Let me try again......Faith

[Clete]

I was wondering when someone was going to day this.
I never said that when I believed that I was miserable or fed a bunch of lies; I just didn't feel like it was relevant any longer. But how can you or anyone else challenge my faith, when I used to believe or the people that led me to the Lord? How can I distinguish between True Christianity and I Can't Believe it's not Christianity?

What does your feelings have to do with it? Don't you know that your feelings can lie to you? It is not wise to make decision based on how we feel but rather we should make a decision based on what it right and then allow our feelings to catch up in due time. But to answer your question you can distinguish true Christianity from the load of crap that most churches in America feed their mindless congregations by having a relationship with the living God first of all and also by studying His word with genuine intellectual honesty.
If you think that Christianity is a ‘way of life’, or that it has to do with a set of rules or that its about being obedient to a God who controls everything that happens (including your disobedience) or any other such nonsense, you’ve not rejected true Christianity but more likely have rejected doctrines based on the raving lunatic irrationalities of pagan Greek philosophy.

The Bible and therefore Christianity, like all truth is rational. Indeed that is almost a tautology because if a thing is irrational it is false by definition thus, in spite of the prevailing Christian mindset that demands the acceptance of antinomy (theological contradiction), Christianity, if it is true must be rational (i.e. not self-contradictory). And if you have rejected something that someone called ‘Christian’ because it is irrational then either your thought process that led you to the conclusion that it is irrational is flawed or else what you rejected was not true Christianity.

But if faith (the faith to believe in the True God) is a gift, why would it be so hard to understand and put into practice?

All good things are from God and so it is accurate to call faith a gift from God but it is not a gift in the sense that Calvinists would have you believe. It's not as though it is impossible for you to have faith until God comes and sprinkles some faith dust on your head and makes you have faith. God has made all men capable of faith and provided more than enough information to make His existence obvious to anyone who isn't willfully blind and therefore all men are without excuse.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,​

If faith is based on evidence, then I should be able to test it, shouldn't I? How would I do that?

Faith is not based on evidence but the evidence is based on faith.
Let me ask you a question. Generally speaking, how would you (you personally) go about verifying the veracity of a truth claim? It makes no difference what the truth claim is, just any statement that someone is claiming to be true, how would you go about determining if it was in fact true?

Nothing? Surely you don't mean 'nothing', but maybe nothing in True Christianity?

Oh yes! I do indeed mean nothing; nothing at all whatsoever. Without faith nothing can be known at all, NOTHING (including the fact that without faith nothing can be known).

I'd be more than happy to discuss faith or anything else, but if I have a question I will ask it, and if it seems I am being argumentative, then I apologize in advance.

I don't mind arguments; it's intentional intellectual dishonesty that I can't tolerate.

It's just that if I see a flaw in someone's reasoning I want to make sure it's a flaw! I am certainly not above admitting when I am wrong (and have done so in another thread), but if you can explain faith in a way that makes sense, I'd love to hear it, because I just cannot reconcile Christianity and reason.

Excellent! We are fixing to find out whether this is truly your attitude because if you'll answer the question above I believe that I can go from there and establish not only that Christianity and reason can coexist but that Christianity is in fact the very foundation of reason.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Fensanity]

Earnest, what flaws in "Christianity" made u leave it? I mean besides, "Christians" and "Churches" and "Denominations"...
what scriptures were not real to you?

what is out right false to you? i thot i read a post of yours, that u on some level beleave Jesus existed and did some miraculous things (but becuz he was reincarnated a few times and obtained a lvl of enlightenment --or something similar to that...)

are you trying through your own life trying to find some spiritual feeling (can't think of a better word) that u can relate to one Ideology to follow? and than if you can find that link, than u will know that, that is the way? (im just trying to see were u r coming from.)

anyways let me know
thanks!

 

[EarnestBorg9]

not having a direction isn't a bad thing... it's a good thing not having direction is having direction... there's the yin and yang again... the dualism... you see it everywhere, the black and white, god and satan, ahura mazda and angra mainyu, when you meet Buddha on the road, KILL HIM! you can't get away from it man, it doesn't matter how hard they hit you on the head with a 2000 year old book.

It's like you are reading my mind; I DO believe this way, but never articulated it before.

my family isn't on to this yet, i think my dad's getting close. except for here i keep it to myself, i wait until everyone is in bed before i start my "rituals". not having a community can be rough. i lost a lot of friends when i rejected christianity.

Especially here in Columbus Ohio, it's not really the Bible Belt, but I think it's pretty close. I understand Lavey's views on ritual, and that physically doing something makes the thing that you believe 'real'. I cannot go skyclad, though! Too cold!
Seriously, I have read the writings of AC, many Buddhist authors and Christian authors (I reviewed CS Lewis Mere Christianity for a believer friend and he simply stopped talking to me about it!)

not sure if the rituals have a metaphysical effect at all. i have a strong sense that my ancestors are watching... could be wrong of course (admitting the possibility of being wrong is important, you won't find that much around here) , but i feel it.

Yeah, I always leave the possibility open even as an atheist, that I could be wrong. Even now, I realize that even though you have explained 'pagan' in a great way, I wonder if it's perhaps just another way to believe in God. Not sure if I believe in God at all anymore.

spirit money is exactly what is sounds like. it's chinese in origin i believe... it's money, oftentimes in the tens and hundreds of thousands that you burn for your ancestors so they have currency in the afterlife. it's also called Hell Notes, but the chinese were only introduced to hell through christians.

Why do spirits in the afterlife need money? I have never heard of it, but I will look it up tonight.

making it up is the way to go! that's what the writers of the bible did! that's what the writers of the avesta and the vedas did! every spiritual creature should have their own bible. no one can teach you about god but yourself, you won't learn it from a pastor, and you can't teach it to your children. you have to experience it for yourself, and if you don't, you don't, that's fine, because there's nothing in reality that dictates that "god" even requires acknowledgement.

Self learning; I like that. But how can I know (or can I?) that 'truth (in the spirtual sense) is? While I think that spiritual truth is relative to a point, is there a way to know?

you're very welcome, and it's a pleasure to meet someone here who doesn't think i'm a total loser for what i believe. feel free to think i'm a total loser because of the way i act
and yes, i do consider myself a pagan, but i think anyone who believes in some form of a higher power is a pagan, that goes for christians too.

I don't think that you or anyone here is a loser (yet!), but I don't like to throw around insults except to those that are deserving because I think that if you speak harm, it will come back to you, sort of like karma, as I understand it.

 

[Fensanity]

Hey Allsmiles,

whats your purpose in life?

 

[allsmiles]

Hey Allsmiles,

whats your purpose in life?

to make a success of myself and to be a benefit to, my family, my friends, co-workers, and all others who come into my life. to harm those who would harm me. to love those who have loved, love and will love me. to hate those who hate me. to venerate my ancestors so that they see their lives being lived through me and thus live in both the spirit world and the physical realm. to find an axis mundi, to cling to it, and to use it to transmigrate to the plain beyond this.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

Can anyone tell me what the yellow stars mean below my name?
Thanks again all, for replying to me, I do appreciate it.

 

[Lovejoy]

Can anyone tell me what the yellow stars mean below my name?
Thanks again all, for replying to me, I do appreciate it.

That is the countdown 'till you avatar blows up. Or they indicate how many posts you have made. I forget which.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

to make a success of myself and to be a benefit to, my family, my friends, co-workers, and all others who come into my life. to harm those who would harm me. to love those who have loved, love and will love me. to hate those who hate me. to venerate my ancestors so that they see their lives being lived through me and thus live in both the spirit world and the physical realm. to find an axis mundi, to cling to it, and to use it to transmigrate to the plain beyond this.

That's a great way to live, although I not sure I could enact revenge on someone, whether they deserved it or not, since many times I thought that I had been wrong, and later discovered that I was the one wrong OR that it was simply my perception.
I looked up axis mundi, and understand it to be a 'center'.

 

[Fensanity]

whats up Allsmiles,

how do you make a success of yourself? do u mean like becoming famous, making lots of money, a good job-good car-good family? ect ect ect

or is it by being a benefit to others? well other except for those who hate you.

let me know, thanks

 

[EarnestBorg9]

That is the countdown 'till you avatar blows up. Or they indicate how many posts you have made. I forget which.

lol!
Let's hope it's posts!
It is obviously slow at work, that's why I have been posting so much.
I am amazed that no one has started name calling yet! I realize that I have been difficult and please know that that was never my intention. I have an honest seeking heart, and allsmiles has said some really things that I already believe.
Lovejoy, I DID ask Jesus to reveal Himself last night. And this morning, but again I felt nothing, received no insight or experienced anything.
Could be that my faith was lacking.

 

[Fensanity]

earnestborg9 post number 22! u didnt miss it did you?

ok, ill be back in a few hours

peace

 

[Aimiel]

Yellow stars are tens of posts, etc., etc.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

earnestborg9 post number 22! u didnt miss it did you?

ok, ill be back in a few hours

peace

Ooops, I did and yours right below it! Clete made some very points, and I am off as well. Since I want to devote some time to my reply, I will post in a few hours.
Thanks for pointing it out, I appreciate it.

