Balder On Morals

[Balder]

Nineveh, I don't think there's anything to apologize for. I used the word "seems" in my comment to you about the impression your response gave. Because if it's obvious to you that not all pagans are human sacrificers, then it should also be obvious that your response was inadequate and really irrelevant. My observation was that you've been insinuating that pagans hate God and will inevitably engage in the atrocities you've been mentioning. I pointed out that many pagans in history have actually been more peaceful and righteous, as communities, than Christians have been. You pointed then to instances of human sacrifice by certain groups of pagans thousands of years ago, as if that rebutted my argument. It obviously doesn't rebut it at all.

 

[Nineveh]

Comparing someone who gets an STD from unprotected sex to a pregnant woman whose belly is shredded because she or her neighbor worshipped a statue is apples and oranges, Nineveh.

Now...

Try comparing the admonitions from God concerning the activities that lead to those consequences.

And now I've got a problem: I asked when the rape of foreign women is an appropriate modern punishment and you said "never." So was it appropriate in the past and why?

Never means... never. But you you seem to have favored lopping off the rest of that reply to continue down your path of blaming God for the consequences of freewill actions.

As for the rest of your post, this thread is here for anyone who wants to read it. I am confident enough in my replies to let folks be the judge of what is and is not on here.

 

[Nineveh]

Nineveh, I don't think there's anything to apologize for. I used the word "seems" in my comment to you about the impression your response gave. Because if it's obvious to you that not all pagans are human sacrificers, then it should also be obvious that your response was inadequate and really irrelevant. My observation was that you've been insinuating that pagans hate God and will inevitably engage in the atrocities you've been mentioning. I pointed out that many pagans in history have actually been more peaceful and righteous, as communities, than Christians have been. You pointed then to instances of human sacrifice by certain groups of pagans thousands of years ago, as if that rebutted my argument. It obviously doesn't rebut it at all.

That took a lot of effort. It doesn't absolve your mischaracterization of what I said, but I imagine it makes you a bit more comfortable about your lie.

It appears we can not even progress about something that simple. Such is life.

 

[Granite]

Now...

Try comparing the admonitions from God concerning the activities that lead to those consequences.



Never means... never. But you you seem to have favored lopping off the rest of that reply to continue down your path of blaming God for the consequences of freewill actions.

As for the rest of your post, this thread is here for anyone who wants to read it. I am confident enough in my replies to let folks be the judge of what is and is not on here.

The admonitions and the consequences? What are you talking about? You didn't really address what I said.

Okay. So rape is never an appropriate judgment. In that case, why did it happen? If the judgment wasn't appropriate and if Jehovah forsaw that it would, is this just an example of the judgment not fitting the crime? Or is this a case where the penalty and its specifics was simply not in Jehovah's hands?

I fail to see how gutting a pregnant woman is ever something that is deserved or fitting.

As for the rest of my post...well, onlookers will be sorely disappointed, because you simply didn't reply to it. You pulled the same stunt on Balder.

 

[Balder]

Nineveh, do you or do you not think that all pagans (e.g., non-Christians) are evil god-haters who can be counted on to commit the atrocities recorded in the Bible? If not, why did you use the human sacrifice example in your reply to me, as if human sacrifice is a regular practice of non-Christians?

Concerning the other, main arguments of this thread: I am with Granite on this. The thread itself is bold testimony to your evasiveness. Something I've encountered numerous times in discussions with you. I guess it's necessary in order to preserve your carefully constructed but ultimately precarious edifice....

 

[Nineveh]

The admonitions and the consequences? What are you talking about?

:doh:

Okay. So rape is never an appropriate judgment. In that case, why did it happen?

That's what happened when folks overran another nation. If you don't like such barbaric behavior, you'll have to protest Assyria.

If the judgment wasn't appropriate and if Jehovah forsaw that it would, is this just an example of the judgment not fitting the crime? Or is this a case where the penalty and its specifics was simply not in Jehovah's hands?

It's one example of many of God telling Israel not to make pacts with the pagans, worship their gods, marry their women, etc. Why? Because if Israel wanted another God, The Creator God was willing to let them have it, and the bad things He said would happens did.

