I posted:
Just because humans are conceived or born imperfect, or with a sinful nature, or some such thing that guarantees they will eventually sin if they don't die first, it does not follow they do not have libertarian free will.
You replied:
Actually, if I understand the term (LFW) correctly, that's exactly what it means. Libertarian free will means a man is free to act against his nature and God's predetermination.
There are different definitions of LFW. I didn't offer one. One view of LFW is it is a separate entity, ability or nature within man from his fallen nature, or , perhaps, even his will that is in bondage to sin. Man is made in God's image & likeness with a conscience. A second view of LFW is that it occurs when God enlightens & graces a human to make a choice either (a) to follow the light given or (b) to resist the light he has been given. Those are not just pretend options. The man can choose either (a) or (b). God doesn't know which LFW choice he will make, so it is not predetermined. In this view while man's nature & will is to some degree in bondage to sin & fallen, it is not completely so. And when enlightened & graced by God may make LFW choices.
Mt.23:37b how often did I WILL to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not WILL.
In Mt.23:37 we are told of men who resisted the will of the Lord. His will was not irresistible.
If grace was always irresistible, why do we read:
Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, also do you.
Even Christians can resist His grace:
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
LFW is essentially a crapshoot to see how this black box (free will) is going to decide at any given time. There are no rules or guidelines as to how a man will choose. It could be anything at any time.
LFW is not a "crapshoot", roll of the dice or a matter of pure luck. It is the Sovereign God given ability for a human to determine which of multiple options to choose. Though, perhaps, many of those (i.e. Calvinists) who wish to call LFW a "crapshoot" do so because they don't wish to take responsibility for their own choices. Calvinism reduces men to puppets whose sins are not their own fault, but God's fault. In essence it puts all the blame on God for human sins. And gives them an excuse for their own sins: "the devil made me do it". Yet Scripture says men are "without excuse".
Taking this line of thought to a logical extent - if God created everything, then everything is ultimately on God, right? At the "rubber meets road" perspective (i.e. from our point of view) your first sentence is the question that is answered by the gospel. Man is a puppet of sorts - a slave to sin. Ultimately, I think, the whole concept of LFW tends to the anarchical because every man ultimately serves something and/or someone. The question is not if he is free to (dis)obey, but who (or what) is it that he is obeying? LFW essentially replaces that "Master" with "(nothing)".
??? said:
Why would an omnipotently loving God choose free will to be the determining factor of a man's salvation when mankind is so lost?
Otherwise you're like a computer operated robot God is making to love or hate Himself. So it's not really you doing the loving, it's God controlling His human puppet like a TV remote control to love Himself.
Would you prefer to (1) program a robot wife to say "I love you" to yourself, or (2) have a real wife say "I love you" from her own libertarian free will?
"If I found out that my wife’s love for me has all these years been determined by some biochip in her brain by a will or wills other than her, by forces or persons other than her, my opinion and experience of HER (as friend, lover, partner, etc.) would drastically change. I would no longer be able to perceive her love for me as HER love for me."
"...What makes me feel right about her loving me is knowing that it’s HER who is loving me. Libertarian choice is just a necessary by-product of this that comes in further down the line."
"... If God determined your daughter’s ‘love’ for you, then in my view you can’t say “My daughter loves me and if God…” since in my view it’s GOD loving you by means of your daughter who is just merely the instrumentation of God’s actions. That’s functionally equivalent to pantheism in my view."
"...To clarify, what I mean by charade in my previous post is God's call of sinners to repentance, His plea for them to turn from sin by the declaration that He doesn't delight in the death
of the wicked, His command for them to humble themselves, His "regret" that He had made man before the flood, etc. The calvinist understanding of God could be characterized by a man in
his room holding a sock puppet on each hand, talking to them and voicing like a ventriloquist their responses, one puppet being the bad guy and the other the "good" guy. Then, after a
long ridiculous show with pretentious loud drama, he rips the bad sock off and throws it in his fireplace, while the "good" puppet cheers him on."
"...God is a God of infinite and unconditional love... And determinism is also not on the menu because ‘love requires freedom’...Libertarian freedom is power to the contrary.
