believe I can buy people out of purgatory, you believe I have to attend mass if I am able or be anathema, you believe confession to a priest is necessary for salvation, you believe I can commit sins that the Blood of Christ does not cover (mortal) etc etc etc.
Yes, I do believe all of that except that last part. I believe that mortal sins are covered by the blood of Christ, which is why all we have to do is confess and repent. We no longer need to offer burnt sacrifices at the temple. The usual argument against Catholicism here is that the sacrament of confession lets us off too easily (and I suspect you will revert to that at some point though for now you find it convenient to think of it as some kind of laborious, burdensome task.) There's really not much to it, it's a very simple matter of sincerity and willingness. The rest I do believe because the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15) and Christ himself warns against the presumption that anarchy under Christ will suffice (Matthew 18.)

Just because you explain your position and list a verse taken out of context, does not mean you have defended your position in an intelligent way. You have simply helped the rest of us who have not been brainwashed to see your religion is Christless and full of human effort.
Works do not, and cannot justify the sinner, but to hold that Jesus is indifferent to or resentful of all human effort by those who desire to do what is right or please God is totally contradictory to all of Jesus' own teachings and particularly all of his parables.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Romans 2:5-10 - But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God. Who will render to every man according to his works. To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

We can know we have eternal life through His sacrifice.
You assume you will have eternal life. And, I know what a contentious issue this is around here, but, the simple truth of the matter is, there have been many who held this exact same position that you espouse now, who lost their faith, who now don't even believe in God at all. What went wrong, do you think? If they once knew for sure that it was so, and nothing could ever change it.
 

Choleric

New member
Come on. :squint: Think about this for a minute. What are we doing here? Why did God give us free will, bodies capable of performing actions, and the capacity to reason and produce speech, if we all might as well just lie down and play dead once we've read the Bible and accepted Christ, because everything else is in vain?

Eveything else is in vain, if you are attempting to be perfected by your flesh. Having begun in the Spirit, it is vain to try to improve upon or add to Christs' perfect work on the Cross. God gave us free will to choose to love him. He wants us to trust Him and walk after the Spirit.
Which means you try to do what, exactly? What law do you try to keep, considering that you abhor "law" (and hold yourself obliged to do so) in the sense of God's commandments or the authority of any church? That is not a rhetorical question. I am really still quite unclear on this, especially in light of your previous statement which seems to anathematize doing or attempting anything.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds


We do these things in this life because we have been freed from the law of sin and death. We are not under bondage to fear any longer. We are free to live for God without fear of losing our salvation or of being judged by the law. Christians walk in holiness out of love for Christ, not out of fearful adherence to the law. Through the law we are dead, by our crucifixion with Christ. We are dead to the law and alive to God.

Whatever sins I do or do not commit have nothing to do with my salvation. I live free from the law of sin and death but alive to the law of the Spirit of life I do not walk in obedience out of fear of the law, but out of love.
Freedom to do what, however? It is no brainwashing but rather my own conscience you contend with, that tells me that I cannot go about haphazardly sinning and still presume that Jesus will save me even though I ignore what he himself has commanded and everything he has taught in his parables.

Freedom to live without fear of damnation. Christs love for you is not performance based. that does not mean He likes us sinning, and He will chastise you for it, but it is as a Father chastising His child, not threatening you with hell.

The Freedom is to love Him without fear, trusting Christs finished work for righteousness.
Yes, I do believe all of that except that last part. I believe that mortal sins are covered by the blood of Christ, which is why all we have to do is confess and repent. We no longer need to offer burnt sacrifices at the temple. The usual argument against Catholicism here is that the sacrament of confession lets us off too easily (and I suspect you will revert to that at some point though for now you find it convenient to think of it as some kind of laborious, burdensome task.) There's really not much to it, it's a very simple matter of sincerity and willingness. The rest I do believe because the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15) and Christ himself warns against the presumption that anarchy under Christ will suffice (Matthew 18.)

If they are covered, then confession does us no good for righteousness. We have all the righteousness we could ever need through the life of Christ imputed to us. Confession will help if God is chastising you, but it does nothing to cover sins. It is not necessary for a child of God to maintain salvation.

If your salvation were based on your repentance and sincerity, then your salvation would be only as sure as your sincerity. Scriptures teach us we have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us based on trust in God. We are not saved stopping or confessing our sins, and we do not maintain salvation by confession.
Works do not, and cannot justify the sinner, but to hold that Jesus is indifferent to or resentful of all human effort by those who desire to do what is right or please God is totally contradictory to all of Jesus' own teachings and particularly all of his parables.

Again, the Scripture shows that God will chastise us for sin. He is not indifferent. However, telling someone they must keep the law to save themselves is false doctrine.
You assume you will have eternal life. And, I know what a contentious issue this is around here, but, the simple truth of the matter is, there have been many who held this exact same position that you espouse now, who lost their faith, who now don't even believe in God at all. What went wrong, do you think? If they once knew for sure that it was so, and nothing could ever change it.

I know it is probably less than satisfactory for you, but if someone loses their faith, they were never saved.

It does not mean they did not believe Christ was the Son of God. It does not mean they didn't think He came to take away the sins of the world. It does not mean they did not think they were a sinner.

It simply means that they did not believe at least one of those things. You can believe Christ came to save sinners, but if you do not believe you are a sinner, then He cannot save you. If you are not convinced He is God, He cannot save you (JW, LDS).

People who see themselves as lost sinners on their way to hell, with no hope, who come to Christ for salvation and find that burden lifted off of them will not turn from their faith. Those people are Born Again, those who lose their way, never got saved to start with.
 
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