Not because He predestined it all "from before the foundations of the world", but becasue that's how He knew they would be treated and warned them in advance.

I fail to see how gutting a pregnant woman is ever something that is deserved or fitting.

Maybe that's why God wanted Israel to stay with Him instead of putting themselves in the place this sort of thing could happen.

As for the rest of my post...well, onlookers will be sorely disappointed, because you simply didn't reply to it. You pulled the same stunt on Balder.

"The admonitions and the consequences? What are you talking about?" Whatever you say, granite.

 

[Granite]

:doh:




That's what happened when folks overran another nation. If you don't like such barbaric behavior, you'll have to protest Assyria.



It's one example of many of God telling Israel not to make pacts with the pagans, worship their gods, marry their women, etc. Why? Because if Israel wanted another God, The Creator God was willing to let them have it, and the bad things He said would happens did.

Not because He predestined it all "from before the foundations of the world", but becasue that's how He knew they would be treated and warned them in advance.



Maybe that's why God wanted Israel to stay with Him instead of putting themselves in the place this sort of thing could happen.




"The admonitions and the consequences? What are you talking about?" Whatever you say, granite.

Out of curiosity: how do you explain how in each instance of apostasy Israel never prospered? Was that coincidence, or what is explanation for how in every instance they were brutalized and over run?

So you're saying these judgments and penalties as described by Jehovah were what--what amounts to a lucky guess?

 

[Nineveh]

Nineveh, do you or do you not think that all pagans (e.g., non-Christians) are evil god-haters who can be counted on to commit the atrocities recorded in the Bible? If not, why did you use the human sacrifice example in your reply to me, as if human sacrifice is a regular practice of non-Christians?

You: "There are pagan traditions that are definitely more peaceful than the Judeo-Christian ones in both theory and historical record."

Scriptures: pass through the fire to Molech

In context were are talking about people who weren't vegetarian tree huggers. These folks were actually barbaric. All pagans? I'm not talking about Aztecs. That should go without saying. But then again, context isn't your stong suit. Your characterization of what I said is still in error.

Concerning the other, main arguments of this thread: I am with Granite on this. The thread itself is bold testimony to your evasiveness. Something I've encountered numerous times in discussions with you. I guess it's necessary in order to preserve your carefully constructed but ultimately precarious edifice....

Oh it's a testimony to evasiveness alright, I'll even toss in willful ignorance.

 

[Nineveh]

Out of curiosity: how do you explain how in each instance of apostasy Israel never prospered? Was that coincidence, or what is explanation for how in every instance they were brutalized and over run?

Could you please clarify this a bit?

So you're saying these judgments and penalties as described by Jehovah were what--what amounts to a lucky guess?

I'm saying that consequences to actions are pretty easy for God to know. Especially as He is the Creator and can see the hearts of men and even easier after the first few times it happens.

Out of curiosity, and perhaps you have answered this before but, were you calvinistic back in your pre apostate days?

 

[Balder]

Redfin is reading this thread. Maybe he'll set me straight. He has a way of presenting logical, cogent arguments that I can make sense of.

 

[Granite]

Could you please clarify this a bit?



I'm saying that consequences to actions are pretty easy for God to know. Especially as He is the Creator and can see the hearts of men and even easier after the first few times it happens.

Out of curiosity, and perhaps you have answered this before but, were you calvinistic back in your pre apostate days?

Sure. You said: "It's one example of many of God telling Israel not to make pacts with the pagans, worship their gods, marry their women, etc. Why? Because if Israel wanted another God, The Creator God was willing to let them have it, and the bad things He said would happens did."

In other words: turn to other gods, and something terrible will happen. This led to my question: why did Israel always suffer, always go into bondage, and always run into trouble when they committed idolatry? Hope you can see this problem: weren't the odds out there that they would eventually prosper as idol worshippers? If Jehovah wasn't directly punishing them, and if these atrocities the Assyrians committed weren't something Jehovah had a hand in, why wasn't there a time when idolatrous Israel was, say, stinking rich? Or at least at peace? Or is there something intrinstic about idolatry that inevitably leads to foreign subjugation and turmoil?

