ARCHIVE: Will You Be Celebrating Christmas?
- Thread starter Lucky
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novice
Who is the stooge now?
Some arguments are just too silly to debate. Like this one! I also don't debate people who think we never went to the moon or that the great Tribulation already took place.
Not to mention your argument has already been dismantled by about 10 people on this thread. Why should I beat a dead horse?
On the contrary, Knight, Paul is warning them against observing religious holidays. He warns them against taking Jewish observances for themselves (they are shadows for Israel). Elsewhere in the passage, he equates all religious holiday, even pagan and made-up ones, which have the appearance of righteous behavior, but are actually inane. That's what the passage says. You can try to twist it around to fit your fatuous protest, but anyone thinking rationally will see that you don't have a leg to stand on.
That's not what that means, Knight. The only way to stop someone from judging (krino, distinguishing, regulating, esteeming) you according to religious holidays is to abstain from them.Originally posted by Knight
Paul says... "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival"
Jim.... I am not gonna let you judge me!
It's quite biblical, Knight. Your saying it is "unbiblical regulation" doesn't account for the many passages that say it is quite biblical.
Every time you say this, it indicates to me that you have a low view of dispensational truth. You view the Mystery teachings as optional. Paul viewed the Mystery as his raison d'etre, to make all men see what is the dispensation of the Mystery (Eph 3:9). By your dismissal of these distinctive teachings of Paul, you trash the Word of God and trample the blood of Christ whereby He secured the great blessings of the Mystery for His elect.
Sadly, you somehow miss the fact that the "different gospel" Paul was warning against was the Jewish gospel, complete with ceremonies, rituals, symbolism, and holidays. He was warning the Galatians not to follow the religious hoildays of Israel. That is why Paul rebuked Peter to his face in Antioch and considered it important to write about to the Galatians. Peter was not suddenly trying to work for his salvation, as you continually assert by your foolhardy argument. Rather, Peter was dishonoring the Body gospel by allowing the Judaizers to impose their religious rituals and food laws on the Body saints. The Judaizers sought to esteem and distinguish (krino) the Body saints according to ceremonial behavior, exactly what Paul warns against in Colossians 2:16.
Wrong, Knight. That is bald eisogesis. The Galatians understood grace. They would not, all of a sudden, try to earn their salvation by works! They were being beguiled and allowing themselves to forget the distinctive nature of Paul's gospel.
I know you wish really hard that this was so. Then you could go on doing what is right in your own eyes, and to hell with what Paul says. But Paul is not warning against a believer suddenly thinking he can earn his salvation by works. These passages have nothing to do with Paul's audience suddenly forgetting they've been saved by grace through faith. To the Colossians Paul describes "the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth" (Colossians 1:5,6). It is ridiculous to think that these believers would suddenly try to earn their salvation.
Paul warns the Colossians to beware, not of suddenly deciding to earn their salvation by works, but of the beguiling philosophy and vain deceit of religious ceremony and ritual, the traditions of men, and the Jewish rites ("rudiments/elements of this order" Col 2:8). Paul says that the members of the Body of Christ are not subject to the angelic authority that governs ceremonial/religious ritual observances, stating emphatically that we are complete in Christ, who is the head over the angelic realm (Col 2:9,10). Christ put off, in behalf of the Body of Christ (not for Israel, who were still under religious ceremony), the angelic authority and declared this openly, demonstrating the triumph of His sacrifice in securing the Body of Christ above principalities and powers, and therefore, above all religious ritual (Col 2:14,15). Christ has freed us from religious rituals, ceremonies and holidays. To do them again is to put ourselves under angels, to dishonor the created order and to enslaves our selves to those very things from which He died to free us.
So when Paul, in the next verses, says, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ," his point cannot be missed. He is not merely saying "Don't give creedance to anyone's discernment regarding holidays." He is prohibiting their observance entirely. Those who celebrate religious holidays have been beguiled by the philosophy and vain deceit of reliigous ceremony, symbolism and ritualism and have submitted themselves to angels. See the very next verse:
"Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, ..."
Paul says that this is tantamount to denying Christ as Head, the very title that places Him, and by extension, the Body of Christ, above the principalities and powers (angels, see Col 2:9,10). Paul says that celebrating religious holidays amounts to:
"... not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God." (Col 2:19)
Paul then, again, states that these religious observances are those things we are dead to, if we are in Christ:
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, ..." (Col 2:20).
He then asks, if that is true, if indeed you are dead to these things in Christ, why do them?
"... why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." (Col 2:23).
This is not optional. This is not a matter of preference. This is a glaring and emphatic prohibition.
Consider his similar proscriptions to the Galatians. He refers to their pre-Body days, "when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world (Gal 4:3)" This is the same phrase we see in Colossians: Rudiments of this order, namely, the religious observances of this world. Paul refers to the pre-Body time when they were subject to the angelic realm, "when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods." The angelic realm, although they are not gods by nature, are nonetheless gods by appointment, whether demonic or holy. Paul says elsewhere that there are gods many and lords many, both in heaven and on earth (angels and demons), but for the Body of Christ, there is one God, the Father (1Co 8:4-6 Eph 4:4-6).
In Galatians, Paul continues, this time chiding them for being snuckered back to the things they were delivered from: "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? (Gal 4:9)" Paul is equating Jewish religious ritual with pagan religious ritual, for there is no difference for a member of the Body of Christ, whether you celebrate Passover, Mithraic communion, or Christmas, these are the "weak and beggarly elements (same word as above: rudiments) ... Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid [for] you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. (Gal 4:10,11)."
How can it be any more clear? Do not observe religious days, months or times. Do not submit to the rudiments of religious ceremony, symbolism or ritual. The Body of Christ is above these angelically (or demonically) mediated observances and practices.
Christine
New member
Hi Novice,
No one, including Hilston, "fooled" me into believing this way. I was presented with evidence for this view, studied it out, and came to accept it. Even before I had been presented with the scriptures, I had been dis-satisfied with Christmas and knew something wasn't right.
Again... holidays observed as a WORK I would agree with you 100%.
People shouldn't observe holidays of they think they need to. The scriptures you have provided make that pretty clear.
The problem is nobody is stating that we need to celebrate holidays as work!
And therefore your entire argument is built on a false premise.
Hey Christine! I am glad you made an appearance.
I was wondering if you would respond to what I asked you on page three of this thread.
If Paul says "let no man judge you in holidays" why on earth would you let some man tell you that holidays are forbidden?
I was wondering if you would respond to what I asked you on page three of this thread.
If Paul says "let no man judge you in holidays" why on earth would you let some man tell you that holidays are forbidden?
Try to get this, Knight: Neither was anybody Paul was writing to. Do you get that? The argument stands because what you're claiming as Paul's reasoning is not the case at all, by Paul's own words. His audience understood grace. His audience understood salvation as a gift and not a work. So what then could he have been talking about? Certainly not what you're talking about. Working for their salvation? Not only do you disrespect people here and expect them to take your word against mine without argument, but you disrespect the believers of scripture by assuming that they were a lot stupider than you and needed Paul to re-teach them about not working for their salvation.
Go ahead and say it again, Knight, cuz I know your brain won't allow you to understand the above paragraph:
You are wrong.
The entire book of Galatians is on this very point.
Even the verse directly before the verse you use as a proof text states....
It's amazing!!! Are you on autopilot? Did you even read my previous post? Are you completely incapable of discursive thought and coherent reasoning?
Why should Christine let you judge her about her decision to obey the dispensational truths that you so blithely despise and trample underfoot? Why should she give a flying fallujah about listening to someone who doesn't have the good sense to honor the teachings Paul gave his life for?
Thank you Jim.Originally posted by Hilston
Go ahead and say it again, Knight, cuz I know your brain won't allow you to understand the above paragraph:
Thank you Christine.
Ah yes. I see. It says,
"But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements by which ye seek to be saved by works, being such hapless schlubs and unfortunate dolts, nowhere near as smart as Knight, that suddenly you've forgotten everything I taught you when I was with you." :kookoo:
How could I have missed that?
I am not sure.
Sozo
New member
That is exactly what Paul was opposing in Galatians.
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel.
How is celebrating Christmas a "different" gospel?
Do you seriously believe that anyone is trying to be made righteous through a celebration with family and friends sharing gifts?
But not even Titus who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. But it was because of the false brethren who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage. But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.
Those who are disturbing the Galatians, are trying to bring them back under the Law, by spying on them to see if they are circumcised or not, because they believed that Timothy needed to keep the Law to be righteous. Do you believe that everyone who is circumcised has fallen from grace?
For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
I don't believe that anyone here is compelling anyone to celebrate Christmas to be right with God.
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Christine
New member
I've been lurking all along. When Mr. Hilston jumped in I exited the stage as he can answer much better than I can.
Certainly
I believe you are quoting part of Col 2:16. I find the rest of the context of the passage to be quite interesting, especially verse 20 to the end. I've pasted verse 16 and following below.
" Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using
after the commandments and doctrines of men?"Verse 17 says that all those rites, holy days, and ordanices referred to in verse 16 are a shadow of things to come. Many of those signs showed the Jews signs of Christ's coming. Now that Christ has come and set up His Body, things are a different. Now we are told to that we are not subject to the ordinances We Body members don't have to keep the Sabbath, we don't have religious rituals to keep, and we don't have holy days. We aren't like the Jews, we don't have to have someone telling us what we can't eat, what holy days to keep, and other such ordinances. We Body members are above that.
Christine... if anyone here is celebrating Christmas as an ordinance then I am with you 100%!!!
But the truth is.... no one is! Do you know anyone who is?
Christians don't view Christmas as an ordinance! (And again... if they do view it as an ordinance then they are wrong).
Hilston and your objection to Christmas is based on the flawed premise that Christmas is an ordinance and therefore your conclusion that Christmas is forbidden is in error!
If you choose not to celebrate Christmas that is your prerogative. But by telling others that Christmas (as celebrated in modern times) is forbidden is like giving an ordinance of your own!
Let's clear this up once and for all....
Who do you know on TOL thinks that celebrating Christmas is an ordinance?
LightSon
New member
Well said, James! I couldn't agree more. But you left out something. How about this?
It is no more legalistic to prohibit religious holidays than it is to prohibit murder, dunkenness, [relishing lyrics which promote sexual sin and debauchery]. The laws are there.
And you have the nerve to dub me a legalist because I called you on your AC/DC lifestyle. :ha: You are a walking contradiction to Phil 4:8.
Let's review:
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things
Even by your definition of legalist, I am not, since my qualms about your music choices are directly based on Biblical principles. Scripture doesn't always get explicit about immoral behavior. I hope that isn't your argument. I think you know all of this, but just can't seem to bring yourself to wash your hands of Satan's music. The next best tactic is to divert the readers' attention by attacking ol' LightSon and calling him names. Bad form.
AC/DC is not about Phil 4:8, Mr. Hilston. Please reconsider your walk; it is murky at best. The spiritually weak will follow you on this point, and I do think the Lord will hold you and me accountable for whom we lead astray and with what we fill our minds.