Death Penalty will be debated till the End of Time

KerimF

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I noticed that the men in charge of some ruling systems in the world have realized/believed that the ‘professional’ killers (and alike) in their society are gifts from God/Nature and it would be silly to apply the death penalty on them. Please note, I said ‘professional’, not any ordinary person who might commit a crime by accident. These real criminals, by nature, could be transformed to heroes if they will be sent abroad to serve their system in achieving certain crucial goals that its most forces/troops are not able to do because of morale.

On the other hand, the death penalty can help in hiding one or more truths, for good, since a dead man, unlike an isolated one in prison, has no chance to talk at all. Also, in ordinary cases, it helps saving efforts and money; unless the criminal is supported by a rich family. Finally, the death penalty when applied on some scapegoats (no more useful for the high class) can sometimes appease the people’s wrath to a great extent.

I hope you know now, after this short introduction, why the death penalty will be debated till the end of time :)
 

KerimF

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The only debate arises from those who wish to ignore God's Word.

But this is how God created the world. After all, the world cannot exist without various ruling systems (religious and political). And those who are created (also by God) to rule/control their common people in the material world (in the name of God or The People) have the last word (in their system) in every situation (based on their justice). By the way, Jesus gave me a clear example of this fact when the powerful rich Elders/Rulers, in his time, condemned Him to death and released their criminal, Barabbas, from prison.

But, I am still curious to know what could be, in your opinion/study, God's Word concerning the death penalty. Thank you.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
But, I am still curious to know what could be, in your opinion/study, God's Word concerning the death penalty. Thank you.


If I may be allowed:

Because God allows the DP and sort of even orders it himself a few times, the DP is therefore moral, because God's nature would never allow him to tell people to do immoral things. That is on the Pro DP side.

On the other hand, Jesus tells us that the heart of the law is Mercy, and he wants people to repent. By giving a killer "Life" in the penitentiary (root word "penance") they have time to repent and find God. This is Mercy. That is the anti DP side,

So, choose your poison, as the saying goes.


My opinion is: Because modern prison and security technology is such that a prisoner will likely never escape and be a danger to society, which was not the case all that long ago, we can afford to follow Jesus' message of Mercy. When our passion for retribution desires an eye for an eye, we must try to remember what Jesus said about forgiveness:

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses (Matt 16:14,15)
 

JudgeRightly

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If I may be allowed:

Because God allows the DP and sort of even orders it himself a few times, the DP is therefore moral, because God's nature would never allow him to tell people to do immoral things. That is on the Pro DP side.

On the other hand, Jesus tells us that the heart of the law is Mercy, and he wants people to repent. By giving a killer "Life" in the penitentiary (root word "penance") they have time to repent and find God. This is Mercy. That is the anti DP side,

So, choose your poison, as the saying goes.


My opinion is: Because modern prison and security technology is such that a prisoner will likely never escape and be a danger to society, which was not the case all that long ago, we can afford to follow Jesus' message of Mercy. When our passion for retribution desires an eye for an eye, we must try to remember what Jesus said about forgiveness:

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses (Matt 16:14,15)

Is it merciful to the family of the victim of a murder to allow the murderer to taunt them for the rest of their lives from prison?

Or is it more merciful to put the murderer to death, and bring swift justice to him?
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
Is it merciful to the family of the victim of a murder to allow the murderer to taunt them for the rest of their lives from prison?

If they follow Our Lord's teachings about forgiveness and mercy then that should not be a problem.


Or is it more merciful to put the murderer to death, and bring swift justice to him?

I will answer your question with a question: Is it more merciful to allow a murderer to live and give him time to repent? Or is it more merciful to put the murderer to death swiftly and deny him that chance? What do you think Jesus would answer?

The woman caught in Adultery deserved stoning to death according to the Law. Jesus chose mercy. "Go and sin no more.”
 

KerimF

New member
If I may be allowed:
Because God allows the DP and sort of even orders it himself a few times, the DP is therefore moral, because God's nature would never allow him to tell people to do immoral things. That is on the Pro DP side.

This may be true for Jews/Israelis before Jesus time (besides Pagans, Muslims and some formal Christians who are supposed to fight/kill the 'enemies' of their God).
But, as you kindly pointed it out, Jesus did 'never' talk about killing a human for any reason.

By the way, and it doesn't matter if you believe it or not, some modern prisons are actually training camps for those, among the professional criminals/killers, who don't mind playing the heroes in serving their system (or to serve one or more of its big companies/corporations) in various wars and conflicts around the world. But this couldn't be achieved if DP cannot be banned.
 

JudgeRightly

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If they follow Our Lord's teachings about forgiveness and mercy then that should not be a problem.

First of all, my question had nothing to do with if they follow Jesus' teachings or not.

My question was if they should be allowed to mock their victim and his family for the rest of their lives.

