BATTLE TALK ~ Battle Royale IV - JALTUS vs. s9s27s54
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Caution, this site may provide historical truth that will cause YOU some pent-up frustration:
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/reformers.htm
When one get all the facts, the polish loses it's luster. The daubing of this wall named Luther with untempered mortar is exposed. (Ezek 13:1-15) We are instructed to not have any peace with false teachings/teachers, yet just as Catholics embrace their popes, so do protestants embrace their own.
Interesting, but a bit one-sided in showing the facts.
As for the peasant revolt, does anyone recall Romans 13?
Martin Luther was definitely an anti-Semite...for the last 3-5 years of his life when he was basically losing his mind. Before that he did not show any such ideas.
Calvin was correct in killing Servitus, the man denyed the Trinity and was told to stay away from Geneva or he would be killed. Coming back was just plain stupid.
As for the peasant revolt, does anyone recall Romans 13?
Martin Luther was definitely an anti-Semite...for the last 3-5 years of his life when he was basically losing his mind. Before that he did not show any such ideas.
Calvin was correct in killing Servitus, the man denyed the Trinity and was told to stay away from Geneva or he would be killed. Coming back was just plain stupid.
Huldrych
Thanks for putting in the leg work on this.
We must have the same Luther 1912, as mine also puts vv 7, 8 at the bottom.
Shlatter was at Tübingen; he kept a balance between Pietism and Academia, loosing favour with many because of it. He also sought a mediating line between the Reformed Church and the Lutheran, not being bound by any confessional status.
Wrote Kennen wir Jesus?, Erlaüterungen (on the NT) a set of NT commentaries, an NT theology and Christliche Dogma, all available from Calwer Verlag.
He was Swiss, and used that position to denounce the Nazi's (like Barth)as much as he could before he died in 1938. Grand son of Anna Shlatter, of the Erweckung in Switzerland and Southern Germany at the end of the 18th century.
Thanks for putting in the leg work on this.
We must have the same Luther 1912, as mine also puts vv 7, 8 at the bottom.
Shlatter was at Tübingen; he kept a balance between Pietism and Academia, loosing favour with many because of it. He also sought a mediating line between the Reformed Church and the Lutheran, not being bound by any confessional status.
Wrote Kennen wir Jesus?, Erlaüterungen (on the NT) a set of NT commentaries, an NT theology and Christliche Dogma, all available from Calwer Verlag.
He was Swiss, and used that position to denounce the Nazi's (like Barth)as much as he could before he died in 1938. Grand son of Anna Shlatter, of the Erweckung in Switzerland and Southern Germany at the end of the 18th century.
P
Pilgrimagain
Guest
I don't want to seem stuck up or anything, and I realise that you can get a good start on some research using the "popular" web, but really, how reputible are any sources that are not subject to peer review which is what that site is.
Web sources for the most part are just opinion.
Web sources for the most part are just opinion.
Huldrych
New member
Yeah, I forgot that Stuttgart is in Baden-Württemberg. It's the same edition, for sure.
Thanks for the bio sketch. That sounds like a person I would like to read about.
The mention of standing against the Nazis really caught my attention, since my Master’s thesis dealt with the churches’ passivity and opposition in relation to the Nazis during the Hitler years. I just recently finished retyping my thesis in electronic document form (MS Word, specifically) with some additional annotations, translating the German quotes, and adding a few comments here and there from related items I had come across since I submitted it and defended it in 1995. You’re welcome to a copy, if you’re interested.
Blessings,
jth
Huldrych
New member
Verdict: hot air
Verdict: hot air
Operative phrase here: getting all the facts.
Rapt, the article holds a lot of appeal for rabble who are easily riled, but as a serious student of history, I am not fooled. It’s very one-sided indeed, from a person who sounds like he has an axe to grind against Protestantism. But, it still fails to provide solid evidence that Luther himself took part in murder—the best it does is read off a handful of acrimonious quotes, with no mention of where they came from, each of which could have been taken out of context. Yet there are no eyewitness accounts to his having taken part in murder, neither any reports of his commending anyone for having committed murder “at his behest.” Just a bunch of strong opinions that have been twisted around for someone else’s agendas. Hitler did the same thing. But whereas Hitler acted on his agendas of death, Luther did no such thing.
jth
Verdict: hot air
Operative phrase here: getting all the facts.
Rapt, the article holds a lot of appeal for rabble who are easily riled, but as a serious student of history, I am not fooled. It’s very one-sided indeed, from a person who sounds like he has an axe to grind against Protestantism. But, it still fails to provide solid evidence that Luther himself took part in murder—the best it does is read off a handful of acrimonious quotes, with no mention of where they came from, each of which could have been taken out of context. Yet there are no eyewitness accounts to his having taken part in murder, neither any reports of his commending anyone for having committed murder “at his behest.” Just a bunch of strong opinions that have been twisted around for someone else’s agendas. Hitler did the same thing. But whereas Hitler acted on his agendas of death, Luther did no such thing.
jth
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Still trying to pin the tail on the antichrist/man of sin?
