Theology Club: J.C. O'Hair and John 5:24

[Jerry Shugart]

On the Berean Bible Website we read the following about MAD author J.C. O'Hair:

"Pastor O’Hair was, without a doubt, the one person who, more than any other, was used of God to establish among believers what Paul, by inspiration calls, “the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery.” He knew that he had the Scriptural solution to the current theological confusion and preached the Word with great power. His oral ministry (including radio) and his many books had a profound effect on thousands here and abroad. As a gospel preacher and soul winner he was without a peer just because he understood so clearly the truth of the unadulterated 'gospel of the grace of God.' The Church, all over the world, owes him much."​

O'Hair wrote the following about John 5:24:

"The statement of our Lord Jesus Christ, recorded in John 5:24, should certainly give assurance to any one whose trust is in the Word of God...The believer has eternal life. The believer shall not come into judgment. The believer has passed out of death into life. Most certainly God wants believers to have a positive "know so" salvation, the real assurance of salvation. Hear God's own Word:

'These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the Son of God.' I John 5: 13​

"The Greek word, translated 'know', is 'iedo', and the other definition in the Greek dictionary is 'perceive' and 'to be sure'. Can you not see then that God wants you to know, 'to be sure', that you have eternal life; because you believe unto the salvation of your soul. You did not obtain your salvation by earning it or by laboring for it. Neither do you retain it because you are paying for it with your good works " (O'Hair, THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE; "Bible Study For Bereans"; March 1936).​

First, we can see that O'Hair applied what the Lord Jesus said in the gospel of John to us.

Secondly, he certainly believed that the words found at the verses which he quoted were not teaching that "works" were required for salvation.

How is it possible that those in the Psuedo-MAD community can look at the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law and declare that those Jews could not be saved unless they believed and did works?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

No matter how many times those in the Psuedo-MAD community are shown this verse they continue to insist that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved unless they believed and did works.

Anyone with an open mind can see that there are major problems within the Psuedo-MAD camp that are similar to problems found in cults.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

No matter how many times those in the Psuedo-MAD community are shown this verse they continue to insist that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved unless they believed and did works.

Did James say that faith without works is dead?

Is grace without works dead?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Did James say that faith without works is dead?

Here is what he said when actually speaking about being saved when a person is born of God:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

Is grace without works dead?

As far as what a man can know about another man's faith. If one man says that he has faith and he shows no evidence of it then as far as others can see that man's faith is non-existent or dead. And the context demonstrates that is what is being discussed in chapter two:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:18).​

Charles C. Baker and Cornelius Stam established the Milwaukee Bible Institute, and Baker understood that Abraham was not justified by "works" in the eyes of God, writing the following:

"James speaks of Abraham being justified by works 'when he offered up his son Isaac', which happened 49 years after his justification by faith as mentioned by Paul (Genesis 15:6; Genesis 22). Paul makes it plain in Romans 4:1 and 2 that the justification by works of which James speaks, was not a justification before God, and James states that it was the fulfilling of the faith which he already had (James 2:23). Grace is the source of justification (Romans 3:24); Christ's blood is the ground (Romans 5:9); faith is the means (Romans 3:28); and works are the evidence (James 2:21). As the tree must have life before it can bear fruit; so Abraham received life when justified by faith alone, and 49 years later that faith bore the fruit, of which James speaks " [emphasis added] (Baker, HOW WAS ABRAHAM JUSTIFIED BY WORKS?).​

You do not even attempt to reconcile what James said at James 1:18 with what is written in chaper two. Instead, you just close your eyes to the truth found at James 1:18 and then put a meaning on Jsames' words in the next chapter which contradict what James said in the first chapter.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Here is what he said when actually speaking about being saved when a person is born of God:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

As far as what a man can know about another man's faith. If one man says that he has faith and he shows no evidence of it then as far as others can see that man's faith is non-existent or dead. And the context demonstrates that is what is being discussed in chapter two:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:18).​

Charles C. Baker and Cornelius Stam established the Milwaukee Bible Institute, and Baker understood that Abraham was not justified by "works" in the eyes of God, writing the following:

"James speaks of Abraham being justified by works 'when he offered up his son Isaac', which happened 49 years after his justification by faith as mentioned by Paul (Genesis 15:6; Genesis 22). Paul makes it plain in Romans 4:1 and 2 that the justification by works of which James speaks, was not a justification before God, and James states that it was the fulfilling of the faith which he already had (James 2:23). Grace is the source of justification (Romans 3:24); Christ's blood is the ground (Romans 5:9); faith is the means (Romans 3:28); and works are the evidence (James 2:21). As the tree must have life before it can bear fruit; so Abraham received life when justified by faith alone, and 49 years later that faith bore the fruit, of which James speaks " [emphasis added] (Baker, HOW WAS ABRAHAM JUSTIFIED BY WORKS?).​

You do not even attempt to reconcile what James said at James 1:18 with what is written in chaper two. Instead, you just close your eyes to the truth found at James 1:18 and then put a meaning on Jsames' words in the next chapter which contradict what James said in the first chapter.

