ECT Robbing Peter to Pay Paul

[Anto9us]

I once started a thread of this title on TWO DIFFERENT BOARDS AT THE SAME TIME -- and got many interesting responses

But this one focuses more on PETER - we will get to Paul LATER -- just like what happens in the Bible in the book of Acts -- Paul comes much later than Peter.

Anyway -- PETER is viewed differently by Orthodox and Protestant brethren/cistern than he is by Catholic brethren/cistern -- I think that is obvious.

Anyway - here goes:



Let's look at the passages concerning Peter's GREAT CONFESSION in all 3 of the Synoptics - first Mark:

-------

Mar 8:27

And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do

men say that I am?

Mar 8:28

And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.

Mar 8:29

And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

Mar 8:30

And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

Mar 8:31

And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes,

and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Mar 8:32

And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.

Mar 8:33

But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the

things that be of God, but the things that be of men.


----------


And now Matthew:



Mat 16:13

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?


Mat 16:14

And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Mat 16:15

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?


Mat 16:16

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which

is in heaven.

Mat 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:19

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever

thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 16:20

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Mat 16:21

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief

priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mat 16:22

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mat 16:23

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God,

but those that be of men.

---------

And now Luke:


Luk 9:18

And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?

Luk 9:19

They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.

Luk 9:20

He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

Luk 9:21

And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

Luk 9:22

Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the

third day.

-----


http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4073&t=KJV

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4074&t=KJV

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=16&t=KJV#s=t_conc_945018

Okay - go look at these

PETROS is a masculine proper noun - Peter - i.e. "Thou art Peter/Petros/rock"

but the Greek word for ROCK is then referred to IN A DIFFERENT FORM: PETRA

petra is a

feminine noun

designated later -- IT is what is designated that Christ will build his church upon!!

i AM ONE OF THOSE WHO INTERPRET THAT THE 'BEDROCK' that Christ will "build His church upon"

is the FAITH -- the insight above and beyond what 'flesh and blood' can reveal to a person --

the bedrock of FAITH that can make a person realize that Christ is the Son of the Living God

THAT is the "petra" (feminine noun) UPON WHICH Christ would build His church

When things are given in all 3 synoptic gospels -- it is wise to look at them ALL in parallel

Only Matthew contains anything which smacks of a "Peter is the special one" idea

Peter is A ROCK - but not THE ROCK UPON Christ will build
(unless you want to accept that a feminine noun in Greek applies specifically to Peter the man)

Matthew contains the reference to Peter as "KeyHolder"; Luke and Mark do not

And Matthew, like Mark, contains the "rebuke of Jesus" which gets Peter the reply from Jesus that

ACTUALLY ADDRESSES PETER AS SATAN!

Well, Peter was GREAT -- Peter was HUMAN - Peter is the only one besides Jesus himelf who ACTUALLY WALKED ON WATER!!

HE WAS doing it FOR A WHILE -- TIL HE GOT DISTURBED BY HOW STRONG THE WIND WAS - then he started to sink

Peter is surely one of our greatest HEROES of the Faith.

But to say he is designated "leader on earth" of The Church -- and sittin there at the Pearly Gates with authority to let one person in and

turn another away -- I do not feel that is justified by the Bible.

It is not HERESY for Catholic brethren to believe such -- it is a "non-essential" of the Faith -- it is simply a matter

NEVER ACCEPTED BY ALL CHRISTIANS

that Peter and a formal list of his successors should be the "Vicar of Christ on earth".

Orthodox with a capital "O" never bought into that - Protestants never bought into it - Copts didn't either, as far as I know.

 

[chrysostom]

Orthodox with a capital "O" never bought into that -

Chrysostom did
and
he wrote to rome when he was banned from constantinople
constantinople thought it was in charge
but
it has fallen, fallen
and
it can be found no more

 

[Anto9us]

It's ISTANBUL now

what used to be Constantinople

and my son's girlfriend is going there right now
with other university students

Pray that they return safely in June, Chrysostom

Christian kids in a muslim country

I shudder at the thought

Frankly, Chrysostom --

ah'm skeert

 

[chrysostom]

It's ISTANBUL now

it's a mystery

 

[Anto9us]

Just please pray for my son's gf (who is Greek Orthodox) and the other Baylor students (prolly mainly Baptist) who are going to Istanbul Turkey

I know not the nature of this trip - whether it is simply academic - or includes some 'Christian mission' - I dunno

my son (21) will be here for the summer in a few days - he was here last summer

(his scholarship at Univ of Southern Mississippi does not cover summer school for him, but his gf does go to summer school at Baylor Univ in my town)

okay - put it on USER CP to get hacked into that I am in WACO TEXAS
ah don keer


WACO

We
Aint
Comin
Out


That bunch what burnt theyseffs up -- its a cult been around since I was a kid and before (which is WAY BACK)

some kind of weird '7th day Adventists on steroids '-- and no disparagement should be meant to regular 7th day Adventists - they are a legitimate denomination

anyway this cult was OUTSIDE OF TOWN - not really in Waco

but Waco gets the blame

David Koresh (aka "Vernon Howell") assumed leadership of the cult out there BY GUN BATTLE (same as the previous 3 'leaders)