Still trying to pin the tail on the antichrist/man of sin?
The man of sin indeed sits in the temple of God exalting his own word over God's. "He" is the entire body of unbelievers, including Luther, Calvin, and all thier followers who exalt their ungodly lies and practices.
Still trying to pin the tail on the antichrist/man of sin?
The man of sin indeed sits in the temple of God exalting his own word over God's. "He" is the entire body of unbelievers, including Luther, Calvin, and all thier followers who exalt their ungodly lies and practices.
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Anyone here deny the Trinity? Watch out!
Anyone here deny the Trinity? Watch out!
Well, I suppose if Jaltus was in power along with some who think the church should have the right to KILL those who deny the Trinity, all you oneness believers had better skip town, and not be so 'stupid' as to raise your heretic heads!
:shocked:
We have a murderer among us.
(oh, I suppose in order to drown out the screams of the condemned that he will eventually burn at the stake once he's elected, Jaltus will be playing his "Christian" rap at the eardrum-breaking level. That ought to do the trick.)
Fill ye up therefore the measure of your fathers.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth. How can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Anyone here deny the Trinity? Watch out!
Well, I suppose if Jaltus was in power along with some who think the church should have the right to KILL those who deny the Trinity, all you oneness believers had better skip town, and not be so 'stupid' as to raise your heretic heads!
:shocked: We have a murderer among us.
(oh, I suppose in order to drown out the screams of the condemned that he will eventually burn at the stake once he's elected, Jaltus will be playing his "Christian" rap at the eardrum-breaking level. That ought to do the trick.)
Fill ye up therefore the measure of your fathers.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth. How can ye escape the damnation of hell?
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Revelation717
New member
AMEN Rapt! How can ANYONE say murder is justified under any condition and be partakers at the Lord's table?
For shame, Jaltus, your comment was of none other than Satan himself and that you cannot deny. Every idle word you shall account for and justifying murder makes you just as guilty as one who commits. Blood is on your head and hands and it is not the blood of Jesus that cleanses sins but the blood of murder just as Cain was found guilty when his brother's blood cried out from the earth. That you will account for in that Great and Final Day!
REPENT!
1Tm:5:22: Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
For shame, Jaltus, your comment was of none other than Satan himself and that you cannot deny. Every idle word you shall account for and justifying murder makes you just as guilty as one who commits. Blood is on your head and hands and it is not the blood of Jesus that cleanses sins but the blood of murder just as Cain was found guilty when his brother's blood cried out from the earth. That you will account for in that Great and Final Day!
REPENT!
1Tm:5:22: Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
Huldrych
New member
Re: They that make them are like unto them
Re: They that make them are like unto them
C'mon, rapt, Is that the best you can do?
I simply refuse to buy into visceral propaganda, which is really all your ranting over the Luther issue amounts to. If you can't back up what you say, don't get angry when someone calls your bluff.
You remember those parts in Scripture where testing matters are encouraged? That's exactly what I'm doing. And if I find a hole in an outrageous claim, I'll point it out. If you can't handle that, well, that sounds like a character issue.
jth
Re: They that make them are like unto them
C'mon, rapt, Is that the best you can do?
I simply refuse to buy into visceral propaganda, which is really all your ranting over the Luther issue amounts to. If you can't back up what you say, don't get angry when someone calls your bluff.
You remember those parts in Scripture where testing matters are encouraged? That's exactly what I'm doing. And if I find a hole in an outrageous claim, I'll point it out. If you can't handle that, well, that sounds like a character issue.
jth
Thanks, Arminian, for this EXCELLENT expose` on Calvinism:
http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm
Jeremiah 17:5
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Jer 7:8
Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?
11 Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.
http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm
Jeremiah 17:5
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Jer 7:8
Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?
11 Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.
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bill betzler
New member
Dare I say that I'm non-trinitarian. You could have leaned something from Evangelion on this one.
The police on the east coast are looking for the common denominator for the sniper killings. Shall we suggest non-trinitarian.
<shakes his head>
My point, oh prognosticators and judges of myself, was that Servitus was tried according to the laws of the town and BANISHED! He was told that he would be killed upon returning, and the man BROKE THE LAW BY RETURNING!
Are you telling me that he was right to go against the law of the land? Try reading Romans 13!
By the way, rapt and Rev, who are you to question my salvation? Are you God? Do you stand in His place?
I have a lot more to say to rapt and his little sidekick, but I will hold it in for now.
