BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

[Z Man]

Proverbs 16:9 . . . . "A man's HEART plans his way, but the Lord directs his STEPS." Exactly. Sure. God gets involved but He doesn't decide what the man will do nor does this say that God knows that the man will do.

Man chooses evil, so God says, "You gonna be evil, I'll help you hang yourself!"

Man chooses good, so God says, "You gonna be good, I'll help you be the best!"

God can and does influence, but it's still man's choice and God doesn't know what that choice is till it's made known.

Rimi,

David didn't decide to take the census, then God come along and say, "good, you wanna sin, I'll punish you". We read the exact opposite in 2 Samuel 24. God ordained that David take the census, then he punished him for it.

 

[1Way]

Z Man
Please show us the scripture that makes your point, that the idea for the census was God's idea, and not David's.

Now wait a minuet. I’m supposed to believe God did NOT want the census to take place, therefore God made David take the census, and then punished him for doing God’s will.

Z Man, what can we say about such an idea, besides, it’s self refuting?

 

[Rimi]

Z, God was punishing David for putting his trust in his armies and himself. God helped exaggerate the evil of it by persuading David to do the census.

 

[Z Man]

Z Man
Please show us the scripture that makes your point, that the idea for the census was God's idea, and not David's.

I'm not saying the census was not David's idea. I'm just saying he wouldn't have taken it less God moved him to.

2 Samuel 24:1
Once again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he caused David to harm them by taking a census.

Now wait a minute. I’m supposed to believe God did NOT want the census to take place, therefore God made David take the census, and then punished him for doing God’s will.

Z Man, what can we say about such an idea, besides, it’s self refuting?

Uh, it's biblical. There's only two conclusions:

a) The Bible is contradictory and, as you put it, self-refuting

or

b) God has two wills

 

[Z Man]

Z, God was punishing David for putting his trust in his armies and himself.

Uh, wrong. God punished David simply for taking a census:

2 Samuel 24:10
But after he had taken the census, David's conscience began to bother him. And he said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly and shouldn't have taken the census. Please forgive me, LORD, for doing this foolish thing."

God helped exaggerate the evil of it by persuading David to do the census.

What?

 

[Rimi]

Z, why do you think David took a census?

 

[Delmar]

Uh, wrong. God punished David simply for taking a census:

2 Samuel 24:10
But after he had taken the census, David's conscience began to bother him. And he said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly and shouldn't have taken the census. Please forgive me, LORD, for doing this foolish thing."

What?

Zman do you infer from 2 Samuel 24 that census taking is always evil? Or do you agree with me that taking a census, in this case, was wrong for some other reason?

 

[Rimi]

2 Sam 24:1, "Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."

Uh, I thought we'd been talking about David sinning, and it turns out God wasn't dealing with him at all. Maybe it was because of any support given to Absolom? Maybe they didn't do the census as per Exodus 30:12? It doesn't say. But it does say that in 1 Chr 21:1 that satan incited David to this, "Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel." We also know that taking a census in and of itself was not evil, see Number 1:2-3, 26:1-2. We clearly need to study more. Even Z doesn't have all the answers.

 

[Z Man]

The point isn't whether or not taking a census was evil; the point is that in this case, it was wrong for David to do it, and yet, it was what God wanted him to do.

To Open Theists, this concept is inconceivable.

 

[godrulz]

The point isn't whether or not taking a census was evil; the point is that in this case, it was wrong for David to do it, and yet, it was what God wanted him to do.

To Open Theists, this concept is inconceivable.

This is not a problem for OT. I thought the issue was his motive and how he did it, not that God was telling him to do something wrong (contrary to His righteous character). We reject your wrong understanding of the passage, not the straightforward implications of the passage itself. God does not do evil nor tell His people to do moral evil. Righteous judgments of issues of motive and obedience are not 'evil'.

 

[Z Man]

This is not a problem for OT. I thought the issue was his motive and how he did it, not that God was telling him to do something wrong (contrary to His righteous character).

Godrulz,

You miss the point entirely. In this case, for David to take the census was wrong. God was not ignorant of this. And yet, God moved David to take it. The point is that God ordains everything, and we are still responsible.

