ARCHIVE: Will You Be Celebrating Christmas?
- Thread starter Lucky
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Sozo
New member
Then why the reference to them being exposed to a different gospel? Paul was not as concerned with them excepting it, but rather preaching it to others. He did not want another gospel to creep in and bewitch them.
The "other" gospel, refers to righteousness through the works of the Law.
I don't think you give enough credit to teachers of another gospel. You only have to read the posts of godrulz to know that people are still being deceived about God's grace and His righteousness.
This is my point! The minds of those in the body of Christ, are in a constant battle to discern that which reveals the righteousness of God with that of their own righteousness. This is the struggle, not their behavior. Understanding one's identity in the body, is the only way that the behavior can be correctly affected, and the only way that it is real, and not external religion.
I agree! But Christmas is not a religious ceremony of any kind. It can be made as such, by anyone who chooses to do so, but so can any event.
I think you are going overboard in your understanding of what it means to be not of this world. Paul simply does not want us to do anything that promotes righteousness through human rituals or observances of any kind.
You & your family are welcome to come have Christmas with my family. I think you will find just how incredibly foolish your opinion is on our participation.
Don't forget "Jesus is the reason for the Season". I agree, Christians are notorious for manufacturing godless cliches that destroy the message of Christ.
I will try and finish responding to the rest of your post at a later time, we are having guests over tonight whom I will have an opportunity to share the gospel message with, as we gather to sing some carols, eat some cookies and drink some wine (Freestone Cabernet ...mmm :firechyld )
Gerlad
New member
Knight,
You might want to take a look at post 192 where Hilston answers Sozo's question, "How is celebrating Christmas a "different" gospel?" The Body's position with respect to the angelic realm is key here.
I rarely have time to keep up with what's going on here at TOL these days. I just want to say that I'm thankful for folks like Jim Hilston, Christine and others who continue to do a great job of defending Paul's gospel.
I'd also like to share one closing thought. Israel has always been identified in the world by their outward observances: ceremonies, rituals, religious clothing, etc.. If you look at the previously cited sections of Collossians 2 and Galatians 4, you would see that the Body Saint is identified by what he does NOT observe.
JB
Hilston wrote: There is no evidence that the churches in Galatia (Ga 1:2) were all of a sudden confused about being saved via grace, or that they were suddenly trying to earn their salvation by works.
Ga 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Ga 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
They understood the liberty by which Christ made them free, and had given up the religious ceremonies and holidays of their pagan past. Now Paul urges them to stand fast in that liberty and not to become entangled by moving from one set of religious holidays (the pagan ones) to another set of religious holidays (the Jewish ones).
Hilston wrote:
We really have to give more credit to those who learned directly from Paul. They understood grace and righteousness of Christ in their behalf. They knew that nothing they did could earn them heaven or salvation. It wasn't a lack of understanding that enticed them into the "weak and beggarly elements," or bewitched them into listening to the Judaizers, but rather their sin nature.
Hilston wrote:
As humans with a sin nature, we are easily and readily enticed or bewitched by external attractions and distractions, and as believers, we are especially struggle with those things that seem to honor God in an outward way. Paul reminds them that such behavior is characteristic of Israel's gospel, and not the Body gospel.
Hilston wrote:
Paul decried ceremonial observances for the churches of Galatia, in their case, the observances of Jewish festal rites and holidays, because the Body of Christ is seated in the heavens, above religious earthly ceremony of any kind.
Hilston wrote:
Paul was not prohibiting this just to be a big meanie, but rather because religious ceremonies and holidays of any kind amount to angel worship, which dishonors the blessings of Christ, who secured His Body to be co-seated with Him above the angelic realm.
Hilston wrote:
Christ-Mass is a religious observance. There's no way around it. The very name of the holiday is an indictment against those who celebrate it. Everywhere you look--the church marquis, public buildings, every street corner, the radio stations, the shopping malls, people's cars-- where is there NOT religious symbolism, ceremony and ritual surrounding this holiday?
Hilston wrote:
Add to that the fact that Christendumb heightens the religiosity by such campaigns as "Keep Christ in CHRISTmas," and "Wise men still seek Him", etc., and you have a full-on violation and dishonoring of Paul's gospel and the dispensationally exclusive blessings Christ has secured for the Body.
It was the Jewish gospel he was referring to. It's exactly what he was rebuking Peter for in Antioch: Imposing the Jewish gospel upon the Body of Christ. The danger or concern was not that they suddenly thought they could earn their salvation by observing Jewish rites and holidays, but rather that they somehow felt that this was honoring God and the proper way to move toward maturity and perfection.
Ga 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
That's not true, Sozo. The Galatians understood that righteousness does not come by the works of the Law.
Ga 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
They understood the liberty by which Christ made them free, and had given up the religious ceremonies and holidays of their pagan past. Now Paul urges them to stand fast in that liberty and not to become entangled by moving from one set of religious holidays (the pagan ones) to another set of religious holidays (the Jewish ones).
