Theology Club: The letter from Paul to the Romans

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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While discussing Obamacare and other topics with Mrs M at dinner, I find that she took some advice on the Bible. I said start at the beginning so the things The Lord Jesus Christ said make sense. I have mentioned if you want to get straight to it, read romans. She did.

She said it was right to the point, she said I don't understand how they can say he is saying something else. I said God chooses his words very carefully. They are without excuse. Then I mentioned TOL and "commentaries and other versions" because people don't like what it says. Are you going to get by on your righteousness, or submit to the righteousness of Christ?

The law reveals your sin.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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I will start my....commentary very soon. But in short, Paul says Israel fell. Paul says all have fallen short of righteousness. Paul says those that think they didn't fall short still are condemned because of Adam. The law proves you did fall short. The only path to righteousness is the act of the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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First is his audience.
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
13 Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles.
They are gentiles in Rome. Gentiles mean those that are not Israel. But they were gentiles that were proselytized to Israel as he says here:
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,
So these gentiles are going to be familiar to the promises made to Israel. They came to God through Israel, exalting her and keeping of the law. What Paul wants to do is share his gospel with these gentiles. His gospel is not the same as Israel’s good news. They have the same savior but a different ministry and mission. They in Rome knew they were to show their faith by their works. They did not have his good news.
15 So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also.

The audience is gentiles that were proselytes to Israel, they know of the law and they know they are required to keep it. They are called Jew as a result. And Paul is now ready to share his gospel with them.
 

SaulToPaul

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First is his audience.
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
13 Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles.
They are gentiles in Rome. Gentiles mean those that are not Israel. But they were gentiles that were proselytized to Israel as he says here:
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,
So these gentiles are going to be familiar to the promises made to Israel. They came to God through Israel, exalting her and keeping of the law. What Paul wants to do is share his gospel with these gentiles. His gospel is not the same as Israel’s good news. They have the same savior but a different ministry and mission. They in Rome knew they were to show their faith by their works. They did not have his good news.
15 So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also.

The audience is gentiles that were proselytes to Israel, they know of the law and they know they are required to keep it. They are called Jew as a result. And Paul is now ready to share his gospel with them.

Hence, they were grafted into the Olive Tree.

:up:

Paul wanted to get them from the Olive Tree (which would be hewn down soon) into the Body.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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The first thing Paul does is say what the gospel of Christ is. The gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation to everyone that believes. Paul couldn’t be clearer. The messiah, the Christ, is the savior. By no other means will you enter into life, including the circumcision who is required to keep everlasting covenants. Everlasting means everlasting.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Paul also states who it is for, and the order of receiving it. For the Jew first.

Paul then states the state of man. In his letter he states the state of man and sin. He shows how all are without excuse. In his letter he shows the fall of Israel, the raising up of gentiles to make Israel jealous.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things​
.


That is some powerful stuff. I believe Paul was speaking of some specific things and people, but it still applies to all. In fact he is calling people out that say the world is an accident. It reminds me of Knights thread on SETI and the “wow” piece. The heathen wants to claim a couple of random hits in a row is a sign of life, but the DNA code, a computer code, has no author. This is his invisible attributes. A creation has a creator. Instead of worshiping the creator, they worship pigs, cows, and idol statues.

They want to turn their back on him, go ahead and do it. He will not make you love him.

32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.​
As the Lord Jesus Christ says, by your words you are condemned. This is a common topic on TOL. Those of you that tell people it is ok to be a homo are just as wrong as the sodomites and lesbians.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
First is his audience.
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
13 Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles.
They are gentiles in Rome. Gentiles mean those that are not Israel. But they were gentiles that were proselytized to Israel as he says here:
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,
So these gentiles are going to be familiar to the promises made to Israel. They came to God through Israel, exalting her and keeping of the law. What Paul wants to do is share his gospel with these gentiles. His gospel is not the same as Israel’s good news. They have the same savior but a different ministry and mission. They in Rome knew they were to show their faith by their works. They did not have his good news.
15 So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also.

The audience is gentiles that were proselytes to Israel, they know of the law and they know they are required to keep it. They are called Jew as a result. And Paul is now ready to share his gospel with them.
In his opening address to the Romans Paul writes that they are called to be saints.

Romans 1:7 KJV To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

What I believe about "called to be saints": I don't take the Calvinist perverted twist that some were chosen for heaven and some for hell, but rather as Jesus Christ was sent in M, M, L and John to none, but the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24 KJV) as a minister of the circumcision (Romans 15:8 KJV) so we see in the Acts period that Paul was sent (Acts 26:17 KJV) to them which were the called at that time, both Jews and Greeks.

Acts 13:26 KJV Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

1 Corinthians 1:24 KJV But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

There was a remnant which God foreknew at that present time that Paul was gathering into the Body of Christ (Romans 11:1-5 KJV).

The Romans had a faith, but not the mutual faith of both them and Paul. Paul longed to see them that he may impart unto them some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established (Romans 1:10-12 KJV)

Paul writes that he is ready to preach the gospel to them (that makes no sense if they already trusted after hearing and believing),

Romans 1:15 KJV So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

as his my gospel is what would "stablish" them into the Body of Christ.

Romans 16:25 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The audience is gentiles that were proselytes to Israel, they know of the law and they know they are required to keep it. They are called Jew as a result. And Paul is now ready to share his gospel with them.

No, those who are called "Jews" are either Israelites according to the flesh or what is known as "proselytes of righteousness."

Neither would be called "Gentilës."

"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office" (Ro.11:13).​

Cornelius was what was called a "proselyte of the gate" (uncircumcised) and he remained a Gentile.

There were both Jews and Gentiles in the church at Rome.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
There's no scriptural evidence that Cornelius was circumcised. He was a blesser (Genesis 12:3 KJV),

Acts 10:1-2 KJV There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

but there is every indication that the Romans were proselytes pointed out by Paul in his zeroing in one. We'll call him "O man" (Romans 2:1 KJV). He was "called a Jew", rested in the law and made his boast of God:

Romans 2:17 KJV Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Romans 2:25 KJV For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
There's no scriptural evidence that Cornelius was circumcised.

I said that he was uncircumcised:

Cornelius was what was called a "proselyte of the gate" (uncircumcised) and he remained a Gentile.

but there is every indication that the Romans were proselytes pointed out by Paul in his zeroing in one. We'll call him "O man" (Romans 2:1 KJV). He was "called a Jew", rested in the law and made his boast of God:

Some might have been. On the other hand there were Gentiles in the church at Rome and they did not become Jews:

"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office" (Ro.11:13).​
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
I said that he was uncircumcised:
ok



Some might have been. On the other hand there were Gentiles in the church at Rome and they did not become Jews:
Yes and they were refererred to as "Greeks"

Romans 1:16 KJV For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Paul's letter to the Romans was written to Gentiles.

Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

Romans 11:13 KJV For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
No, those who are called "Jews" are either Israelites according to the flesh or what is known as "proselytes of righteousness."

Paul says otherwise.

7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
13 Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles.


I am working on chapter 3, and there is a lot in it in terms of detail.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Paul says otherwise.

7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
13 Now I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that I often planned to come to you (but was hindered until now), that I might have some fruit among you also, just as among the other Gentiles.

He was addressing those particular words to the Gentile believers in the church at Rome and not to the Jewish believers.

Are you saying that when Paul used the word "Gentiles" in this verse he was referring to Jews?:

"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office" (Ro.11:13).​
 

DAN P

Well-known member
There's no scriptural evidence that Cornelius was circumcised. He was a blesser (Genesis 12:3 KJV),

Acts 10:1-2 KJV There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

but there is every indication that the Romans were proselytes pointed out by Paul in his zeroing in one. We'll call him "O man" (Romans 2:1 KJV). He was "called a Jew", rested in the law and made his boast of God:

Romans 2:17 KJV Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

Romans 2:25 KJV For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.


Hi , and by Rom 2:26 , Therefore if the Uncircumcision keep the Righteousness of the Law , Shall not his Uncircumcision be counted as Circumcision !

Acts 10:2 , A devout ma , and one that feared God with all his house , which gave much Alms to the people ( the Jews ) and Prayed to God .

Cornelius , then did not need Circumcision at ALL !!

DAN P
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Hi , and by Rom 2:26 , Therefore if the Uncircumcision keep the Righteousness of the Law , Shall not his Uncircumcision be counted as Circumcision !

Acts 10:2 , A devout ma , and one that feared God with all his house , which gave much Alms to the people ( the Jews ) and Prayed to God .

Cornelius , then did not need Circumcision at ALL !!

DAN P
I don't believe he was either and at first glance, misread what Jerry posted.

later
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Some Gentiles were Greeks and others were not.
All Greeks were Gentiles, but not all Gentiles were Greeks. We know them which were called at that time were Jews and Greeks. Paul had yet to let the cat out of the bag that he was being sent far hence.
 
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