If they never repented for what they did, what would your answer be?

And even if they did, what would your answer be?

I will answer your question with a question: Is it more merciful to allow a murderer to live and give him time to repent?

Now we're back to your original question.

Scripture says that out of all the people recorded being executed, 50% of them repented. Only One was truly innocent, but the rest were all guilty.

In our current system, how many criminals actually repent of their crimes, as opposed to refusing to repent or claim that they are already "Christian"?

The answer? Very few. FAR LESS than 50%. In terms of numbers, more people get saved when the death penalty is enforced than they do when there is no death penalty.

In other words: When people are put face to face with being put to death for a crime, 50% of them are likely to turn to God for salvation. In our current system, the one that your question proposes we do, that we already do, most of the criminals do not ever repent of their crime.

In other words, to finish answering your question...

Or is it more merciful to put the murderer to death swiftly

It is far more merciful to the murderer to execute him swiftly for his crime, whether he repents or not.

and deny him that chance?

Do you suppose that he wouldn't have any number of chances to repent after the thought entered his mind to commit the crime? how about after he committed the crime, and before he was caught? during the trial? just before his execution?

How many chances does a person have during their entire life to repent and turn towards God? Do you suppose it's close to zero? Or rather nearing an infinite number of chances?

What do you think Jesus would answer?

Jesus would say to put the murderer to death.

The woman caught in Adultery deserved stoning to death according to the Law. Jesus chose mercy. "Go and sin no more.”

Jesus did not have to, nor did he, repeal the death penalty to forgive her for her sins.

But that's sins.

The woman "caught in adultery" was never convicted of any crime, so punishing her for a crime she was not convicted of would have been unjust.

God had also forgiven David of murder and adultery, yet He still required the death penalty for murderers and adulterers. Why do you ignore that fact?

But back to my above question:

If a person had repented of a crime worthy of death, or, say, was already a Christian, and did the same, should he be put to death?
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
If a person had repented of a crime worthy of death, or, say, was already a Christian, and did the same, should he be put to death?


Luke 6:37 ► "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

I believe I was pretty clear regarding my position on the death penalty and the reasons for it. My previous answers will have to suffice.
 

JudgeRightly

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Luke 6:37 ► "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

Sorry, but Jesus doesn't say that as a command. He said it as a warning to hypocrites.

[JESUS]"Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."[/JESUS]

The parallel passage is Matthew 7:1-5:

[JESUS]"Judge not, that you be not judged.For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."[/JESUS]

I believe I was pretty clear regarding my position on the death penalty

And I asked you a specific question that wasn't answered by your post.

Could you answer it please?

and the reasons for it. My previous answers will have to suffice.

If the Bible doesn't agree with your position or nor your reasons for it, would you change your position?

Are you even willing to consider the possibility that the Bible says something other than your position?
 

Rusha

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The DP saves lives in a way that being given a simple time out in a cell does not. Dead murderers cannot re-offend.
 

Trump Gurl

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The DP saves lives in a way that being given a simple time out in a cell does not. Dead murderers cannot re-offend.

That is a lie. "Life" in prison is not a "time out". Life in prison is Life in prison. Whether you impose the death penalty or sentence someone to Life, either way they are never on the streets again, so no extra lives are saved.
 

JudgeRightly

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That is a lie. "Life" in prison is not a "time out". Life in prison is Life in prison.

Prison sentences are just time-out for adults.

Are you even aware of the benefits and amenities prisoners get while in prison (which some they would never get out in the real world due to their living situation...)?

They live pretty cushy lives.

Whether you impose the death penalty or sentence someone to Life, either way they are never on the streets again, so no extra lives are saved.

I wonder how many "life sentence"-ed prisoners have escaped from prison to kill again, or have been released and then gone on to kill another person...

I also wonder how many criminals who have been convicted of capital crimes have escaped appropriate judgment simply because the death penalty wasn't even an option...

What Rusha said is true: When you put a criminal guilty of a capital crime to death, he will NEVER commit the same crime again. But when you allow such a criminal to live, he could potentially do the same crime again, given the opportunity, and such often do.
 

User Name

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What Rusha said is true: When you put a criminal guilty of a capital crime to death, he will NEVER commit the same crime again. But when you allow such a criminal to live, he could potentially do the same crime again, given the opportunity, and such often do.

I think it's interesting that Trump Gurl is arguing against the death penalty while also claiming that George Floyd Got What He Deserved.
 

KerimF

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By the way, let us not forget that DP could be also applied anytime on innocent persons, if their death seems serving, in one way or another, the interests of the powerful rich group in a society. Jesus gave us a clear example of this case :)

I mean; the way justice is applied 'in reality' has to serve, first of all, the interests of Caesar (the men in charge of a ruling system, religious or political) while fooling the common people with stories to justify it in every case.