Hilston wrote:
We really have to give more credit to those who learned directly from Paul. They understood grace and righteousness of Christ in their behalf. They knew that nothing they did could earn them heaven or salvation. It wasn't a lack of understanding that enticed them into the "weak and beggarly elements," or bewitched them into listening to the Judaizers, but rather their sin nature.
Hilston wrote:
As humans with a sin nature, we are easily and readily enticed or bewitched by external attractions and distractions, and as believers, we are especially struggle with those things that seem to honor God in an outward way. Paul reminds them that such behavior is characteristic of Israel's gospel, and not the Body gospel.
So, as long as one understands the righteousness of God, it's OK to offer blood sacrifices to Dagon?
Hilston wrote:
Paul decried ceremonial observances for the churches of Galatia, in their case, the observances of Jewish festal rites and holidays, because the Body of Christ is seated in the heavens, above religious earthly ceremony of any kind.
Is the word "Christ" a religious word? How about "Mass"? How about the winter solstice, does that have any religious significance? How about the vast majority of the songs that are sung at this time? How about the Xmass tree? The lights? The angel decorations? The nativity scenes? The yule log? The giving of gifts? Is there any religious significance in these things? What planet are you from, Sozo?
Hilston wrote:
Paul was not prohibiting this just to be a big meanie, but rather because religious ceremonies and holidays of any kind amount to angel worship, which dishonors the blessings of Christ, who secured His Body to be co-seated with Him above the angelic realm.
Not at all. It has nothing to do with separation from the world. It has to do with obeying scriptures and not worshipping angels.
You keep claiming this, but the scriptures do not support your claim. He warns them against behavior by which they would serve angels (Gal 4:8). He says the behavior (not some desire to earn salvation by works) is tantamount to angel worship (Col 2:18).
Hilston wrote:
Christ-Mass is a religious observance. There's no way around it. The very name of the holiday is an indictment against those who celebrate it. Everywhere you look--the church marquis, public buildings, every street corner, the radio stations, the shopping malls, people's cars-- where is there NOT religious symbolism, ceremony and ritual surrounding this holiday?
Please tell me what is involved and what it means to "have Christmas" with the Sozo family.
Hilston wrote:
Add to that the fact that Christendumb heightens the religiosity by such campaigns as "Keep Christ in CHRISTmas," and "Wise men still seek Him", etc., and you have a full-on violation and dishonoring of Paul's gospel and the dispensationally exclusive blessings Christ has secured for the Body.
Do you mean the message of Christ in Christ-Mass? What is the message of Christ in Christ-Mass?
Then Hilston must be wrong.
This is the form of reasoning that is reminiscent of theater critic Pauline Kael, who reportedly reacted to Richard Nixon's landslide presidential victory over George McGovern in 1972 by saying, "How can that be? No one I know voted for Nixon."
Sozo
New member
I'm from the planet Earth. You?
Does this mean you might come?
I believe it has something to do with this:
And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Sozo
New member
Nope! Absolutely nothing. Only religiously minded people make Christmas a religious holiday.
Hanging out with family and friends (we do this just about everyday), exchanging gifts (We believe it's ok to give something to someone that they do not deserve), eating (we do this qite often at our house), and listening to music (some of it is about Jesus, and some of it is about snow).
I expect that kind of response from someone who doesn't regard the Bible as God's inerrant and infallible Word. There are a lot of things the elect know are wrong deep down. But we need the scriptures to verify whether it's true, or just indigestion. The same can be said of murder and adultery. Deep down, they know. Sometimes not so deep down they know.
That's the kind of answer I expect from someone who doesn't regard the scriptures as God's inerrant and infallible Word. The scriptures say that religious holidays are not "harmless;" they're demonic. That's what Paul says, and that's hardly "harmless." If you celebrate any religious holidays, you are repudiating Christ. Gal. 4:8-11 Col 2:8-23.
Observing the birth of your supposed savior is a matter of conscience and personal preference. That you'd have the tenacity, brass, and arrogance to believe the lion's share of Christendom "repudiates Christ" every 25th of December says more about you than the holiday you ignore.
You're not qualified to make that assessment, Granite. The scriptures prohibit the observance of religious holidays. And as a rebel against the inerrancy and infallibility of God's Word, you will be rightly judged for your disobedience to this gospel if you fail to repent.
It doesn't matter what I say, Granite. Look at what the scriptures say. Look now or be forced to see it later. It isn't my tenacity (what's tenacity got to do with this -- perhaps you meant "temerity"?) or my "brass" or my "arrogance" that will judge you and the majority of Christendumb, but Paul's gospel (Ro 2:16), which emphatically decries and prohibits religious holidays.
