Theology Club: Mid-Acts in 300 AD

[Danoh]

Romans 11:

25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.
29. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

2 Timothy 1:

13. Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
14. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
15. This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me;

The following, by Mid-Acts Historian, Bryan Ross, is a study in: a] a video; b] a pdf; and c] a ppt, of saints who were Mid-Acts in key views, as far back as 300 AD.

Its interesting; they faced the same, exact lies, slander, mis-reading into things, and repeatedly parroted misinformation resulting out of that against the Mid-Acts Perspective that we still see today.

The only difference being; they were slaughtered by the very individuals those against the Mid-Acts Perspective today are the descendants of in their same, exact, handed down ignorance of wisdom in its own conceits.

http://gracehistoryproject.blogspot.com/2015/05/supplemental-lesson-1-paulicians-and.html

By the way; note what is written on Jordan's chalkboard in his own hand, as recommended reading - Stam's "Things That Differ," "Acts Dispensationally Considered, Vol. 1," and "Our Great Commission."

This, after all these years that Jordan has continued to grow at the amazingly phenomenal rate he has.

As in all fields of endeavor, it's always the basics that the best in any filed will point others too.

Anyway, enjoy the video. Ross tends to be a bit melodramatic at times, but his point is still one worth seriously taking to heart.

 

[Tambora]

Thanks for the link.
Watching it now.

 

[Danoh]

Thanks for the link.
Watching it now.

Any thoughts; be they yea, or nay...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Any thoughts; be they yea, or nay...

Bryan Ross only knows Neo-MAD teaching. He is so uninformed that he thinks the teaching of Sir Robert Anderson was the basis of Acts 28 dispensationalism.

 

[musterion]

Anderson and Bullinger were contemporaries, I believe. Did Anderson ever publicly address Bullinger's alleged heresies? If he has I'm unaware of it, but I've not read everything he ever wrote.

 

[Danoh]

Bryan Ross only knows Neo-MAD teaching. He is so uninformed that he thinks the teaching of Sir Robert Anderson was the basis of Acts 28 dispensationalism.

You'd be surprised where they agree with your understanding of some things.

But that is all I will share with you in their defense.

Bad enough you will turn that much into one more means of tooting your own horn.

Twist away, Jerry...you are like the child as yet toilet trained, going from thread to thread to leaving behind your mess...

 

[Danoh]

Jerry can't read...

http://www.gracelifebiblechurch.com/SundaySchool/ChurchHistory/2012/102112/102112SSNotes.pdf

http://www.gracelifebiblechurch.com/sundayschool/churchhistory/2012/102812/102812ssnotes.pdf

 

[glorydaz]

You'd be surprised where they agree with your understanding of some things.

But that is all I will share with you in their defense.

Bad enough you will turn that much into one more means of tooting your own horn.

Twist away, Jerry...you are like the child as yet toilet trained, going from thread to thread to leaving behind your mess...

Just like God's UNtruth. Both bound up with pride. :sigh:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Twist away, Jerry...you are like the child as yet toilet trained, going from thread to thread to leaving behind your mess...

Those in the Neo-MAD camp teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works. So they do not believe what is written here:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

It is you and those like you who are not yet toilet trained and continue to leave your mess behind. And all because you pick and choose which verses you believe and which ones you refuse to believe.

You are stinking up the place!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Just like God's UNtruth. Both bound up with pride.

Do you believe like those in the Neo-MAD camp, that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Anderson and Bullinger were contemporaries, I believe. Did Anderson ever publicly address Bullinger's alleged heresies? If he has I'm unaware of it, but I've not read everything he ever wrote.

One thing which Anderson did write is a reference to a dispensation which started during then Mid Acts period of time:

"Who can fail to mark the contrast between the earlier and the later chapters of the Acts of the Apostles? Measured by years the period they embrace is comparatively brief; but morally the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age. And such is the case. A new dispensation had begun, and the book of Acts covers historically the period of the transition" (Anderson, The Silence of God [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1978], 49).​

There is nothing in Acts 28 dispensationalism which even hints of a dispensation which began during the Mid-Acts period.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry can't read...

No, it is Bryan Ross who cannot understand what he reads. He has been given the following quote from Anderson's book and he has nothing to say about it:

"Who can fail to mark the contrast between the earlier and the later chapters of the Acts of the Apostles? Measured by years the period they embrace is comparatively brief; but morally the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age. And such is the case. A new dispensation had begun, and the book of Acts covers historically the period of the transition" (Anderson, The Silence of God [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1978], 49).​

I doubt if Bryan Ross has ever been able to get through any of Anderson's books because they are too deep for his limited understanding of the Bible!

 

[DAN P]

Bryan Ross only knows Neo-MAD teaching. He is so uninformed that he thinks the teaching of Sir Robert Anderson was the basis of Acts 28 dispensationalism.

Hi , Jerry , so explain what you mean by Neo MAD ??

Do you have verses as to who began this new fad ??

dan p

 

[Danoh]

One thing which Anderson did write is a reference to a dispensation which started during then Mid Acts period of time:

"Who can fail to mark the contrast between the earlier and the later chapters of the Acts of the Apostles? Measured by years the period they embrace is comparatively brief; but morally the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age. And such is the case. A new dispensation had begun, and the book of Acts covers historically the period of the transition" (Anderson, The Silence of God [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1978], 49).​

There is nothing in Acts 28 dispensationalism which even hints of a dispensation which began during the Mid-Acts period.

You are ignorantly blind of what you read as a drunk bat with a double blindfold on, in a loud cave after having been spun around a dozen times - Anderson was talking about what he had erroneously referred to as "the Pentecostal Dispensation" that he asserted began at Acts 2 and ran to Acts 28.

"It has been further argued that, so far as their evidential force was concerned, the "Christian miracles" were for that favoured people "of whom, as concerning the flesh, Christ came." And if this be well founded we shall be prepared to find that so long as the kingdom was being preached to Jews, miracles abounded, but that when the gospel appealed to the heathen world, miracles lost their prominence, and soon entirely ceased.

"The question remains whether the sacred record will confirm this supposition. Who can fail to mark the contrast between the earlier and the later chapters of the Acts of the Apostles? Measured by years the period they embrace is comparatively brief; but morally the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age. And such is in fact the case. A new dispensation has begun, and the Book of the Acts covers historically the period of the transition. "the Jew first" is stamped on every page of it.

"The Saviour's prayer upon the Cross had secured for the favoured nation a respite from judgment. And the forgiveness asked for carried with it a right to priority in the proclamation of the great amnesty. When "the apostle of the circumcision," by express revelation, brought the gospel to the Gentiles they were relegated to a position akin to that formerly held by the "proselytes of the gate."

Note how Anderson misunderstands Acts 13 and 28:

"And even "the apostle of the Gentiles" addressed himself first, in every place he visited, to the children of his own people. And this not from prejudice, but by Divine appointment. "It was necessary," he declared at Pisidian Antioch, "that the word of God should first be spoken to you." Even at Rome, deeply though he longed to visit the Christians there, his first care was to summon "the chief of the Jews," and to them "he testified the
kingdom of God."

And not until the testimony had been rejected by the favoured people did the word go forth, "The salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and they will hear it."

"But, it will be objected, the Epistle to the Romans had been already written. True; but this only makes the narrative of the Acts still more significant.

"The special and distinctive position enjoyed by the Jew was a main feature of the economy then about to close."

- Silence of God, p. 19, 20.

http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/A/Anderson, Robert - The Silence of God (b).pdf


Thus, O'Hair's words against Anderson's errors:

"Let us not consider this learned brother as final authority, or his exegesis as infallible, neither let us be prejudiced by the teaching of any other so-called “big” Bible teachers who insist that the day of Pentecost ushered in the “dispensation of the mystery” mentioned in Ephesians 3:9, but let us receive their testimonies and search the Scriptures daily. It is rather difficult to believe that the “dispensation of the mystery”, with reference to the untraceable riches of Christ among the Gentiles, began on a Jewish feast day before the Apostle to the Gentiles was converted and commissioned, even seven years before Peter was authorized, by the “sheet of unclean creatures”, to preach the gospel of the circumcision to one respectable God-fearing Gentile, who apparently was an uncircumcised proselyte."

Part 2: Gleanings From the Book of Acts Posted By Pastor J. C. O'Hair On October 5, 1935 @ 11:30 am In 1935.10 - Bible Study For Bereans - October 1935

https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/gleanings-from-the-book-of-acts-3/

If that is not the Acts 28 Position O'Hair was writing against, as to Anderson's errors, I don't know what is.

You, Jerry Shugart, once more prove yourself clueless.

 

[patrick jane]

You are ignorantly blind of what you read as a drunk bat with a double blindfold on, in a loud cave after having been spun around a dozen times - Anderson was talking about what he had erroneously referred to as "the Pentecostal Dispensation" that he asserted began at Acts and ran to Acts 28.

"It has been further argued that, so far as their evidential force was concerned, the "Christian miracles" were for that favoured people "of whom, as concerning the flesh, Christ came." And if this be well founded we shall be prepared to find that so long as the kingdom was being preached to Jews, miracles abounded, but that when the gospel appealed to the heathen world, miracles lost their prominence, and soon entirely ceased.

"The question remains whether the sacred record will confirm this supposition. Who can fail to mark the contrast between the earlier and the later chapters of the Acts of the Apostles? Measured by years the period they embrace is comparatively brief; but morally the latter portion of the narrative seems to belong to a different age. And such is in fact the case. A new dispensation has begun, and the Book of the Acts covers historically the period of the transition. "the Jew first" is stamped on every page of it.

"The Saviour's prayer upon the Cross had secured for the favoured nation a respite from judgment. And the forgiveness asked for carried with it a right to priority in the proclamation of the great amnesty. When "the apostle of the circumcision," by express revelation, brought the gospel to the Gentiles they were
relegated to a position akin to that formerly held by the "proselytes of the gate."

Note how Anderson misunderstands Acts 13 and 28:

"And even "the apostle of the Gentiles" addressed himself first, in every place he visited, to the children of his own people. And this not from prejudice, but by Divine appointment. "It was necessary," he declared at Pisidian Antioch, "that the word of God should first be spoken to you." Even at Rome, deeply though he longed to visit the Christians there, his first care was to summon "the chief of the Jews," and to them "he testified the
kingdom of God."

And not until the testimony had been rejected by the favoured people did the word go forth, "The salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and they will hear it."

"But, it will be objected, the Epistle to the Romans had been already written. True; but this only makes the narrative of the Acts still more significant.

"The special and distinctive position enjoyed by the Jew was a main feature of the economy then about to close. "

- Silence of God, p. 19, 20.

http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/A/Anderson, Robert - The Silence of God (b).pdf


Thus, O'Hair's words against Anderson's errors:

"Let us not consider this learned brother as final authority, or his exegesis as infallible, neither let us be prejudiced by the teaching of any other so-called “big” Bible teachers who insist that the day of Pentecost ushered in the “dispensation of the mystery” mentioned in Ephesians 3:9, but let us receive their testimonies and search the Scriptures daily. It is rather difficult to believe that he “dispensation of the mystery”, with reference to the untraceable riches of Christ among the Gentiles, began on a Jewish feast day before the Apostle to the Gentiles was converted and commissioned, even seven years before Peter was authorized, by the “sheet of unclean creatures”, to preach the gospel of the circumcision to one respectable God-fearing Gentile, who apparently was an uncircumcised proselyte."

Part 2: Gleanings From the Book of Acts Posted By Pastor J. C. O'Hair On October 5, 1935 @ 11:30 am In 1935.10 - Bible Study For Bereans - October 1935

https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/gleanings-from-the-book-of-acts-3/

If that is not the Acts 28 Position O'Hair was writing against, as to Anderson's errors, I don't know what is.

You, Jerry Shugart, once more prove yourself clueless.

good post dahno -

 

[Shasta]

Those in the Neo-MAD camp teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works. So they do not believe what is written here:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

It is you and those like you who are not yet toilet trained and continue to leave your mess behind. And all because you pick and choose which verses you believe and which ones you refuse to believe.

You are stinking up the place!

I keep wondering why no one addresses your questions. They complain about your asking. They hurl insults but I have yet to see anyone answer you thoughtfully. I am saying this as a student of the Bible whose views differ from yours in many ways.

Why indeed should people not expect to be saved by believing in Jesus when that is what the Master promised? Does Jesus make promises He does not fulfill. Did He actually proclaim to the crowds "Believe in me, do a few works and after that you shall inherit eternal life"? Where is such a message recorded? Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be with him that day in paradise without doing any good works and without being baptized but solely on the basis of the thief's faith in Him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Thanks, Shasta!

Discussing these subject with those from the Neo-MAD camp is like climbing into a snake pit.

 

[Danoh]

I keep wondering why no one addresses your questions. They complain about your asking. They hurl insults but I have yet to see anyone answer you thoughtfully. I am saying this as a student of the Bible whose views differ from yours in many ways.

Why indeed should people not expect to be saved by believing in Jesus when that is what the Master promised? Does Jesus make promises He does not fulfill. Did He actually proclaim to the crowds "Believe in me, do a few works and after that you shall inherit eternal life"? Where is such a message recorded? Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be with him that day in paradise without doing any good works and without being baptized but solely on the basis of the thief's faith in Him.

You'll find out soon enough why he is dealt with the way he is. Debate him on some view you differ with him on.

 

[Shasta]

Romans 11:

25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.
29. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

2 Timothy 1:

13. Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
14. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
15. This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me;

The following, by Mid-Acts Historian, Bryan Ross, is a study in: a] a video; b] a pdf; and c] a ppt, of saints who were Mid-Acts in key views, as far back as 300 AD.

Its interesting; they faced the same, exact lies, slander, mis-reading into things, and repeatedly parroted misinformation resulting out of that against the Mid-Acts Perspective that we still see today.

The only difference being; they were slaughtered by the very individuals those against the Mid-Acts Perspective today are the descendants of in their same, exact, handed down ignorance of wisdom in its own conceits.

http://gracehistoryproject.blogspot.com/2015/05/supplemental-lesson-1-paulicians-and.html

By the way; note what is written on Jordan's chalkboard in his own hand, as recommended reading - Stam's "Things That Differ," "Acts Dispensationally Considered, Vol. 1," and "Our Great Commission."

This, after all these years that Jordan has continued to grow at the amazingly phenomenal rate he has.

As in all fields of endeavor, it's always the basics that the best in any filed will point others too.

Anyway, enjoy the video. Ross tends to be a bit melodramatic at times, but his point is still one worth seriously taking to heart.

Your movement will not gain any credibility by linking it to the Paulicans which were a splinter group, whose doctrines were by all accounts heretical. If you want to establish the antiquity and orthodoxy of MAD you have to show that the Greek Fathers believed it. This means starting with Ignatius in the First Century and going on as far as John Chrysostom but avoiding the polluted teachings of Augustine. The Paulicans were not the first Paul only group you know. The Marcionites held "Paul only" views for some of the same reasons MAD does. They even put together a canon of Paul only books. The Marcionites were universally considered heretical and their Bible, an aberration. Don't make claims to antiquity you cannot substantiate.

 

[Shasta]

You'll find out soon enough why he is dealt with the way he is. Debate him on some view you differ with him on.

I debated him for a long time a few years back. He is relentless and never gives an inch. At the same time he will listen and respond intelligently - as much as anyone around here does. No one is perfectly rational when dealing with beliefs they are emotionally invested in.

What I do not like is ad hominem attacks. Another thing I don't like is people who sit on the sidelines heckling and shooting off one-liners while refusing to engage. I usually avoid people who have a bitter rancorous spirit because they sometimes upset me. You and I disagree on probably more issues than you are aware but since you are cordial I feel I can talk to you.