 

[allsmiles]

whats up Allsmiles,

how do you make a success of yourself? do u mean like becoming famous, making lots of money, a good job-good car-good family? ect ect ect

or is it by being a benefit to others? well other except for those who hate you.

let me know, thanks

those are all good questions, and i won't know until i know. it's very basic, it's very conceptual, at least it is at this point. i'm just trying to stay at a job for longer than 6 or 7 months right now:chuckle:

i dunno man, i want a woman, i want kids, i want my own place and a couple of cars, some dogs, cats, pigs and maybe a horse or two.

in short, i need to win the lottery.

 

[Lovejoy]

lol!
Let's hope it's posts!
It is obviously slow at work, that's why I have been posting so much.
I am amazed that no one has started name calling yet! I realize that I have been difficult and please know that that was never my intention. I have an honest seeking heart, and allsmiles has said some really things that I already believe.
Lovejoy, I DID ask Jesus to reveal Himself last night. And this morning, but again I felt nothing, received no insight or experienced anything.
Could be that my faith was lacking.

Take your time. "Knock, and the door will be opened, etc." I have faith in you and Christ, so it will happen. Maybe not just what you are expecting, but it will happen.

 

[Clete]

Lovejoy, I DID ask Jesus to reveal Himself last night. And this morning, but again I felt nothing, received no insight or experienced anything.
Could be that my faith was lacking.

This is more strong evidence that what you rejected had very little to do with the real Christian faith. Christianity is not mysticism. Do not expect to feel something or to be given some insight by magic or something like that. God is not a magician. If you ever see it, it will be because you chose to use your mind and had the courage to believe what reason demands must be true.
I look forward to your response to my previous post.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[EarnestBorg9]

What does your feelings have to do with it? Don't you know that your feelings can lie to you? It is not wise to make decision based on how we feel but rather we should make a decision based on what it right and then allow our feelings to catch up in due time.

I used the word 'feel', because I did not know what else to use, but I know that emotions and feelings can certianly lead one astray.

But to answer your question you can distinguish true Christianity from the load of crap that most churches in America feed their mindless congregations by having a relationship with the living God first of all and also by studying His word with genuine intellectual honesty.

Whose to say that other churches are feeding their congregations a load of crap? Before I can study God's word, am I not obligated to believe it first? How can I believe unless I am a believer? See, this is the circular argument that I was talking about earlier; it seems that belief (faith) in the biblical God is dependent on belief in the biblical God!

If you think that Christianity is a ‘way of life’, or that it has to do with a set of rules or that its about being obedient to a God who controls everything that happens (including your disobedience) or any other such nonsense, you’ve not rejected true Christianity but more likely have rejected doctrines based on the raving lunatic irrationalities of pagan Greek philosophy.

I have never met nor heard nor read any words of a 'raving lunatic irrational pagan'. Nor do I believe that Christianity is a way of life, but I DO believe that Christianity is supposed to be demonstrated in our life, as does all philosophies and beliefs that one adheres to.

The Bible and therefore Christianity, like all truth is rational. Indeed that is almost a tautology

Almost? I wouls say that it is most certainly a tautology. It is circular and as a result is devoid of logic and reason.

because if a thing is irrational it is false by definition thus, in spite of the prevailing Christian mindset that demands the acceptance of antinomy (theological contradiction), Christianity, if it is true must be rational (i.e. not self-contradictory).

Antinomy is "a contradiction between two statements that seem equally reasonable" (thanks Google for the clarification). Something that is determined to be irrational does not make it false; simply irrational. If someone cuts me off on the highway and I tell him he's 'number one', I am being irrational, but not false, for at that moment in time I think that he is a butthead based on his total disregard of me and my car.

And if you have rejected something that someone called ‘Christian’ because it is irrational then either your thought process that led you to the conclusion that it is irrational is flawed or else what you rejected was not true Christianity.

Why only two options? Here are some more:
C) Christianity (as you understand it) could be false and by extension the bible false;
D) Christianity (but NOT as you understand it) could be one of several correct paths;
E) You and I could be talking about the exact same thing but using different terminology

All good things are from God and so it is accurate to call faith a gift from God but it is not a gift in the sense that Calvinists would have you believe. It's not as though it is impossible for you to have faith until God comes and sprinkles some faith dust on your head and makes you have faith. God has made all men capable of faith and provided more than enough information to make His existence obvious to anyone who isn't willfully blind and therefore all men are without excuse.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,​

That does make sense, thanks for the clarification. However, what is 'willfully blind'? In other words, if I see something that is true, lets say that gravity exists, and I jump off a building with nothing to land on, not cables attached to me and I die, then I can see that as willfully ignorant. But in not seeing a person's faith in the same way is a matter of perception and perspective, no?

Faith is not based on evidence but the evidence is based on faith.
Let me ask you a question. Generally speaking, how would you (you personally) go about verifying the veracity of a truth claim? It makes no difference what the truth claim is, just any statement that someone is claiming to be true, how would you go about determining if it was in fact true?

Good question. Depending the claim, I would research the it. I would go to the source, ask people that are involved in the claim, try to understand it the best that I could. I would not be dismissive and hand wave the claim away.

Oh yes! I do indeed mean nothing; nothing at all whatsoever. Without faith nothing can be known at all, NOTHING (including the fact that without faith nothing can be known).

I know that I am sitting in a chair, typing at a keyboard. I do not have faith that I am; I can rely on my sanity to know that I am not making it up, I can feel the keys (and see and hear them; Isuppose I could taste and smell them if I were so inclined) and I can feel the chair under my rear, I can also see it.
In no way was faith involved in coming to the conclusion that I am sitting in a chair, typing at a keyboard.

I don't mind arguments; it's intentional intellectual dishonesty that I can't tolerate.

I hope that I am not coming acorss as being intentionally intellectual dishonest; if I should write something this appears to be in conflict, please point it out, I am not at all in habit of lying.

Excellent! We are fixing to find out whether this is truly your attitude because if you'll answer the question above I believe that I can go from there and establish not only that Christianity and reason can coexist but that Christianity is in fact the very foundation of reason.

Ask of me what you will and I will answer your questions to the best of my ability.

It may be in the morning though, I have to go out of town tonight and feed a friends' dogs and pet skunk. That's right, her name is Tinker and it is awesome hold a creature that one rarely gets to see in person. Her stink thing has been removed, thank goodness.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

This is more strong evidence that what you rejected had very little to do with the real Christian faith. Christianity is not mysticism. Do not expect to feel something or to be given some insight by magic or something like that. God is not a magician. If you ever see it, it will be because you chose to use your mind and had the courage to believe what reason demands must be true.
I look forward to your response to my previous post.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I see shat you mean, but do you mean that you felt nothing when you were saved? I did; I felt like a great weight had been removed from my back, I felt relaxed and euphoric. It wasn't in a church with anyone, it was in my bedroom. I said a prayer, much like the one I prayed several times when I started to doubt and 'it' happened.

 

[Lovejoy]

This is more strong evidence that what you rejected had very little to do with the real Christian faith. Christianity is not mysticism. Do not expect to feel something or to be given some insight by magic or something like that. God is not a magician. If you ever see it, it will be because you chose to use your mind and had the courage to believe what reason demands must be true.
I look forward to your response to my previous post.

Resting in Him,
Clete

"Mystical" theology has been the origin of the worst herecies of the modern era. JW (in the Millerites), LDS, etc, all claimed to be able to go beyond the Word based on private, mystical revelation. I am in favor of the "Mind of Christ" concept of faith moving us to greater understanding (I like faith as a form of epistemology) of what has been given us. However, relying on estatic pseudo-spritual moments is nonsense, and dangerous. Greeks used to get that through the use of wine, for goodness sake. I did have a great deal of emotions, powerful ones, at the beginning of my journey, but they fade as you mature. Those relying on them will drop away, as well.

God wants an honest choice, made in a sober mind. I think that is important.

 

[EarnestBorg9]

Earnest, what flaws in "Christianity" made u leave it? I mean besides, "Christians" and "Churches" and "Denominations"...
what scriptures were not real to you?

Very good question!
In no particular order:
1 - Why and how can a loving, perfect God even create a place of eternal punishment that even one of his children could go to (whether by their indecision or my His will)? An eternity for simply not believing (or according to some, just believing is not enough) seems incredibly UNjust

2 - The age old question, "Why is there evil in the world"? God cannot be bound, if he is in fact God, but anthing; so, :
A) Can he destroy evil? If yes, then why doesn't He? If no, then He is not all powerful and unworthy of our (and my) worship and adoration
B) Does He want to destroy evil but cannot? If yes, then He is not all powerful and unworthy of our (and my) worship and adoration
C) Does not care to care to but can destroy evil? If yes then He is the definition of evil; the power to stop injustice and pain yet does nothing to do so is evil.

Let's start with those.

what is out right false to you? i thot i read a post of yours, that u on some level beleave Jesus existed and did some miraculous things (but becuz he was reincarnated a few times and obtained a lvl of enlightenment --or something similar to that...)

Yeah, if Jesus existed as portrayed in the bible, then it is entirely possible that he was a Master, but not God. I think it's possible that we can all attain such power.

are you trying through your own life trying to find some spiritual feeling (can't think of a better word) that u can relate to one Ideology to follow? and than if you can find that link, than u will know that, that is the way? (im just trying to see were u r coming from.)

I guess thats as good a way to put than anything. I do feel a spirtiual void in my life, and maybe its simply a need to be part of something bigger than the what I have; I don't know. But, something brought me here and everyone has been gracious and very open and I am learning, believe it or not.