By the way, most of Christendumb offends God more than just once a year. Every communion ritual, every water baptism, every special robe or clerical collar, every special time of devotion, every special rule of the "sanctuary", every Easter, every National Day of Prayer, every WWJD bracelet or t-shirt and every cross on every necklace and church building is a direct offense against God and the laws of this dispensation.
STONE
New member
Hilston though you have broght up an intelligent argument (which I once agreed with in principle), you have arrived at a wrong conclusion to the passages you've quoted.
It appears your impression is that Christians 'observe' holidays out of worship or requirement.
While some christians might be misled doing this you seem to propose believers are forbidden from holidays...even ones that when celibrated as intended inform unbelievers about Jesus.
Paul's intent in the passages you quoted, and ones like it, are to remove us from the entanglement in the notion that our relationship with God is based on observances...including your observance of avoidance.
This does not mean we are forbidden to observe a holiday or a Law, but that we (believers) are freed from the bondage of Law between us and God.
Is it wrong to Covet? to steal? to lie? to adulter? to murder? to dishonor one's parents? to use the name of the Lord in vain? To commit idolatry?
Does it bring honor to God when a believer does these things?
But you are saying if a believer participates in a sabbath or holiday he dishonors God when even God rested on His sabbath.
In truth, the entire torah brings honor to God; yet the believer's relationship with Him is not based on the Torah, but on Christ.
Dispensationalism can become a very sticky web.
It appears your impression is that Christians 'observe' holidays out of worship or requirement.
While some christians might be misled doing this you seem to propose believers are forbidden from holidays...even ones that when celibrated as intended inform unbelievers about Jesus.
Paul's intent in the passages you quoted, and ones like it, are to remove us from the entanglement in the notion that our relationship with God is based on observances...including your observance of avoidance.
This does not mean we are forbidden to observe a holiday or a Law, but that we (believers) are freed from the bondage of Law between us and God.
Is it wrong to Covet? to steal? to lie? to adulter? to murder? to dishonor one's parents? to use the name of the Lord in vain? To commit idolatry?
Does it bring honor to God when a believer does these things?
But you are saying if a believer participates in a sabbath or holiday he dishonors God when even God rested on His sabbath.
In truth, the entire torah brings honor to God; yet the believer's relationship with Him is not based on the Torah, but on Christ.
Dispensationalism can become a very sticky web.
Incorrect. If they observe religious holidays for any reason, whether for fellowship, fun, food, or fantasy football, the fact of observing the holiday suffices to indict them, according to Paul’s epistles.
That is exactly what I propose based on Paul’s teachings:All believers are prohibited according to the testimony of scripture regarding religious holidays.
Where is your proof text?
Don’t play this equivocation game with me. Non-observance is not an observance. Just as non-eating is not eating, and non-celebration is not celebration.
No, it means we are forbidden to observe a holiday. We are indeed freed from our bondage to law, but not freed from obeying the law.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes.
No.
Not me, but the risen, glorified Christ is saying it through Paul's writings. The Body of Christ was chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). Whereas Israel and the nations were chosen from the foundation of the world (Rev 17:18). The Body of Christ is not of the earthly hope, as Israel and the nations are, and therefore not subject to earthly ordinances, such as Sabbath keeping.
The believer’s relationship (right standing) with God is based on the blood of Christ alone. Obedience is essential and desired by the elect, not because one’s relationship is dependent on it, but because regeneration drives the elect to obey and to seek to do that which honors God.
Only for those who do not properly understand it.
LightSon
New member
Yep! And to manufacture an argument from scripture where one does not exist is shameful. But sex-rock, er um AC/DC is okay. :doh:
It worked for Scrooge, for awhile at least.
And before I forget, I "regard the scriptures as God's inerrant and infallible Word." I just don't like to see it twisted to suit personal hobby horses.
STONE
New member
True, non-observance is not an observance per-se; I am only saying you are possibly unknowingly making it an observance.
I don't mean to belittle you Hilston, I do appreciate your zeal in this matter and know you are gifted. It is possible for any of us to misunderstand or come to a wrong conclusion.
You definitely understand scripture very well. Let's go to the texts which which deal with this subject and see where that leads us.
It exists. I've proven it several times. No one has disproven it, including yourself. But that comes as no surprise, LightSon, because you avoided biblical arguments in the other thread as well. What is it with you? You enjoy doing your cute little drive-bys, but you refuse to actually engage the discussion in any meaningful way. Why?
You're a legalist, LightSon. I told you before, and I proved it in the other thread where you have yet to respond. Even Yorzhik pointed this out to you. So if you wish to be regarded as an intelligent and honorable person, you will get involved in the discussion in an intelligent, informed and rational manner, examining the scriptures with the rest of us. If you want to be regarded as an evader, a coward and an abject fool, continue with your inane stone-throwing so my friends and I can have yet another belly-laugh at your ineptitude. :freak: