VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
That's an interesting question.
Is The Physical Realm Analogous To A Simulated Reality?
- Thread starter VladtheDestroyer
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That's an interesting question.
VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
Maybe they like to hang out there.
VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
BTW this word might also be a bit gay.
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ttruscott
Well-known member
In the Bible, when God "opened his eyes," it typically refers to a moment of divine revelation. Most famously, in the Book of Numbers, God opened the eyes of the prophet Balaam, allowing him to see the angel of the Lord blocking his path with a drawn sword. Seems to imply that the angel was really really there but invisible to Balaam, yes?
And:
2 Kings 6:17, where the prophet Elisha prays for his terrified servant. The servant was overwhelmed by an enemy army, but God answered Elisha's prayer and opened his eyes to see the unseen spiritual realm—a mountain full of horses and chariots of fire. Was the fire real flames or just bright lights?
Derf
Well-known member
Seems like "under the altar" would have significance.
The phrase is used in the sacrificial system thusly:
And the sons of Aaron brought the blood unto him: and he dipped his finger in the blood, and put [it] upon the horns of the altar, and poured out the blood at the bottom of the altar: [Lev 9:9 KJV]
And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh. [Deu 12:27 KJV]
And here are two verses referring to Christ being poured out, as a sacrifice for us:
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. [Psa 22:14 KJV]
Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. [Isa 53:12 KJV]
So it would appear that the souls "under the alter" were "poured out" like Christ was, suffering like He did, as Christ expected of His disciples:
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. [Jhn 15:20 KJV]
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VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
After thinking about this a bit, I guess I see it the same way. I would add that it seems to me that they would need permission from God first, or obey some kind of rules. For example, I don't think it would be permissible for an angel to, say, pretend to be my mother or something like that and imitate her physical body.
The simulation must follow certain rules so that God is portrayed accurately as He interacts with us in it. So that we can know Him. I think this is why God is using dividing language in Genesis 1. God make a covenant, and then provides a specific pathway or an architecture where we can dwell together with Him (ie. a gardenlike temple on top of His Holy mountain.) There IS that sort of pattern in the Bible, although it's a bit rough...
It might explain why that when God does a miracle, He often times does not just DO a miracle. He seems to do them tentatively. Oftentimes telling people "Do this and this FIRST and then I will do a miracle." Now there could be more then 1 reason for that.. but I don't believe that God does this to teach us, "If you obey me, I will do miracles for you." or anything like that. Rather, I think there is some sort of, perhaps delicate, balance that must be maintained, so that the purpose of this simulated environment holds true.
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VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
Surely this is a good answer. (I just realized I have been spelling "surely" wrong for my entire life.)
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VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
Sure. That is how I see it.
Well if there is fire in heaven, or in the spirit realm, then it is real fire. The fire here in the physical realm only resembles the real spirit fire in some way....maybe?
The same might also be true with water. The Bible talks a lot about water. About the water on earth and the rain cycle and so on. But it also mentions there is water in Heaven. In the real Heaven -not just the in the sky.
No?
Just don't call me Shirley.
VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
Evidently I typed out s-u-r-l-y one day, years ago and just went with it. Well, I guess you learn something new everyday.
VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
As promised, I have been thinking about your post. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I still think it makes more sense if we take Paul literally here. Let me try to explain why:
We must give God the final say in who is dead and who isn't. Afterall He is the one who made us alive. In Gen 2:17 God told Adam that if he ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil "In that day you shall surely die".
Atheists say "See, God is a liar. Adam didn't die on that day -he was still talking and walking around"
Christians typically counter that, arguing something like "Well on that day he died a symbolic death and then he died the real death later"
But maybe we are getting this sorta backwards. I think what happened is that when Adam ate from the tree, a part of his spirit became attached to the flesh. To the physical realm. Dead to God because Adam will now use this new attachment to sin.
Jesus, having the keys to death, can unlock that part of us. He can detach that part of our spirit from the flesh so that it is with Him. And He does! But it takes our physical brains a while to get used to it. So there is a developmental process involved. Like a new-born baby learning how to walk and talk. We don't all necessarily notice it immediately (like Paul did?). It is a different death. The opposite of Adams, who knew immediately he was naked.
Wouldn't that make sense? Paul wasn't just advising that "If we pretend we are dead, it will help make us better Christians." -who of us actually does that?
Likewise I do not think Paul is using symbolism here:
Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
Symbolism was for the Jews and not for Christians. No? Why would Christ fulfill symbolism just to replace it with more symbolism? Christ is the real deal. There is no symbolism. So I think Paul is being literal here. That we have died a real death when Jesus cut off part of our spirit from the body.
Paul continues:
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a [j]festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the [k]substance is of Christ.
Christ is the real deal. He is not a shadow of things to come. What Paul says about Him must be taken literally. He is not speaking of a symbolic circumcision nor a symbolic death or baptism. Christ gives us the real circumcision and the real baptism.
See what I mean?
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VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
Well sure. Just as Genesis describes God breathing the breath of life in to Adam when He created man.
I believe Job 33:4, likely the oldest book in the Bible, tells us what this breath of life is.
(Elihu is speaking)
"The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life."
This is a common form of parallelism. meant to indicate the author (or in this case, the speaker) is referring to the same thing when he writes "The Spirit of God" and "the breath of the Almighty. Meaning; The Spirit of God is the breath of the Almighty. No? So I believe the ancient language was built on this, So that is why the word means both things.
Does God sleep? Can cancer destroy His Spirit? I think not. So I do not believe in "soul sleep".
However, I can see why a person would. And surely the place where we go without our bodies when we die is a place of rest. Whether or not is a conscious rest or an unconscious one is basically what we are debating. It is an interesting thing to think about.
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Idolater
Popetard
Vlad
I've seen the Matrix movie and I've also seen the Sixth Sense movie, and I think your position on this matter reminds me more of the Sixth Sense, that we are dead people, and we don't know, or forgot, that we're dead. Paul here would be telling us dead people to refrain from sin and mortify our flesh, so that we remember we are dead, and do not forget. This is interesting because it entails that if we sin, then we forget the spiritual reality of our situation, we forget we are dead, we forget we are dead to sin, we forget; and the only cure, according to Paul, is to refrain from sin. Stop sinning. Don't sin. This is Paul, and he does it everywhere.
@VladtheDestroyer
I've seen the Matrix movie and I've also seen the Sixth Sense movie, and I think your position on this matter reminds me more of the Sixth Sense, that we are dead people, and we don't know, or forgot, that we're dead. Paul here would be telling us dead people to refrain from sin and mortify our flesh, so that we remember we are dead, and do not forget. This is interesting because it entails that if we sin, then we forget the spiritual reality of our situation, we forget we are dead, we forget we are dead to sin, we forget; and the only cure, according to Paul, is to refrain from sin. Stop sinning. Don't sin. This is Paul, and he does it everywhere.
@VladtheDestroyer
Derf
Well-known member
I agree it is parallelism, but the whole of each line parallels the whole of the other. So "the Spirit of God had made me" parallels "the breath of the Almighty gives me life," but taking a portion and comparing it with the other portion doesn't necessarily work. "Has made me" isn't an equivalent phrase to "gives me life" though they are very close. The two could be used in conjunction, like here:
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. [Gen 2:7 ESV]
You can see that "The Spirit of God has made me" fits Gen 2:7" but "the breath of the Almighty gives me life" only fits the latter part of Gen 2:7. Because part of making man was to form him.
If God's Spirit is what gives us life, then what happens when His Spirit leaves us (when we breath our last)? God's Spirit isn't there anymore, but we still are, returning to dust. Cancer can't destroy His Spirit, but cancer can destroy our bodies, which is the part of us that remains when His Spirit leaves.
I'm not too fond of the term "soul sleep" either, but if some part of us is sleeping when our bodies decay, then I guess it could be useful. The problem is that it suggests that whatever happens to our bodies doesn't matter. The Patriarchs didn't think this. Jacob asked his children to take him (not "his body") back to Canaan to bury him. Joseph asked that they take his bones back.
You speak as if we can "go" somewhere without our bodies. But if the first man was a formed lump of clay before God's Spirit was breathed into him, then what is he when that breath leaves him? Is that Spirit now the man (notice the capitalization)? Isn't the man now rather returning to dust? "The man", not "his body". God defined us in this way: "You are dust." He says our end is dust: "To dust you shall return." He didn't say "your body is dust."
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." [Gen 3:19 ESV]
All we are without His Spirit/our breath is dust. How can dust go to heaven or hell? Why?
VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
Sure. When I die, my spirit will leave my body. Part of my spirit has already left my body when I was saved. Jesus circumcised my flesh from that part of my spirit. We can't see it, But Paul knew it. So he is telling us that that is what happened. So I might even take it a step further and say Paul isn't necessarily telling us these things so we will remember this is what happened. He is telling us these things to help us realize that is what happened.
Men aren't born knowing that some of us are circumcised and some are not. Someone has to tell us. Paul is telling us.
VladtheDestroyer
Well-known member
I see what you are saying, but Gen 2:7 isn't a poem.
To me it seems poetry in the Bible often better informs us of the way of certain things.
Gen 2:7 is one dimensional. Though it almost reads exactly the same as Job 33:4, in Job it has an extra dimension, a parallelism. A bit of extra-information. No? What are you saying that bit of extra information is?
Yeah but Derf, we are not our bodies. We have bodies. My body is made of trillions of cells and I have no idea what any of them are doing. When I donated blood years ago, I didn't gain control of, or became a part of the person who received my blood. It was just blood that was in my body. And now it is someone else's body.
If I sin, God isn't going to punish both me and the person who received my blood.
Derf
Well-known member
The Young's Literal Translation puts it this way:
The Spirit of God hath made me, And the breath of the Mighty doth quicken me. [Job 33:4 YLT]
"Quicken" is mostly used to indicate enlivening someone who is dead or dying. If that's true here, then it gives both an original life-giving and a resurrection life-giving message, or at least that Job was saved from dying in the second half of the verse.
No, we are a combination of bodies and breath of life (not just a breeze, but some kind of life-force imparted to the previously unalive tissue). If both are required to have a living soul (KJV--living creature in the ESV, and living being in the NKJV), according to Gen 2:7, then without either, one does not have a living soul. Maybe there are other parts that aren't mentioned there, but at least you need those two.
Note that you don't need both to have a "man". According to Gen 2:7, God formed "man" from the dust of the ground, and breathed into "his" nostrils the breath of life. He had identity before he had breath of life. I'll cite the verse again for convenience:
And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. [Gen 2:7 KJV]
This assumes that you are something without your body, but that's what we're discussing. Is that scriptural?
Showing the greatness of God's creation, that we don't have to micromanage our body parts!
No, and cutting off something from our bodies is a good thing in some instances. Like circumcision for the Jews, or cutting off the arm or plucking the eye that causes us to stumble. Or even cutting our hair or fingernails. The parts are not the whole, but the whole gives identity to the parts. You are saying we can do without our bodies and still be us. I'm saying that's not what the bible appears to say. For instance, when Peter talked about Christ rising from the dead and compared him to David, he said that David is still buried (not just his body, but the entity referred to as David).
Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. [Act 2:29 KJV]
If "he" (David) had loosed from his body and was "in a better place", as we often say about dead loved ones, a sepulchre is hardly what I would call "better". But if David were a freed spirit, "he" would not be referred to as "buried", since you don't bury a spirit.
When Mary first came to Jesus' tomb, she saw it open and ran back to tell the disciples that "the Lord" was out of the tomb:
Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. [Jhn 20:2 KJV]
This wasn't resolved by the disciples saying, "Jesus is just fine, He doesn't need His body anymore." Fortunately for us, He did need His body, because "He" rose from the dead. He was not comfortably in some other place, but He was in His tomb until He rose alive from the dead. We agree (I think) that His resurrection is about His body, because even in your view, the spirit is not dead, only the body. The spirit isn't resurrected in your view, only reattached to the resurrected body, since the body is what dies. I'm saying that the bible seems to be saying that WE (including our bodies) will be resurrected, just like Jesus was.
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