He had set hizzeff up in position to vie for leadership by becoming the paramour of the aged widow of the previous leader who passed away

(the widow was many decades his senior -- Howell/Koresh made up for that later by having many under-age wives he took as leader -- as young as TEN)

anyway, as a kid my Dad told me the leader of this cult way back - - had all the people liquidate their assets -- give it all to HIM -- and had the people sittin out on some hill expectin the 2nd coming

while he absconded to South America with all the assets

like I say -- this was really OUTSIDE OF TOWN

Waco itself has many wonderful Prot churches - several Catholic churches - and one Greek Orthodox Church

 

[kayaker]

I admire your pursuing subtle distinctions between the Gospels, Anto9us. Noting translation differences can significantly shift the direction of themes: John 8:31 KJV v. John 8:31 NIV. Jesus was telling His believers (John 8:30 KJV) to keep listening, heads-up, realtime listen. This notion is lost in the NIV.

Catholicism inherently pursues the deification of Peter. Such worship Peter via antiquity as though Peter was the flesh progeny of Jesus... as though Jesus was just a 'side show' to bring Peter into the lime light through whom successions breathe flesh life into the RCC.

I toss out a very non-traditional interpretation:

John 21:15 KJV "So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs."​

Jesus was asking Peter if Peter loved Jesus more than Peter loved notoriety among his fellow disciples, "lovest thou me more than these?"

Peter was advised that evidence of Peter's love would be exemplified when Peter 'fed His lambs and sheep.' Said spiritual nourishment could only have been OT knowledge at the time Jesus made this 'command' to Peter. Yet, the RCC prioritizes and proclaims its 'divinity' from that time FORWARD via successions, over feeding His sheep.

Jesus gave explicit instructions to His disciples, "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 10:6 KJV), to whom Jesus was sent (Matthew 15:24 KJV). Who were the lost sheep? What made them lost? And, let's put those questions on the back burner, momentarily. Jesus sent His disciples: "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you (disciples): as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you (disciples)" (John 20:21 KJV). I'm not finding anywhere that Jesus' mission, or His disciples' mission ever changed focus.

Meanwhile, taking a look at the multilingual Holy Ghost inspired Gospel of Pentecost, Peter evidently wasn't standing among his peers who were speaking in multilingual tongues (Acts 2:14 KJV). Unlike Stephen, ad lib fluent in the OT (Acts 7), I gather the notion Peter 'resisted the Holy Ghost' (Acts 7:51 KJV, Acts 7:52 KJV), not speaking in tongues at Pentecost. But, I do gather the notion Peter and the gang were at a bit of a loss regarding the OT (Acts 4:13, 20). Furthermore, among all those explicitly identified folk present at Pentecost (Acts 2:8, 9, 10, 11, 12), there remained mockers (Acts 2:13 KJV), who were clearly not intended beneficiaries of the "truth" (John 8:32 KJV, John 8:33 KJV, John 8:43 KJV, John 8:45 KJV, John 8:46 KJV, John 8:47 KJV). Who explicitly were those mockers? Regardless, Peter took it upon himself to speak to them (Acts 2:14 KJV). Peter, evidently ashamed of speaking in tongues, then stood forth to address an audience who were not intended beneficiaries of the Gospel "truth" (John 8:32 KJV). Peter didn't speak in multilingual tongues feeding Jesus' sheep. Peter usurped the Holy Ghost, in my mind, addressing those mockers who were clearly not receptive to the Gospel "truth."

Therefore, I conclude (among other reasons) that Peter, in his quest for notoriety, founded HIS 'one historic Catholic Church' among a people who were not the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Explicitly and succinctly who were the lost sheep?
What made them lost?
Explicitly and succinctly who were those mockers?

kayaker

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Meanwhile, taking a look at the multilingual Holy Ghost inspired Gospel of Pentecost, Peter evidently wasn't standing among his peers who were speaking in multilingual tongues (Acts 2:14 KJV). Unlike Stephen, ad lib fluent in the OT (Acts 7), I gather the notion Peter 'resisted the Holy Ghost' (Acts 7:51 KJV, Acts 7:52 KJV), not speaking in tongues at Pentecost.

All the believers were together in one place and all of them began to speak in tongues on the day of Pentecost:

"And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4).​

The notion that Peter resisted the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost is contradicted by the Scriptures.

 

[Right Divider]

All the believers were together in one place and all of them began to speak in tongues on the day of Pentecost:

"And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4).​

The notion that Peter resisted the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost is contradicted by the Scriptures.

Diminishing Peters knowledge and understanding of what Jesus Christ taught him and the twelve is key to many peoples attempt to blur their ministry and Paul's.

 

[patrick jane]

Diminishing Peters knowledge and understanding of what Jesus Christ taught him and the twelve is key to many peoples attempt to blur their ministry and Paul's.

yep. i wonder who made that phrase up - robbing Peter to pay Paul ? TAXES - Catholic ?

wow that OP is long, i didn't attempt to read it - :chuckle:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Diminishing Peters knowledge and understanding of what Jesus Christ taught him and the twelve is key to many peoples attempt to blur their ministry and Paul's.

