The Plot by Bob Enyart

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Some people say the silliest things.
I was answering a silly question according to its silliness (Proverbs? ;))
You certainly have to ignore a ton of scripture to believe that God is done with Israel.
l don't want to ignore scripture, so let's see what you got...
Here are just a couple:

Rom 11:11-15 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (11:12) Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (11:13) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (11:14) If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them. (11:15) For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
Why didn't you bold and underline if and some? Continue on to Romans 11:23...

And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

It's a conditional promise (if). Also, what you quoted from earlier in Romans doesn't disagree with my interpretation at all. Some of the circumcision (and their descendents) have been saved already by having chosen to be on Team Jesus. And, it's still true today; Jews (individually) convert to Christianity even in 2023 AD.
Rev 21:10-14 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:10) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, (21:11) Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; (21:12) And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: (21:13) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. (21:14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
This passage is wonderful and exciting. I interpret it literally. I could be wrong, but I believe an actual mega-city will be supernaturally lowered into place on the new Earth. I don't see how this passage conflicts with anything I have said. Please help me to understand.

Edit 1:50 pm (Eastern time):
One thing to keep in mind is that today's Talmudic Jews do not encompass all of Israel's descendents. For example, do you know your heritage? How far back do you know it? Do you know your ancestors all the way back to 500 BC? You yourself may be an Israelite. I may be an Israelite. Unless you know for certain that you were never mixed with any of the tribes dispersed by the Assyrian Empire, then it is a possibility that one of those 12 gates may be for you and I and our ancestors.
 
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Right Divider

Body part
Why didn't you bold and underline if and some? Continue on to Romans 11:23...

And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
I guess that you've completely missed the point of the entire passage.

Rom 11:25 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Notice the temporary nature of the blindness of Israel.

Rom 11:26 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

It goes along with this:
Jer 31:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)
(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
This passage is wonderful and exciting. I interpret it literally. I could be wrong, but I believe an actual mega-city will be supernaturally lowered into place on the new Earth. I don't see how this passage conflicts with anything I have said. Please help me to understand.
This passage shows that Israel is the focus of God's plans for the earth in the future.
Edit 1:50 pm (Eastern time):
One thing to keep in mind is that today's Talmudic Jews do not encompass all of Israel's descendents. For example, do you know your heritage? How far back do you know it? Do you know your ancestors all the way back to 500 BC? You yourself may be an Israelite. I may be an Israelite. Unless you know for certain that you were never mixed with any of the tribes dispersed by the Assyrian Empire, then it is a possibility that one of those 12 gates may be for you and I and our ancestors.
Another very silly idea. It's about the 12 tribes of Israel. The 12 tribes that have 12 apostles sitting on 12 thrones judging them.
 
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Unsettler

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I guess that you've completely missed the point of the entire passage.

Rom 11:25 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Notice the temporary nature of the blindness of Israel.
Why do you interpret this mechanistically? Be an open theist.

Edit 3:57 pm (Eastern): If you want to be mechanical, then the blindess no longer exists! A decent percentage of Talmudic Jews are still converting to Christianity today. The NKJ version (Enyart's preferred translation) says, "...a blindness in part HAS HAPPENED (past tense)" There is no blindness today.
Rom 11:26 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Is King Ahab part of all Israel? Or is Paul just talking about some Talmudic Jews, that might be still extant thousands of years in the future?
It goes along with this:
Jer 31:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)
(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Edit 3:48 pm (Eastern): My apologies. I missed this paragraph when responding. I interpret "After those days" to be God's plan for after the Tribulation and the start of the Kingdom of the Circumcision. But, again, we are open theists. We, especially, cannot be dogmatic about the future, because we (of all believers) know that God can change His mind. At best, this passage did represent God's plan, but He is not a slave to it, of course. We know this explicitly because of Jeremiah!
This passage shows that Israel is the focus of God's plans for the earth in the future.
Why does this support your position? Because names are etched on His eternal city? If not a single Jew EVER converts from this point forward, the names of these heroes will still be honored.
Another very silly idea. It's about the 12 tribes of Israel. The 12 tribes that have 12 apostle sitting on 12 thrones judging them.
What's silly about it?
 
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Clete

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Clearly you are genius, and I love learning from you.
"...have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?

Morons!"

All kidding aside, Bob was the genius. I'm no better than average. Bob's material makes anything I write look as if were written in crayon.

I guess my point about the dogmatism is: "Why not keep an open mind that God may have changed His mind?" (I will make suggestions on your proof texts, below.)
Well, because there's good reason not to. I'm not at all sure dogmatic is the right term to be using here in the first place but since that's the word we're using, if anything, it would be people who insist on believing something until they are given evidence to the contrary who are being dogmatic. In other words, you don't want to start with a belief and then hang on to it until its proven false. You want to start with evidence and then build your belief on that and then only get dogmatic about the stuff that you are confident has been fully established without any room for doubt or debate.

Ahh, but I am not suggesting God has definitely cut them off permanently, only that it is a possibility about which we can not be dogmatic.
Again, just what do you mean by "dogmatic"?

What evidence is there that Israel has been permanently cut off?

I am looking forward to learning more in the book, but it seems to me that the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was possibly "The" Tribulation.
NO! Flat out, absolutely it definitely was not.

How's that for dogmatic! :LOL:

Seriously though, there's not a chance at all that this is correct.

It didn't follow the exact prophesied plan, but that doesn't matter to us open theists.
It doesn't have anything to do with whether it followed a prophesied plan or not. As I pointed out in the previous post, Israel had been cut off four decades prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. That single point alone is sufficient to disprove the idea that what happened in 70AD had anything to do with God dealing with Israel as a nation because, in order for that to be the case, God would have had to have finished with the Gentiles, raptured the body of Christ off the Earth, turned back to Israel and completed Daniel's 70th week.

With two simultaneously operating dispensations, why shouldn't I expect a Circumcision warning?
Because there were not two simultaneously operating dispensations. Not in the way you mean it here.

There were two groups of believers, one from the current dispensation and the other from the PREVIOUS dispensation (i.e. not a concurrently running dispensation). The dispensation of law was over and Israel was well and truly cut off. The only exceptions to this were those still living believers who had come to Christ while that now closed dispensation was still in operation, almost all of whom would have been dead by the time 70 AD rolled around. But if that weren't the case, even if 100% of them were still living in 70AD, that body of believers did not represent a distinct nation of Israel apart from that which had been cut off. God didn't start Israel over again with the Twelve and their converts. They were all still members of the nation of Israel that had been cut off. Thus there wasn't a nation of Israel to warn. Which is to say that while there was a nation called Israel and a city named Jerusalem, those places had lost their special standing before God and were committed to unrighteousness along with the rest of the world and thus God would have had no more active role in, nor reason to warn Jerusalem about, their impending destruction than He had with Pompeii.

I think Paul was expecting Jesus to return soon and do just that.
As has virtually every Christian since then. Which is to say that I don't get the point here.

Once Jerusalem and the Temple are destroyed for a second time without Jesus taking the physical throne, I think that Paul would likely have considered them permanently cut off.
There is no evidence to believe this.

Irrevocable calling! Irrevocable gifts? What do these this mean?
It means, among other things, that you don't get to switch dispensations. Peter, James and John came to Christ while under the law and so they remained under the law. They are members of Israel to this day and will remain so for as long as there is an Earth with a city named "Jerusalem" on it. Indeed, it is Israel who has an Earthly calling and it is they who have been promised the Earth as an inheritance.

As you know, there are many verses which would indicate that gifts cease and God's calling is resistible. I need help here. They can be beloved, but still at some point an unfaithful bride is sent packing.
You're mixing contexts here. We aren't talking about free will vs. any form or flavor of "irresistible grace". The passage in question is Romans 11:29. Read the whole chapter. Paul is talking about Israel vs. the body of Christ and how blindness had happened to Israel "in part". Why "in part"? What part wasn't blind? It was the Twelve and their converts! God had not cut them off but rather the whole rest of the nation that refused to repent. Those who had already come to Christ were not cut off and thus continued in their covenant relationship with God to whatever extent that was possible throughout their lives. When those believers died out then there was no longer anyone who was living their lives in a condition were they were under the law and in relationship with God according to Israel's Kingdom gospel/covenant.

How is Israel different than His "manager" in Luke 12?

The Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible manager his master will put in charge of his household servants to give them their allotted food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom the master finds doing his job when he comes. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and starts to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, that servant’s master will come on a day he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unfaithful.

Will His "manager" be reinstated? The only reason the "manager" was the manager was because of the promises to the patriarchs of Israel. God has already been abundantly patient and faithful to the patriarchs.
So this feels to me like you're arguing against your own case. :confused:

Israel was cut off, where they not? How was this parable not specifically fulfilled by God cutting off Israel and turning to the Gentiles, which happened in Acts 9 not 70AD.
 
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Clete

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Let's say you have a 17-year old son named Abe. His birthday is coming up and you promised him a remote control airplane. He is eagerly looking forward to the day. But when the day comes, instead of a remote control plane, you gift him a Gulfstream G700 complete with 24/7 on-call pilot service, unlimited gas, a trillion $ bank account, and elite vacation homes in all of the hottest vacation destinations, staffed with Michelin-rated chefs and professional maid services. You also gift him a phone with a contact list filled with millions of the nicest and smartest people in the world, and they all love and admire your son, Abe. They would do anything for him. When Abe saw all that you gave him, he was "glad." What was the promised gift again?

What did Abraham expect for his gift 4,000 years ago? Are we talking about some dirt in a cursed world? Are we talking about administrative and security responsibilities (kingship...for ~1% of his descendents)? Are we talking about anticipated luxuries (then) that pale in comparison to the pleasures at the fingertips of the poorest Americans (today)?

Can we rightly say that Abraham is more blessed (right now) then he could have possibly imagined? Isn't he more blessed and revered than any earthly king himself, right now?
Abraham was a great man, no doubt about it, and the promises were made to Abraham but it isn't and never has been about Abraham per se. Abraham is just one character in a huge story that God is telling through the history of mankind. This history starts in the Garden of Eden where there are two trees. One of those trees has everything to do with what God has been doing throughout human history since then and with what He will be doing right through until this world is destroyed by fire and replaced with a New Earth where the other tree will be present.

Further, there are several things that have been promised that God has not yet done, not the least of which is having Abraham's seed sitting on a throne in Jerusalem. That and all the other promises WILL happen because God's covenant with Abraham (Abram at the time) was not conditional on anything other than God's own promise. Abraham wasn't even conscious when God made His covenant with him (see Genesis 15).

Can God cut off Israel, sure! He did so! In Acts 9, not 70AD. Is that cutting off of Israel permanent? Certainly not! How do we know this? Because God Himself tells us so through the Apostle Paul's, Holy Spirit inspired letter to the Romans (see chapter 11).

You might say, well what if Israel never repents and continues in unbelief?

Well, do you mean like they did in the desert with Moses?

Here's God and Moses up on Mount Sinai doing the whole "giving of the Law" thing and before Moses can even get back down the mountain, the whole nation is worshiping one of Egypt's cattle gods, of all things! What does God desire to do in response?

Exodus 32: 9 And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.”​

Moses then talked God out of doing that but that isn't the point. The point is that all God needs in one single guy to build a whole nation out of. Even if, when the time comes to end the Body of Christ and turn back to Israel, God has to wipe out the whole mess and start over from one single person who is descended from Abraham, then that's what He will do.

In short, there just isn't any reason to even think that God is finished with Israel and a whole bible full of reasons to know that He is not.


Clete
 

Unsettler

Member
"...have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?

Morons!"

All kidding aside, Bob was the genius. I'm no better than average. Bob's material makes anything I write look as if were written in crayon.
Haha! You're too humble. At least I know for sure that your logic is far superior to mine.
Well, because there's good reason not to. I'm not at all sure dogmatic is the right term to be using here in the first place but since that's the word we're using, if anything, it would be people who insist on believing something until they are given evidence to the contrary who are being dogmatic. In other words, you don't want to start with a belief and then hang on to it until its proven false. You want to start with evidence and then build your belief on that and then only get dogmatic about the stuff that you are confident has been fully established without any room for doubt or debate.


Again, just what do you mean by "dogmatic"?
What I am trying to say (albeit poorly), is that as open theists, it seems inconsistent to be certain (in our minds) of God's future plans for nations. We can be certain in our salvation, because Paul clearly laid out the faith transaction that takes place when a human believes on the Lord Jesus. But when it comes to prophecy and future plans for nations, we need to be open minded. For example, if we were very "dogmatic" [Clete: Please insert a more appropriate word :D], then we might have been counted among the pharisees who (perhaps) were expecting a warrior king messiah; because, after all, there is prophecy to support that expectation in at least one of the later books of the old testament.
What evidence is there that Israel has been permanently cut off?


NO! Flat out, absolutely it definitely was not.

How's that for dogmatic! :LOL:
Lol! That's what I'm talking about!
Seriously though, there's not a chance at all that this is correct.


It doesn't have anything to do with whether it followed a prophesied plan or not. As I pointed out in the previous post, Israel had been cut off four decades prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. That single point alone is sufficient to disprove the idea that what happened in 70AD had anything to do with God dealing with Israel as a nation because, in order for that to be the case, God would have had to have finished with the Gentiles, raptured the body of Christ off the Earth, turned back to Israel and completed Daniel's 70th week.
"God would have had to..." Why does God HAVE to do anything? This is my point. Should those 5 words be in the mouth of an open theist? This is where I am having trouble (this degree of certainty on our part and lack of freedom on His part.)
Because there were not two simultaneously operating dispensations. Not in the way you mean it here.

There were two groups of believers, one from the current dispensation and the other from the PREVIOUS dispensation (i.e. not a concurrently running dispensation). The dispensation of law was over and Israel was well and truly cut off. The only exceptions to this were those still living believers who had come to Christ while that now closed dispensation was still in operation, almost all of whom would have been dead by the time 70 AD rolled around. But if that weren't the case, even if 100% of them were still living in 70AD, that body of believers did not represent a distinct nation of Israel apart from that which had been cut off. God didn't start Israel over again with the Twelve and their converts. They were all still members of the nation of Israel that had been cut off. Thus there wasn't a nation of Israel to warn. Which is to say that while there was a nation called Israel and a city named Jerusalem, those places had lost their special standing before God and were committed to unrighteousness along with the rest of the world and thus God would have had no more active role in, nor reason to warn Jerusalem about, their impending destruction that He had with Pompeii.
Got it. This is a great response.

P.S. It seems to me that God took credit for Pompeii in the Book of Revelation (BUT I know that's irrelevant to this discussion; we can discuss in another thread in the weeks to come).

P.P.S. I am going to post, then edit to add responses below. (I forgot what I wrote, and I have to go back a page.)
As has virtually every Christian since then. Which is to say that I don't get the point here.
I'm saying that the blindness that "had happened" to Israel was for that generation only. This was not a genetically-passed-down blindness. He was expecting the "fullness of the Gentiles" in his lifetime, and this is why we need to be careful about extrapolating the prophecies 2,000 years into the future.
There is no evidence to believe this.
True. Shame he died 5 years earlier. Paul's perspective on the fall of Jerusalem would have made this all crystal clear.
It means, among other things, that you don't get to switch dispensations. Peter, James and John came to Christ while under the law and so they remained under the law. They are members of Israel to this day and will remain so for as long as there is an Earth with a city named "Jerusalem" on it. Indeed, it is Israel who has an Earthly calling and it is they who have been promised the Earth as an inheritance.
I can dig that. I haven't finished the book yet, so I don't understand that last sentence.
You're mixing contexts here. We aren't talking about free will vs. any form or flavor of "irresistible grace". The passage in question is Romans 11:29. Read the whole chapter. Paul is talking about Israel vs. the body of Christ and how blindness had happened to Israel "in part". Why "in part"? What part wasn't blind? It was the Twelve and their converts! God had not cut them off but rather the whole rest of the nation that refused to repent. Those who had already come to Christ were not cut off and thus continued in their covenant relationship with God to whatever extent that was possible throughout their lives. When those believers died out then there was no longer anyone who was living their lives in a condition were they were under the law and in relationship with God according to Israel's Kingdom gospel/covenant.
Yes, I am with you here.
So this feels to me like you're arguing against your own case. :confused:

Israel was cut off, where they not? How was this parable not specifically fulfilled by God cutting off Israel and turning to the Gentiles, which happened in Acts 9 not 70AD.
How so? I believe they were cut off. First, temporarily (1 year after the crucifixion), then I'm suggesting potentially permanently (as a nation), after the destruction of the temple (which is no small part of their national identity). I'm challenging the certainty that there still exists a plan to bring back the descendents of Talmudic Jews and give them the keys to the Kingdom (once they pass through another tribulation). To me, this parable seems to show intent to eliminate the manager's role, possibly without backfilling it, as there is no mention of a replacement.
 
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Unsettler

Member
Abraham was a great man, no doubt about it, and the promises were made to Abraham but it isn't and never has been about Abraham per se. Abraham is just one character in a huge story that God is telling through the history of mankind. This history starts in the Garden of Eden where there are two trees. One of those trees has everything to do with what God has been doing throughout human history since then and with what He will be doing right through until this world is destroyed by fire and replaced with a New Earth where the other tree will be present.
Yes! 💯
Further, there are several things that have been promised that God has not yet done, not the least of which is having Abraham's seed sitting on a throne in Jerusalem.
Solomon says, "Ahem."
That and all the other promises WILL happen because God's covenant with Abraham (Abram at the time) was not conditional on anything other than God's own promise. Abraham wasn't even conscious when God made His covenant with him (see Genesis 15).
I'm with you.
Can God cut off Israel, sure! He did so! In Acts 9,
YES!
not 70AD.
Why not also, but more permanently (as a corporate nation)? :D
Is that cutting off of Israel permanent? Certainly not! How do we know this? Because God Himself tells us so through the Apostle Paul's, Holy Spirit inspired letter to the Romans (see chapter 11).
Yes, but a major event happened after Paul wrote this, and God changes His mind. Is prophetic certainty warranted in this instance? That's the question. I think I know how to better ask the question now, after this back and forth. I will attempt to do so below.
You might say, well what if Israel never repents and continues in unbelief?

Well, do you mean like they did in the desert with Moses?

Here's God and Moses up on Mount Sinai doing the whole "giving of the Law" thing and before Moses can even get back down the mountain, the whole nation is worshiping one of Egypt's cattle gods, of all things! What does God desire to do in response?

Exodus 32: 9 And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.”​

Moses then talked God out of doing that but that isn't the point. The point is that all God needs in one single guy to build a whole nation out of. Even if, when the time comes to end the Body of Christ and turn back to Israel, God has to wipe out the whole mess and start over from one single person who is descended from Abraham, then that's what He will do.
Yes, I totally agree this is possible.
In short, there just isn't any reason to even think that God is finished with Israel and a whole bible full of reasons to know that He is not.
I think my confusion, relates to me not properly defining terms at the outset. I don't think that God is finished with Israel, meaning He intends to blot Israel's memory from existence. I am suggesting that it could be possible that, despite what Paul prophesied prior to the destruction of the temple, God could freely decide to not use the remnant of Talmudic Jews (either those currently living in Israel or those living in New York City or anywhere in between). Israel is a lot more than Talmudic Jews. Those two words are not synonymous. There are plenty of former Israelites who love Jesus. I wouldn't be surprised is there are a few hundred million descendents of Israel (who may or may not know they are descendents) who live their lives as Christians and/or have lived as Christians over the past nearly 2,000 years. If God tapped any of them, He could fulfill his promises to Abraham, without making future use of any of the current Judaism practicioners. Is this possible?
 

Clete

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@Unsettler,

I thought of a different take on this discussion that might be more in keeping with what you're getting at.

Jeremiah 18 is perhaps the single most important chapter in the entire bible. It is certainly one of the most important. Let's take a look at a couple verses that make this so...
Jeremiah 18:7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.​
So, from this passage we know that prophesy is no prewritten history. Pretty easy to understand, right? It's a wonder why there is any such thing as a Calvinist - but that's a rabbit trail.

If you read the verses just prior to what I quoted above, you'll read where God employees the "Potter and the clay" metaphor just a Paul does in Romans 9. In fact, Paul's citing of the metaphor was a citing of Jeremiah 18. Calvinists think that Paul is talking about predestination in Romans 9 when it's precisely the opposite. What is taught in Jeremiah 18:7-10 was precisely the point that Paul was making in Romans 9. In fact, Romans 9 is Jeremiah 18 put into practice. This is one of several reasons we KNOW that Israel was cut off in Acts 9 and not in 70 AD, by the way.

However, what about the rest of Israel's prophesied program? Take the prophesies in Revelation for example. Are they prewritten history any more than those written by Joel or Daniel? No, they aren't except to the extent that their fulfillment isn't dependant upon Israel's repentance or lack thereof, which happens to be most of it because, as I said in my previous post, it isn't as much about Israel and/or Abraham as it is about God Himself and what He's doing in relation to dealing with the effects that Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil has had on His creation, including His exalting the law and making it honorable.

Which then takes me back to what I said before about there being a myriad of ways that God can accomplish this, including wiping out the whole nation of Israel and starting practically from scratch, which is the express purpose and propheisied result of the Tribulation (Matthew 24:22 & Mark 13:20). So I'd say that, at the very least, Daniel's 70th week is unavoidable.

Clete
 

Clete

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I think my confusion, relates to me not properly defining terms at the outset. I don't think that God is finished with Israel, meaning He intends to blot Israel's memory from existence. I am suggesting that it could be possible that, despite what Paul prophesied prior to the destruction of the temple, God could freely decide to not use the remnant of Talmudic Jews (either those currently living in Israel or those living in New York City or anywhere in between). Israel is a lot more than Talmudic Jews. Those two words are not synonymous. There are plenty of former Israelites who love Jesus. I wouldn't be surprised is there are a few hundred million descendents of Israel (who may or may not know they are descendents) who live their lives as Christians and/or have lived as Christians over the past nearly 2,000 years. If God tapped any of them, He could fulfill his promises to Abraham, without making future use of any of the current Judaism practicioners. Is this possible?
God could use any living descendant of Abraham He decided to use EXCEPT for those who were already members of the Body of Christ. There will be no such thing as a member of the Body of Christ who is saved by grace alone apart from works who will ever be placed under the law and asked to lead the people of the law into a renewed covenant of law. Once you are saved under one dispensation, you aren't going to be moved to a different dispensation - period.

Imagine some person who, as you suggest, may not even know that he's a descendant of Abraham, is walking down 5th Ave to work one morning and all of a sudden he witnesses the rapture. Suppose that he knows enough about the bible and its teachings to realize what has just happened and that he's in really big trouble and immediately responds to this realization by repenting and asking God to show him what he must do. God then starts talking to this man in His big thunder/fall on your face in fear voice and things start rolling down hill from there.

Clete
 

Unsettler

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God could use any living descendant of Abraham He decided to use EXCEPT for those who were already members of the Body of Christ. There will be no such thing as a member of the Body of Christ who is saved by grace alone apart from works who will ever be placed under the law and asked to lead the people of the law into a renewed covenant of law. Once you are saved under one dispensation, you aren't going to be moved to a different dispensation - period.

Imagine some person who, as you suggest, may not even know that he's a descendant of Abraham, is walking down 5th Ave to work one morning and all of a sudden he witnesses the rapture. Suppose that he knows enough about the bible and its teachings to realize what has just happened and that he's in really big trouble and immediately responds to this realization by repenting and asking God to show him what he must do. God then starts talking to this man in His big thunder/fall on your face in fear voice and things start rolling down hill from there.

Clete
Like I said, I love learning from you AND you are a genius!
 

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Why do you interpret this mechanistically? Be an open theist.
I simply take the scripture the way that it's written.
Is King Ahab part of all Israel? Or is Paul just talking about some Talmudic Jews, that might be still extant thousands of years in the future?
😵💫🥴
Why does this support your position? Because names are etched on His eternal city? If not a single Jew EVER converts from this point forward, the names of these heroes will still be honored.
Many in Israel will convert per prophesy.

There are many other scriptures, but you seem unable to understand them... so I won't bother.
What's silly about it?
🙄
 

JudgeRightly

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"Yeah, having the Son of the Living God as my descendant is nice and all, but I want muh dirt."

Is there something wrong with Abraham wanting God to fulfill His Promise to him?

Why can't you answer my question?

Has the land Promise God made to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob, been fulfilled yet?

God's covenant with Abraham was fulfilled in a way with David and Solomon's reign.

How so?

Also, Elijah kinda came before the Messiah, as promised.

So what?

Did Israel, at any point in in the past, ever inhabit or take possession of the Land that God promised to Abraham?
 

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I simply take the scripture the way that it's written.
Cool. So then you agree that blindness in part Israel has happened (past tense, i.e., no longer in effect).
Sorry to daze you, Mr. Mechanical, but I guess you now realize that not ALL Israel will be saved, despite that being the mechanical understanding.
Many in Israel will convert per prophesy.
Your not an open theist are you?
There are many other scriptures, but you seem unable to understand them... so I won't bother.

🙄
Yikes!
 

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Cool. So then you agree that blindness in part Israel has happened (past tense, i.e., no longer in effect).
Boy, talk about "mechanical"!

When the "blindness in part" had happened, it was still happening.

When you want to have a real discussion, let me know.
 

JudgeRightly

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P.P.S. I am going to post, then edit to add responses below. (I forgot what I wrote, and I have to go back a page.)

You can go to different pages in the thread and the site should save your draft. And if you're not sure, you can click on the overflow button, then the "[ ]" button, then the save icon, and it will save your post draft for that thread, so you can continue to browse the site, and when you return, it will still be available for you to edit.
 

Unsettler

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No, I don't. I cannot read your mind.
You're smart, what implication is there that Elijah sort of returned prior to the Messiah? I know you already know the answer. God's promises and prophecies can be fulfilled in a nearly/sort-of kind of way. (This is open theism 101.) I am in an open theism forum, right? If you're not an open theist, then we can agree to disagree.
 

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You can go to different pages in the thread and the site should save your draft. And if you're not sure, you can click on the overflow button, then the "[ ]" button, then the save icon, and it will save your post draft for that thread, so you can continue to browse the site, and when you return, it will still be available for you to edit.
Ok, thanks!
 
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