One cannot change the world. One, at best, can discover it. And, to me in the least, anything imposed on others is evil. This explains why Jesus didn't impose any rule and focused on true Love instead which could be lived by one's free will only.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
Prison sentences are just time-out for adults.

Are you even aware of the benefits and amenities prisoners get while in prison (which some they would never get out in the real world due to their living situation...)?

They live pretty cushy lives.


I'll bet I know a lot more about state prisons than you do.

If you knew anything about LeveL 4 pens (penitentiaries) where Lifers go, they are not as cushy as you think. Far from it. I suggest you read articles about Pelican Bay.

And a Life Sentence is LIFE, not a time out.

Prisons are Level 1 through 4, based on the severity of the crime and also a "points" system. Low level offenders end up in Level One, where you get all those "cushy" surrounding you speak of, and ranches and fire camps. If they violate a few times they get "points" and are sent to a Level 2 yard, a little tougher.

Level Four where Lifers go is much much different, brutal, not cushy in the slightest. And whether you survive there to die a natural death is itself in question.

Your post was sheer ignorance. Not your fault though, not many people know the details about how prisons are actually run and administered.


Does 22 1/2 Hours Alone in an 8 x 10 Cell Every Day Amount to Torture? Video From Inside Pelican Bay Prison
https://www.kqed.org/news/89880/inhu...isolation-unit

“I haven’t seen the moon since 1998.” That's inmate Jeremy Beasley, talking to me while sitting--shackled--in an interview room at Pelican Bay State Prison, California’s highest security lockup.

Beasley, a convicted murderer, was clearly surprised by my presence—he told me he hadn’t met with a visitor since 1994, when he was incarcerated.

It’s not just the moon Beasley hadn't seen in 15 years. During that time, in fact, Beasley rarely glimpsed the outside world. Before being transferred to another prison, he was held in Pelican Bay's Security Housing Unit, a windowless, bunker-like facility that houses more than 1,000 California inmates.

For 22-and-a-half hours a day, each inmate here is locked, usually alone, in an 8-by-10 feet cell. For 90 minutes the inmate is allowed to exercise in an adjacent room with 25-30 feet high walls. And that’s their entire day -- every day.

“I’ve seen guys lose their minds back here,” Beasley tells me.

Isolation Unit Conditions: Torture?

Monday in Sacramento lawmakers are delving into a growing national controversy over special security units like Pelican Bay's that are used to isolate thousands of inmates from the regular prison population. Civil rights groups say long-term isolation amounts to torture, while state corrections officials say the units are necessary and the conditions are human
e.






C6YX6U7Z3CGWV3UC76CQ7JEELQ.jpg
 

JudgeRightly

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By the way, let us not forget that DP could be also applied anytime on innocent persons, if their death seems serving, in one way or another, the interests of the powerful rich group in a society. Jesus gave us a clear example of this case :)

In all of history, there is only ONE example of a known innocent person being put to death, and not be convicted of any crimes.

All other innocent people have been convicted for a crime or crimes.

However, your statement assumes that letting the actually guilty go free in order to protect the innocent is better than punishing an innocent person, either knowingly or unknowingly.

BOTH ARE EQUALLY WICKED.

I mean; the way justice is applied 'in reality' has to serve, first of all, the interests of Caesar (the men in charge of a ruling system, religious or political) while fooling the common people with stories to justify it in every case.

Justice isn't something to be made up.

Justice is getting what one deserves.

Thieves deserve to pay restitution.
People who harm others physically deserve to be punished corporally.
Murderers, adulterers, homosexuals, people who commit bestiality, rapists, all deserve to be put to death swiftly and painfully.

God says that when justice is not swiftly enforced, men commit more crime.

One cannot change the world. One, at best, can discover it.


What in the world does that mean...?

And, to me in the least, anything imposed on others is evil.

So if I were to beat you to the ground, take your wallet, assault your wife and daughters in front of you, and then kill you and your entire family, it would be evil to impose the death penalty upon me?

This explains why Jesus didn't impose any rule and focused on true Love instead which could be lived by one's free will only.

You clearly need to reread what Jesus said then, because he certainly did teach law (rule), in addition to love.
 

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
Here you go JudgeRightly, nice and cushy. A basic San Quentin cell.

Hang out there for a while and lets see if you come out spewing out the same nonsense.

920x920.jpg
 

The Berean

Well-known member
Prison sentences are just time-out for adults.

Are you even aware of the benefits and amenities prisoners get while in prison (which some they would never get out in the real world due to their living situation...)?

They live pretty cushy lives.



I wonder how many "life sentence"-ed prisoners have escaped from prison to kill again, or have been released and then gone on to kill another person...

I also wonder how many criminals who have been convicted of capital crimes have escaped appropriate judgment simply because the death penalty wasn't even an option...

What Rusha said is true: When you put a criminal guilty of a capital are crime to death, he will NEVER commit the same crime again. But when you allow such a criminal to live, he could potentially do the same crime again, given the opportunity, and such often do.

What prisons are you talking about? :liberals: Here in California the state prisons are human zoos. I've spoken to former inmates and they paint an extremely grim picture. When you enter a California state prison you will have a join one of the gangs (Woods, Nortenos, Surenos, Blacks, etc.). You do not have a choice. Once you join you will be ordered to "put in work". This may range from smuggling drugs or assaulting another inmate to even murder. If you find out that your cellmate has "bad paperwork" i.e., is a sex offender or committed crimes against women or children, or he's an informant, or he has committed homosexual acts you will be forced to kill him. If you do not, you yourself will be killed. That doesn't sound like a cushy life to me.

WARNING: There is some profanity in this video

 

JudgeRightly

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I'll bet I know a lot more about state prisons than you do.

And?

Prisoners, regardless of what level of prison they are in, are clothed, fed, watered, medicated, educated... and a whole list of other things.

Regardless, it is INHUMANE to lock up criminals like animals.

Humans are made in God's image, and regardless of what crimes they have committed, it is dehumanizing to put a person in a cage and call it punishment.

God authorized only three forms of punishment in the Bible, restitution, corporal punishment, and the death penalty.

He frees prisoners. The only time He authorizes locking someone up is when they are awaiting a trial (which shouldn't be that long anyways) or sentencing. He never authorized it to be used as a punishment.

If you knew anything about LeveL 4 pens (penitentiaries) where Lifers go, they are not as cushy as you think. Far from it. I suggest you read articles about Pelican Bay.

And a Life Sentence is LIFE, not a time out.

Prisons are Level 1 through 4, based on the severity of the crime and also a "points" system. Low level offenders end up in Level One, where you get all those "cushy" surrounding you speak of, and ranches and fire camps. If they violate a few times they get "points" and are sent to a Level 2 yard, a little tougher.

Level Four where Lifers go is much much different, brutal, not cushy in the slightest. And whether you survive there to die a natural death is itself in question.

Your post was sheer ignorance. Not your fault though, not many people know the details about how prisons are actually run and administered.


Does 22 1/2 Hours Alone in an 8 x 10 Cell Every Day Amount to Torture? Video From Inside Pelican Bay Prison
https://www.kqed.org/news/89880/inhu...isolation-unit

“I haven’t seen the moon since 1998.” That's inmate Jeremy Beasley, talking to me while sitting--shackled--in an interview room at Pelican Bay State Prison, California’s highest security lockup.

Beasley, a convicted murderer, was clearly surprised by my presence—he told me he hadn’t met with a visitor since 1994, when he was incarcerated.

It’s not just the moon Beasley hadn't seen in 15 years. During that time, in fact, Beasley rarely glimpsed the outside world. Before being transferred to another prison, he was held in Pelican Bay's Security Housing Unit, a windowless, bunker-like facility that houses more than 1,000 California inmates.

For 22-and-a-half hours a day, each inmate here is locked, usually alone, in an 8-by-10 feet cell. For 90 minutes the inmate is allowed to exercise in an adjacent room with 25-30 feet high walls. And that’s their entire day -- every day.

“I’ve seen guys lose their minds back here,” Beasley tells me.

Isolation Unit Conditions: Torture?

Monday in Sacramento lawmakers are delving into a growing national controversy over special security units like Pelican Bay's that are used to isolate thousands of inmates from the regular prison population. Civil rights groups say long-term isolation amounts to torture, while state corrections officials say the units are necessary and the conditions are human
e.


C6YX6U7Z3CGWV3UC76CQ7JEELQ.jpg

It's all moot.

Prisons are not to be used as a form of punishment, according to God.

Could you please answer my questions below?

I believe I was pretty clear regarding my position on the death penalty

And I asked you a specific question that wasn't answered by your post.

Could you answer it please?


First of all, my question had nothing to do with if they follow Jesus' teachings or not.

My question was if they should be allowed to mock their victim and his family for the rest of their lives.

If they never repented for what they did, what would your answer be?

And even if they did, what would your answer be?



and the reasons for it. My previous answers will have to suffice.

If the Bible doesn't agree with your position or nor your reasons for it, would you change your position?

Are you even willing to consider the possibility that the Bible says something other than your position?

TG, Do you suppose that he wouldn't have any number of chances to repent after the thought entered his mind to commit the crime? how about after he committed the crime, and before he was caught? during the trial? just before his execution?

How many chances does a person have during their entire life to repent and turn towards God? Do you suppose it's close to zero? Or rather nearing an infinite number of chances?

​​​​​​​If a person had repented of a crime worthy of death, or, say, was already a Christian, and did the same, should he be put to death? Yes or no?
 
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