My point, oh prognosticators and judges of myself, was that Servitus was tried according to the laws of the town and BANISHED! He was told that he would be killed upon returning, and the man BROKE THE LAW BY RETURNING!
Are you telling me that he was right to go against the law of the land? Try reading Romans 13!
By the way, rapt and Rev, who are you to question my salvation? Are you God? Do you stand in His place?
I have a lot more to say to rapt and his little sidekick, but I will hold it in for now.
Huldrych
New member
Subtraction and addition...
Subtraction and addition...
Thanks for bringing that to light, Jaltus.
And it's a classic example of what happens when you fail to look at all the facts. The details left out tend to gang up and leave teeth marks in your glutes.
And, while I have your attention (Solly, you might want to read this, too), I've done some more work into getting to the bottom of this "Unrevidiert" problem I came across with the Luther 1545 versions found online.
A Dr. Michael Bolsinger seems to be the source for a lot of the electronic texts (found at luther-bibel-1545.de, a few other sites, and used in Bible programs like the Sword Project and Elbiwin). Now, I discovered that his source document is the 1545 printed by Hans Lufft in Wittenberg. That is the exact version I have on my shelf.
If that is the case, then my question is, how can he honestly advertise his text as "unrevised," when it seems he has deliberately added a verse (1. John 5:7) not found in the original?
I sent him an email asking, politely, for an explanation for this. I'll let you guys know what sort of response I get.
He's also done some other changes as well, for example, In the original, Mt. 8:12, 22:13, and 25:30 leave out the "outmost darkness" found in Luther versions before and after the 1545. He revises them to conform with the other versions. This flat-out disqualifies the text he presents as "unrevised," from what I've gathered so far.
Please keep in mind that my big issue is integrity in scholarship. Whether or not 1 John 5:7 should belong in the Bible is another debate entirely. The main concern I have here is over transmitting, accurately, what was actually found in Luther's 1545.
jth
Subtraction and addition...
Thanks for bringing that to light, Jaltus.
And it's a classic example of what happens when you fail to look at all the facts. The details left out tend to gang up and leave teeth marks in your glutes.
And, while I have your attention (Solly, you might want to read this, too), I've done some more work into getting to the bottom of this "Unrevidiert" problem I came across with the Luther 1545 versions found online.
A Dr. Michael Bolsinger seems to be the source for a lot of the electronic texts (found at luther-bibel-1545.de, a few other sites, and used in Bible programs like the Sword Project and Elbiwin). Now, I discovered that his source document is the 1545 printed by Hans Lufft in Wittenberg. That is the exact version I have on my shelf.
If that is the case, then my question is, how can he honestly advertise his text as "unrevised," when it seems he has deliberately added a verse (1. John 5:7) not found in the original?
I sent him an email asking, politely, for an explanation for this. I'll let you guys know what sort of response I get.
He's also done some other changes as well, for example, In the original, Mt. 8:12, 22:13, and 25:30 leave out the "outmost darkness" found in Luther versions before and after the 1545. He revises them to conform with the other versions. This flat-out disqualifies the text he presents as "unrevised," from what I've gathered so far.
Please keep in mind that my big issue is integrity in scholarship. Whether or not 1 John 5:7 should belong in the Bible is another debate entirely. The main concern I have here is over transmitting, accurately, what was actually found in Luther's 1545.
jth
If Jaltus can "judge" that Calvin was "correct" to kill Servetus, then I can judge by his words whether he knows God or if he has murder in his heart. If I and others have not this right, then the bible is a lie. I'll let God be true, and every man that denies His Word and the rights He gives His church be a liar.
I continue to see hypocrits wresting Romans 13 to their own destruction, as they do also the other scriptures, just like Peter said they would.
If the laws of any land exalt themselves over the law of God, no Christian is under obligation to keep such laws! If the law of a land requires a Christian to MURDER someone, better to die than to disobey God.
Had the Germans of Nazi Germany been committed to Jesus Christ more than to Hitler and their own prejudice, they would not have incured the guilt of the MURDER of eight million innocent Jews.
CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE. NO MAN CAN SERVE TWO MASTERS. CEASAR IS NOT GOD!
I continue to see hypocrits wresting Romans 13 to their own destruction, as they do also the other scriptures, just like Peter said they would.
If the laws of any land exalt themselves over the law of God, no Christian is under obligation to keep such laws! If the law of a land requires a Christian to MURDER someone, better to die than to disobey God.
Had the Germans of Nazi Germany been committed to Jesus Christ more than to Hitler and their own prejudice, they would not have incured the guilt of the MURDER of eight million innocent Jews.
CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE. NO MAN CAN SERVE TWO MASTERS. CEASAR IS NOT GOD!
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