Yes, there are many who teach that the Apostles were in error for expecting the kingdom to be restored to Israel. They try to diminish the Apostle's knowledge by saying that the Apostles were in error when they expected the kingdom to be restored to Israel:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

yep. i wonder who made that phrase up - robbing Peter to pay Paul ? TAXES - Catholic ?

You might be on the right track.

 

[OCTOBER23]

Mark 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing.

Again the high priest asked him,

and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said,

Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mark 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

Luke 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son

of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

John 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord:

I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest;

but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

 

[OCTOBER23]

The Apostles went to the Ends of the World with the Message

and it is still going on via TV AND RADIO AND INTERNET.

Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.


Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch

the thief would come, (RAPTURE)

he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

 

[Anto9us]

I appreciate all the feedback on this here -- just as I appreciated feedback at two other boards about this.

Patrick Jane -- I am sorry OP was too long.

kayaker - I appreciate "non-traditional interpretations"

"Lovest thou me MORE THAN THESE?"

Yeah - what did He mean?

Do you love ME

MORE THAN YOU LOVE THESE OTHER GUYS?

OR

Do you love ME

MORE THAN THESE OTHER GUYS LOVE ME?

Do you love ME

MORE THAN "ALL OF THIS" -- I. E. -- BEING OUT ON THE WATER IN YOUR BOAT WITH ALL YOUR FISHING EXPERTISE

 

[patrick jane]

I once started a thread of this title on TWO DIFFERENT BOARDS AT THE SAME TIME -- and got many interesting responses

But this one focuses more on PETER - we will get to Paul LATER -- just like what happens in the Bible in the book of Acts -- Paul comes much ? later than Peter.

Anyway -- PETER is viewed differently by Orthodox and Protestant brethren/cistern than he is by Catholic brethren/cistern -- I think that is obvious.

Anyway - here goes:



Let's look at the passages concerning Peter's GREAT CONFESSION in all 3 of the Synoptics - first Mark:

-------

Mar 8:27

And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do

men say that I am?

Mar 8:28

And they answered, John the Baptist: but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.

Mar 8:29

And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

Mar 8:30

And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.

Mar 8:31

And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes,

and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Mar 8:32

And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.

Mar 8:33

But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the

things that be of God, but the things that be of men.


----------


And now Matthew:



Mat 16:13

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?


Mat 16:14

And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Mat 16:15

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?


Mat 16:16

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which

is in heaven.

Mat 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:19

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever

thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 16:20

Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Mat 16:21

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief

priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mat 16:22

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mat 16:23

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God,

but those that be of men.

---------

And now Luke:


Luk 9:18

And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?

Luk 9:19

They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.

Luk 9:20

He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

Luk 9:21

And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

Luk 9:22

Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the

third day.

-----


http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4073&t=KJV

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4074&t=KJV

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=16&t=KJV#s=t_conc_945018

Okay - go look at these

PETROS is a masculine proper noun - Peter - i.e. "Thou art Peter/Petros/rock"

but the Greek word for ROCK is then referred to IN A DIFFERENT FORM: PETRA

petra is a

feminine noun

designated later -- IT is what is designated that Christ will build his church upon!!

i AM ONE OF THOSE WHO INTERPRET THAT THE 'BEDROCK' that Christ will "build His church upon"

is the FAITH -- the insight above and beyond what 'flesh and blood' can reveal to a person --

the bedrock of FAITH that can make a person realize that Christ is the Son of the Living God

THAT is the "petra" (feminine noun) UPON WHICH Christ would build His church

When things are given in all 3 synoptic gospels -- it is wise to look at them ALL in parallel

Only Matthew contains anything which smacks of a "Peter is the special one" idea

Peter is A ROCK - but not THE ROCK UPON Christ will build
(unless you want to accept that a feminine noun in Greek applies specifically to Peter the man)

Matthew contains the reference to Peter as "KeyHolder"; Luke and Mark do not

And Matthew, like Mark, contains the "rebuke of Jesus" which gets Peter the reply from Jesus that

ACTUALLY ADDRESSES PETER AS SATAN!

Well, Peter was GREAT -- Peter was HUMAN - Peter is the only one besides Jesus himelf who ACTUALLY WALKED ON WATER!!

HE WAS doing it FOR A WHILE -- TIL HE GOT DISTURBED BY HOW STRONG THE WIND WAS - then he started to sink

Peter is surely one of our greatest HEROES of the Faith.

But to say he is designated "leader on earth" of The Church -- and sittin there at the Pearly Gates with authority to let one person in and

turn another away -- I do not feel that is justified by the Bible.

It is not HERESY for Catholic brethren to believe such -- it is a "non-essential" of the Faith -- it is simply a matter

NEVER ACCEPTED BY ALL CHRISTIANS

that Peter and a formal list of his successors should be the "Vicar of Christ on earth".

Orthodox with a capital "O" never bought into that - Protestants never bought into it - Copts didn't either, as far as I know.

it could have been shorter, and i'm not sure of your use of the word cistern - some valid points though -