Hope this clarifies.

I was a Calvinist then, not that it has any bearing on what I am now.

 

[PKevman]

Question: does the Lord ever condemn the nations for the atrocities they committed against Israel?

If you read the passage in Zechariah, you will see that God judges those nations that come against Israel HARSHLY in verses 3-8. It also indicates that your understanding of God is flawed when you are so desparate to make Him out to be wicked. Perchance that is why you are a Satanist?

Question: under what circumstances is the murder and rape of a woman by a foreign soldier an appropriate judgment today?

It is never an appropriate judgment today. God never condones that behavior but states that it will happen because He knew the Assyrians and how they operated. Your understanding of "I will" is flawed. Question for Granite:
Are there instances in the Bible where people reject God's will??


God bless.

 

[Nineveh]

Sure.

Much obliged

You said: "It's one example of many of God telling Israel not to make pacts with the pagans, worship their gods, marry their women, etc. Why? Because if Israel wanted another God, The Creator God was willing to let them have it, and the bad things He said would happens did."

In other words: turn to other gods, and something terrible will happen. This led to my question: why did Israel always suffer, always go into bondage, and always run into trouble when they committed idolatry? Hope you can see this problem: weren't the odds out there that they would eventually prosper as idol worshippers? If Jehovah wasn't directly punishing them, and if these atrocities the Assyrians committed weren't something Jehovah had a hand in, why wasn't there a time when idolatrous Israel was, say, stinking rich? Or at least at peace? Or is there something intrinstic about idolatry that inevitably leads to foreign subjugation and turmoil?

Sometimes, for long spans of time, they did just fine, financially speaking. I wouldn't consider sacrificing their kids to molech (et al) as "prosperous" though, nor the other inevitable evils that went with being godless IE sexual immorality and the like. Perhaps the pacts didn't break down as fast or a different ruler would come to power or the nature of their god took it's toll and broke down their society to the place they became vulnerable to invading forces.

Hope this clarifies.

It did, thanks

I was a Calvinist then, not that it has any bearing on what I am now.

You may not realize it, but some of your arguments seem rooted in calvinism.

 

[Granite]

If you read the passage in Zechariah, you will see that God judges those nations that come against Israel HARSHLY in verses 3-8. It also indicates that your understanding of God is flawed when you are so desparate to make Him out to be wicked. Perchance that is why you are a Satanist?



It is never an appropriate judgment today. God never condones that behavior but states that it will happen because He knew the Assyrians and how they operated. Your understanding of "I will" is flawed. Question for Granite:
Are there instances in the Bible where people reject God's will??


God bless.

So they're punished harshly for doing his will. Talk about a catch-22.

I'm not desperate to make a non-existent deity out to be "wicked," Kev, I'm more interested in examining the arguments and thinking of some on TOL. You don't know me at all so, while you're not leaving me a smarmy neg rep, please don't try to psychoanalyze me.

Have a nice day.

 

[PKevman]

So they're punished harshly for doing his will. Talk about a catch-22.

They're punished harshly because they commit wicked atrocities. There is no catch-22 if the Calvinism is eliminated from your viewpoint.

 

[Granite]

Much obliged



Sometimes, for long spans of time, they did just fine, financially speaking. I wouldn't consider sacrificing their kids to molech (et al) as "prosperous" though, nor the other inevitable evils that went with being godless IE sexual immorality and the like. Perhaps the pacts didn't break down as fast or a different ruler would come to power or the nature of their god took it's toll and broke down their society to the place they became vulnerable to invading forces.



It did, thanks



You may not realize it, but some of your arguments seem rooted in calvinism.

The height of Israel's financial prosperity came while Solomon was still worshipping Jehovah which, by your rationale, makes perfect sense. I'm actually not aware of a state of prosperity existing within either kingdom after the split--which would explain why both Israel and Judah were vulnerable to pressure and invasion. (Also one would expect Israel, the larger of the two kingdoms, to be most resistant to foreign pressures, yet it was conquered first.)

 

[Granite]

They're punished harshly because they commit wicked atrocities. There is no catch-22 if the Calvinism is eliminated from your viewpoint.

Atrocities he saw coming a mile away. With or without Calvinism or Arminianism or the so called open view this is still a bit of a quandry; and why exactly does Jehovah need an earthly middle man to carry out judgment, anyhow?

 

[Chileice]

Sure. You said: "It's one example of many of God telling Israel not to make pacts with the pagans, worship their gods, marry their women, etc. Why? Because if Israel wanted another God, The Creator God was willing to let them have it, and the bad things He said would happens did."

In other words: turn to other gods, and something terrible will happen. This led to my question: why did Israel always suffer, always go into bondage, and always run into trouble when they committed idolatry? Hope you can see this problem: weren't the odds out there that they would eventually prosper as idol worshippers? If Jehovah wasn't directly punishing them, and if these atrocities the Assyrians committed weren't something Jehovah had a hand in, why wasn't there a time when idolatrous Israel was, say, stinking rich? Or at least at peace? Or is there something intrinstic about idolatry that inevitably leads to foreign subjugation and turmoil?

Hope this clarifies.

Under Jereboam II the Israelites were quite wealthy and quite misled. They did get rich apart from God but their unfaithfuless is what would do them in. There were many who did NOT return from the exile in Babilonia because they were too stinking comfortable. But comfort does not make for a blessed life by itself. Read the book of Habakkuk and you will see how the prophet bemoans the prosperity of the godless but how God lets him in on a secret: The righteous will live by faith. By faith and faithfulness.

I was a Calvinist then, not that it has any bearing on what I am now.

 

[Chileice]

Sure. You said: "It's one example of many of God telling Israel not to make pacts with the pagans, worship their gods, marry their women, etc. Why? Because if Israel wanted another God, The Creator God was willing to let them have it, and the bad things He said would happens did."

In other words: turn to other gods, and something terrible will happen. This led to my question: why did Israel always suffer, always go into bondage, and always run into trouble when they committed idolatry? Hope you can see this problem: weren't the odds out there that they would eventually prosper as idol worshippers? If Jehovah wasn't directly punishing them, and if these atrocities the Assyrians committed weren't something Jehovah had a hand in, why wasn't there a time when idolatrous Israel was, say, stinking rich? Or at least at peace? Or is there something intrinstic about idolatry that inevitably leads to foreign subjugation and turmoil?

Hope this clarifies.


I was a Calvinist then, not that it has any bearing on what I am now.

Sorry about that... I somehow got my thoughts inside your quote. I must be in your mind :jump:

Anyway here it is again so people know what was mine and what was your quote:

There were times of great prosperity after Solomon's time. Under Jereboam II the Israelites were quite wealthy and quite misled. They did get rich apart from God but their unfaithfuless is what would do them in. There were many who did NOT return from the exile in Babilonia because they were too stinking comfortable. But comfort does not make for a blessed life by itself. Read the book of Habakkuk and you will see how the prophet bemoans the prosperity of the godless but how God lets him in on a secret: The righteous will live by faith. By faith and faithfulness.

 

[Ecumenicist]

The height of Israel's financial prosperity came while Solomon was still worshipping Jehovah which, by your rationale, makes perfect sense. I'm actually not aware of a state of prosperity existing within either kingdom after the split--which would explain why both Israel and Judah were vulnerable to pressure and invasion. (Also one would expect Israel, the larger of the two kingdoms, to be most resistant to foreign pressures, yet it was conquered first.)

To add to Chil's discourse...

I think the Omri - Ahab / Jezebel era was pretty prosperous for the northern kingdom.
Omri tried to get some trade route oriented revenues flowing, with some
success, hence the introduction of the Phoenician princess, an attempt to foster
international cooperation.

Elijah, of course, took some issue with that...

I think Assyria took out Israel because they were a good trade route to the sea,
going around Judah was relatively easy so there wasn't as much to be gained.

Judah also survived because Jerusalem had that well delivering water to the city, so it
could outlast sieges.

And of course, they had God on their side