I don't deny that a new nation was begotten, beginning at Pentecost.

I have a problem with you taking that new nation, annulling it, and moving them into the Body.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

What did believing Jesus is the Christ require the little flock to do?

What does believing 1 Cor 15:1-4 require you to do?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't deny that a new nation was begotten, beginning at Pentecost.

Why do you pervert the meaning of this verse?:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

The phrase "begat" of God or "born of God" is never used in regard to a nation. Instead, it is used in regard to "people."

At Pentecost the Jews remained under the law and here is what Paul said in regard to their salvation"

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Since they were saved by grace through faith it is obvious to anyone who believes the Scriptures that worksplayed no part in their salvation:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Evidently you have not yet believed the gospel of grace since you seem to think that even though the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace you stll assert that they could not be saved apart from works.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The phrase "begat" of God or "born of God" is never used in regard to a nation. Instead, it is used in regard to "people."

Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Exodus 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Evidently you have not yet believed the gospel of grace

I believe 1 Cor 15:1-4 with all of my heart, relying completely on the LORD for my salvation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Exodus 4:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

These words which you quoted are not to be taken literally:

"The idea of a nation or an individual being descended from a divine ancestor was common in antiquity (cf. Numbers 21:29, where the Moabites are called the ‘sons and daughters of Chĕmôsh’): but in such cases the relation was conceived as a physical one; in Israel the idea was spiritualized, and, in virtue of Jehovah’s ethical and spiritual character, made the expression of moral and spiritual relations" (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges, Commentary on Exodus 4:22).​

Why did you not address this verse which is to be taken literally?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Since those who were under the law were saved by grace through faith it is obvious to anyone who believes the Scriptures that works played no part in their salvation:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Evidently you have not yet believed the gospel of grace since you seem to think that even though the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace you stll assert that they could not be saved apart from works.

 

[Tambora]

John 5 KJV
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

True.

Does it make this false, since it adds something other than belief?

1 John 1 KJV
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

No.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

John 5 KJV
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

True.

Does it make this false, since it adds something other than belief?

1 John 1 KJV
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

No.

What the Lord Jesus said at John 5:24 is either true or it is false.

If "faith" alone is not enough for a Jew who lived under the law to be saved then what the Lord Jesus said here is not true:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

And according to your mistaken ideas what the Lord said there cannot possibly be correct because those Jews had to believe and do works.

In regard to 1 John 1:9, those words are addressed to believers and not unbelievers.

Or perhaps you want to argue that if an unsaved person will do nothing but confess his sins then he will be cleansed from all unrighteousness?

In order for an unsaved person to have his sins remitted and be saved he must believe in the Lord Jesus:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

Now please answer this simple question:

Do you tell unsaved people that if they will confess their sins then they will be cleansed from all unrighteousness?

 

[Tambora]

What the Lord Jesus said at John 5:24 is either true or it is false.

It is true.

And according to your mistaken ideas what the Lord said there cannot possibly be correct because those Jews had to believe and do works.

I have no mistaken idea of the verse.
It is true.

In regard to 1 John 1:9, those words are addressed to believers and not unbelievers.

Or perhaps you want to argue that if an unsaved person will do nothing but confess his sins then he will be cleansed from all unrighteousness?

Are you now saying that this is not true?

1 John 1 KJV
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

It is either true or false.
What say you, Jerry?
Is that verse true or false?

 

[Danoh]

On the Berean Bible Website we read the following about MAD author J.C. O'Hair:

"Pastor O’Hair was, without a doubt, the one person who, more than any other, was used of God to establish among believers what Paul, by inspiration calls, “the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery.” He knew that he had the Scriptural solution to the current theological confusion and preached the Word with great power. His oral ministry (including radio) and his many books had a profound effect on thousands here and abroad. As a gospel preacher and soul winner he was without a peer just because he understood so clearly the truth of the unadulterated 'gospel of the grace of God.' The Church, all over the world, owes him much."​

O'Hair wrote the following about John 5:24:

"The statement of our Lord Jesus Christ, recorded in John 5:24, should certainly give assurance to any one whose trust is in the Word of God...The believer has eternal life. The believer shall not come into judgment. The believer has passed out of death into life. Most certainly God wants believers to have a positive "know so" salvation, the real assurance of salvation. Hear God's own Word:

'These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the Son of God.' I John 5: 13​

"The Greek word, translated 'know', is 'iedo', and the other definition in the Greek dictionary is 'perceive' and 'to be sure'. Can you not see then that God wants you to know, 'to be sure', that you have eternal life; because you believe unto the salvation of your soul. You did not obtain your salvation by earning it or by laboring for it. Neither do you retain it because you are paying for it with your good works " (O'Hair, THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE; "Bible Study For Bereans"; March 1936).​

First, we can see that O'Hair applied what the Lord Jesus said in the gospel of John to us.

Secondly, he certainly believed that the words found at the verses which he quoted were not teaching that "works" were required for salvation.

How is it possible that those in the Psuedo-MAD community can look at the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law and declare that those Jews could not be saved unless they believed and did works?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

No matter how many times those in the Psuedo-MAD community are shown this verse they continue to insist that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved unless they believed and did works.

Anyone with an open mind can see that there are major problems within the Psuedo-MAD camp that are similar to problems found in cults.

The above is just one more example, of many such examples allover this forum now, of how Jerry will twist the words of others out of both his incompetence at getting at their actual sense, together with his desperate need to bring attention to himself as some sort of a 2nd Coming of Anderson and O'Hair.

Fact is that Stam had settled many issues as to the Mystery's distinctions, as a young man, way before O'Hair was even aware there was a distinction beyond Acts 2.

Stam wrote about them... And wrote about them... And wrote about them...

O'Hair, put up an antenna and preached what he was coming to know, independent of Stam - he preached them all over the planet. And as he grew in his understanding, he put that out there over the airwaves; especially what he had understood the gospel of our salvation is, for his great love for the lost.

Read the above by Stam from this context - this context that the ever incompetent, as well as slandering of his own: Jerry Shugart, has once more distorted, in his pursuit of "See! See! I'm right - you're wrong! Now bow to me!"

Here are Stam's words, again - note:

"Pastor, O’Hair was, without a doubt, the one person who, more than any other, was used of God to establish among believers what Paul, by inspiration calls, “the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery[/B].” He knew that he had the Scriptural solution to the current theological confusion and preached the Word with great power. His oral ministry (including radio) and his many books had a profound effect on thousands here and abroad. As a gospel preacher and soul winner he was without a peer just because he understood so clearly the truth of the unadulterated 'gospel of the grace of God.' The Church, all over the world, owes him much."

In the above, Stam was simply giving credit where credit was due - O'Hair's worldwide influence.

Jerry is just being Jerry once more - distorting things once more in his quest to be perceived as the 2nd Coming of Anderson and O'Hair.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you now saying that this is not true?

1 John 1 KJV
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

It is either true or false.
What say you, Jerry?
Is that verse true or false?

I already answered you about that verse and ignored what I said:

In regard to 1 John 1:9, those words are addressed to believers and not unbelievers.

Or perhaps you want to argue that if an unsaved person will do nothing but confess his sins then he will be cleansed from all unrighteousness?

In order for an unsaved person to have his sins remitted and be saved he must believe in the Lord Jesus:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

Now please answer this simple question:

Do you tell unsaved people that if they will confess their sins then they will be cleansed from all unrighteousness?

Do you?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Cornelius Stam was evidently confused about how the Jews who lived under the law were saved. He wrote:

"Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden..." (Stam, Things That Differ, p.17).​

But here Stam teached the opposite about David:

"In Rom. 4:1-8 the Apostle uses Abraham and David to demonstrate the validity of his argument for justification by faith, apart from works" (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, p.87).​

So Stam shows his confusion by saying at one point that works were required for salvation and then at another point he says that David was saved apart from works. In the same book Stam also recognized that justification "apart from the Law" has always been in operation. He makes the following comments on Paul's words at Romans 3:21:

"Mark well, he says that this righteousness, graciously imputed to the believer, is now 'manifested.' The principle of righteousness apart from the Law had always been in operation, but it had not yet been 'manifested' or 'testified' " (Ibid., p.75).​

Stam also states that Abraham's work as an "expression of faith" in submitting to the rite of circumcision "did not justify Abraham":

"Thus the covenant of circumcision had nothing whatever to do with Abraham's justification before God. He was justified by faith alone...Circumcision did not justify Abraham. It was merely a 'sign,' a token; 'a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised' " (Ibid., pp.90-91).​

Stam also wrote this:

"Finally, we would emphasize the fact that 'in the nature of the case' men born of Adam must be born or begotten again to be saved...The sinner is born anew and receives the life of the Spirit as the Spirit implants the Word in his heart, so that he accepts it by faith: James 1:18: "OF HIS OWN WILL BEGAT HE US WITH THE WORD OF TRUTH..." (Stam, TRUE Spiritually, [Berean Literature Foundation, Fourth Printing, 1984], p.34).​

 

[Danoh]

Cornelius Stam was evidently confused about how the Jews who lived under the law were saved. He wrote:

"Now in the cases of Abraham and David, works were required for salvation, whereas in our case works for salvation are distinctly forbidden..." (Stam, Things That Differ, p.17).​

But here Stam teached the opposite about David:

"In Rom. 4:1-8 the Apostle uses Abraham and David to demonstrate the validity of his argument for justification by faith, apart from works" (Stam, Commentary on the Epistle of Paul to the Romans, p.87).​

So Stam shows his confusion by saying at one point that works were required for salvation and then at another point he says that David was saved apart from works. In the same book Stam also recognized that justification "apart from the Law" has always been in operation. He makes the following comments on Paul's words at Romans 3:21:

"Mark well, he says that this righteousness, graciously imputed to the believer, is now 'manifested.' The principle of righteousness apart from the Law had always been in operation, but it had not yet been 'manifested' or 'testified' " (Ibid., p.75).​

Stam also states that Abraham's work as an "expression of faith" in submitting to the rite of circumcision "did not justify Abraham":

"Thus the covenant of circumcision had nothing whatever to do with Abraham's justification before God. He was justified by faith alone...Circumcision did not justify Abraham. It was merely a 'sign,' a token; 'a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised' " (Ibid., pp.90-91).​

Stam also wrote this:

"Finally, we would emphasize the fact that 'in the nature of the case' men born of Adam must be born or begotten again to be saved...The sinner is born anew and receives the life of the Spirit as the Spirit implants the Word in his heart, so that he accepts it by faith: James 1:18: "OF HIS OWN WILL BEGAT HE US WITH THE WORD OF TRUTH..." (Stam, TRUE Spiritually, [Berean Literature Foundation, Fourth Printing, 1984], p.34).​

Jerry ignores that Stam, although often (not always but often) way above O'Hair and Baker in his understanding of many things, was nevertheless not above every so often reasoning a thing through his own reasoning about it, when greatly stuck as to how to do so through the passages in light of the Two-Fold Distinction: Prophecy and Mystery he nevertheless did more than any other man during his time, to recover the truth of.

These men simply were neither the Lord, nor the Apostle of the Gentiles He revealed this distinction to, in all its radiance.

As has been the history throughout, some later men will be able to go further, from the findings of those great men.

All depends on their actual agenda.

And hounding all within Mid-Acts; attempting to shame them into some long outdated understanding, and that "unto death" do we part, as Jerry insists on doing, only proves he is not the guardian of Paul's Mystery Grace he would force down other's throats.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you now saying that this is not true?

1 John 1 KJV
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

It is either true or false.
What say you, Jerry?
Is that verse true or false?

I already answered you about that verse and ignored what I said:

In regard to 1 John 1:9, those words are addressed to believers and not unbelievers.

Or perhaps you want to argue that if an unsaved person will do nothing but confess his sins then he will be cleansed from all unrighteousness?

In order for an unsaved person to have his sins remitted and be saved he must believe in the Lord Jesus:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

Now please answer this simple question:

Do you tell unsaved people that if they will confess their sins then they will be cleansed from all unrighteousness?

Do you?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Although Cornelius Stam was confused in regard to how the Jews who lived under the law was saved he did not teach that some believing Jews were excluded from the Body of Christ in the firsr century:

"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).​

Stam also said this about the book of Hebrews:

"Further, if the Hebrew believers were meant to go on in their 'kingdom' calling and program, and were 'not' to become partakers of the higher blessings of the dispensation of grace, as some teach, then neither Paul, nor anyone else would have been in the will of God in writing such an epistle to them as that which we are now considering" (Stam, The Epistle to the Hebrews [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1991], 34).​

 

[Danoh]

Although Cornelius Stam was confused in regard to how the Jews who lived under the law was saved he did not teach that some believing Jews were excluded from the Body of Christ in the firsr century:

"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).​

Stam also said this about the book of Hebrews:

"Further, if the Hebrew believers were meant to go on in their 'kingdom' calling and program, and were 'not' to become partakers of the higher blessings of the dispensation of grace, as some teach, then neither Paul, nor anyone else would have been in the will of God in writing such an epistle to them as that which we are now considering" (Stam, The Epistle to the Hebrews [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1991], 34).​

Lol, Jerry the incompetent know it all - who could not even discern what STP and heir were going on about as to Romans 1 even when it was then laid out to him - is somehow a credible witness of where men like Anderson, O'Hair, Baker, Stam, and or his delusional Neo-MAD are off or not.

Fact is, when Jerry is right, its the issue of even a ten year old calendar being right once, every eleven years.

Man, talk about an awful batting average, lol

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Can't wait til Jerry is either banned forever, gets a life, or drops dead.

You are out of control and obviously in need of professional help.

I will no longer respond to anything new which you say because my remarks just make your condition worse.

I pray in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ that you will seek help.