Is death just another life?

JudgeRightly

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God doesn't need faithful men to carry out His will. He can use the basest of men and does quite often.

Except Jesus knew from the beginning who would betray him.

Yep, no doubt about that. His "familiar" friend, I think it was.

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Yep, that's a good one. From prophecy we have....

Psalm 41:9
Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

Then you admit Paul talks in terms of a future reality as if it were already here?

Well, I wouldn't say that from the post you've presented. He is just stating a fact. It's a present fact.

Question for both of you:

If Judas had repented just prior to selling Jesus out, A) would God have been happy or mad that he did, and B) would God's plans have been ruined/foiled simply because a man repented?

In other words: why do you assume that Judas was guaranteed to betray Christ?
 

glorydaz

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Question for both of you:

If Judas had repented just prior to selling Jesus out, A) would God have been happy or mad that he did, and B) would God's plans have been ruined/foiled simply because a man repented?

In other words: why do you assume that Judas was guaranteed to betray Christ?
It was already written in prophecy.
 

JudgeRightly

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It was already written in prophecy.

So what?

Prophecies fail when circumstances change. That's a fact. Just read Jonah. Do you think God couldn't accomplish His will just because one man repented? I certainly don't think so.
 

Derf

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Question for both of you:

If Judas had repented just prior to selling Jesus out, A) would God have been happy or mad that he did, and B) would God's plans have been ruined/foiled simply because a man repented?

In other words: why do you assume that Judas was guaranteed to betray Christ?
If Jesus knew who would betray him, it seems to mean he knew THAT he would be betrayed. And if he knew wrongly WHO it was, even so far back, the scriptures don't seem to be accurate. But I'm willing to admit of a contingent betrayal, with a fixed crucifixion. A contingent betrayal suggests that there are a number of negative prophecies that could have been bypassed, like
Psalm 41:9 (KJV)
Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up [his] heel against me.

I question that path, though, because it looks like Judas was specially selected for the job.
John 13:18 (KJV)
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

I think Jesus knew both Judas' character, and how to get him to want to betray Jesus.

There may have been other ways to effect a betrayal that didn't require Judas, as well as ways for Christ to be crucified even if the whole nation accepted him as king. For instance, Rome would have gathered to fight if they crowned him king. And no doubt the Romans would have paid a greedy thief 30 pieces of silver to betray him.

It's interesting that there's a contingency Passover built into the Law--anyone who misses the regular one was supposed to come to Jerusalem a month later for Passover.
 

glorydaz

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So what?

Prophecies fail when circumstances change. That's a fact. Just read Jonah. Do you think God couldn't accomplish His will just because one man repented? I certainly don't think so.
I refuse to get into this debate with you. I'm just sticking with the facts as we have them.
 

Derf

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What do you all think about this verse, in light of the thread topic:
Romans 8:10 (KJV) And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Whose body is dead, and how is it dead?
 

marke

Well-known member
What do you all think about this verse, in light of the thread topic:
Romans 8:10 (KJV) And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Whose body is dead, and how is it dead?
Christians are told to reckon their body dead and don't give in to fleshly lusts that displease God.
 

marke

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You don't think our flesh will be dead when our bodies are dead?
I said our flesh will be dead when we go to heaven. We stop breathing on earth before we go to heaven. When I said we will die before we go to heaven what I meant is we will stop breathing.
 

ffreeloader

Well-known member
If Jesus knew who would betray him, it seems to mean he knew THAT he would be betrayed. And if he knew wrongly WHO it was, even so far back, the scriptures don't seem to be accurate. But I'm willing to admit of a contingent betrayal, with a fixed crucifixion. A contingent betrayal suggests that there are a number of negative prophecies that could have been bypassed, like
Psalm 41:9 (KJV)
Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up [his] heel against me.

I question that path, though, because it looks like Judas was specially selected for the job.
John 13:18 (KJV)
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

I think Jesus knew both Judas' character, and how to get him to want to betray Jesus.

There may have been other ways to effect a betrayal that didn't require Judas, as well as ways for Christ to be crucified even if the whole nation accepted him as king. For instance, Rome would have gathered to fight if they crowned him king. And no doubt the Romans would have paid a greedy thief 30 pieces of silver to betray him.

It's interesting that there's a contingency Passover built into the Law--anyone who misses the regular one was supposed to come to Jerusalem a month later for Passover.
If we look at the disciples before Jesus' crucifixion we find that their ongoing argument among themselves was who was going to be the greatest in heaven and sit on either side of Jesus. Self was numero uno in their hearts

Judas carried the money bag so he most likely saw himself as very important. But at the feast at Simon's house he showed who he really was. He begrudged Mary's anointing of Jesus' feet and as he was a thief he said that the alabaster box should have been sold and the proceeds from that sale should have been given to him to carry. Greed was his downfall.

Was Jesus tempting/manipulating him? Absolutely not. God tempts no man. So why did Judas betray Jesus? James tells us that when lust conceives it brings forth sin, and sin brings forth death. Greed was the lust in Judas' heart that brought forth his own death.
 

Derf

Well-known member
If we look at the disciples before Jesus' crucifixion we find that their ongoing argument among themselves was who was going to be the greatest in heaven and sit on either side of Jesus. Self was numero uno in their hearts

Judas carried the money bag so he most likely saw himself as very important. But at the feast at Simon's house he showed who he really was. He begrudged Mary's anointing of Jesus' feet and as he was a thief he said that the alabaster box should have been sold and the proceeds from that sale should have been given to him to carry. Greed was his downfall.

Was Jesus tempting/manipulating him? Absolutely not. God tempts no man. So why did Judas betray Jesus? James tells us that when lust conceives it brings forth sin, and sin brings forth death. Greed was the lust in Judas' heart that brought forth his own death.
Did you consider that the dinner that night was being hosted by Judas' father, Simon?
 

Derf

Well-known member
I said our flesh will be dead when we go to heaven. We stop breathing on earth before we go to heaven. When I said we will die before we go to heaven what I meant is we will stop breathing.
So you don't even think we die physically, except that we stop breathing?
 
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