The Open Theists claim that if God ordained everything, than He is responsible for commiting evil. But the Scriptures tell us otherwise! God DOES ordain everything, and yet, WE are still held responsible for our actions. God made David take the census, and David was still held responsible. David didn't not say, "Well God, you can't punish me for taking the census because you moved me to do it". On the contrary, David confessed that HE sinned before the Lord! And he did. Yet God made him do it.

God did cause David to take the census, but He did not cause David to sin. David was responsible for his own sin. God meant this for a greater good; David meant it for other, selfish, sinful purposes. This can be applied to everything that happens in life! God ordains everything, and His intent is of a good cause. The intent and motive of the individual involved in the ordained action may not be so great, and thus they sin. Though God ordained the very event, the person involved is still responsible for thier sins.

This is the Calvinistic viewpoint, yet Open Theists have wrongly accused the Calvinist for believing that for a person to say God ordains everything is to claim that He is responsible for our sins. That's just not so! No Calvinist believes that. This text in 2 Sam. 24 thus refutes the strawmen built by Open Theists that accuses Calvinists of blasphemy.

 

[Delmar]

Ok, great. But it still remains that God made David take the census. And yet, David was responsible. Think about it; this very notion destroys the open view. The open view declares that God cannot impose upon man's free will, or that God knows the future. But you just stated otherwise in your above quote! This passage is just one example of many that show God holding men responsible for things He had ordained long before.

Deardelmar, earlier you said:

"to say that every thing that happens is caused by God, then say that God is not responsible for the things he caused makes no sense."​

Will you now conclude that yes, it does make sense to say that God ordains everything and we are still responsible at the same time?

[/i]

No I do not! Nor I do not agree that 2 Sam 24 presents such an example.

 

[Rimi]

Z, you're saying God deliberately caused David to sin, that he had no choice? So, you're saying God is an abettor to sin?

 

[Rimi]

Z, WHY is taking a census evil?

 

[Delmar]

Godrulz,

You miss the point entirely. In this case, for David to take the census was wrong. God was not ignorant of this. And yet, God moved David to take it. The point is that God ordains everything, and we are still responsible.

The Open Theists claim that if God ordained everything, than He is responsible for commiting evil. But the Scriptures tell us otherwise! God DOES ordain everything, and yet, WE are still held responsible for our actions. God made David take the census, and David was still held responsible. David didn't not say, "Well God, you can't punish me for taking the census because you moved me to do it". On the contrary, David confessed that HE sinned before the Lord! And he did. Yet God made him do it.

God did cause David to take the census, but He did not cause David to sin. David was responsible for his own sin. God meant this for a greater good; David meant it for other, selfish, sinful purposes. This can be applied to everything that happens in life! God ordains everything, and His intent is of a good cause. The intent and motive of the individual involved in the ordained action may not be so great, and thus they sin. Though God ordained the very event, the person involved is still responsible for thier sins.

This is the Calvinistic viewpoint, yet Open Theists have wrongly accused the Calvinist for believing that for a person to say God ordains everything is to claim that He is responsible for our sins. That's just not so! No Calvinist believes that. This text in 2 Sam. 24 thus refutes the strawmen built by Open Theists that accuses Calvinists of blasphemy.

Zman you are with out a doubt the biggest bone head I have witnessed! Taking the census was not the sin it was merely a symptom of David's sin! You refuse to see the forest because all those trees are in the way!

 

[Rimi]

Zman you are with out a doubt the biggest bone head I have witnessed! Taking the census was not the sin it was merely a symptom of David's sin! You refuse to see the forest because all those trees are in the way!

:rotfl: "bonehead" :rotfl: Ah, that's rich.

 

[Z Man]

Will you now conclude that yes, it does make sense to say that God ordains everything and we are still responsible at the same time?

No I do not! Nor I do not agree that 2 Sam 24 presents such an example.

So let me get this straight. Are you saying that 2 Sam 24 does NOT say that God moved David to take the census, then punish him for it?

 

[Z Man]

Z, you're saying God deliberately caused David to sin, that he had no choice?

Can you read?

Originally posted by Z Man​

God did cause David to take the census, but He did not cause David to sin. David was responsible for his own sin.​

So, you're saying God is an abettor to sin?

No. Read above, if you can read at all...

 

[Z Man]

Z, WHY is taking a census evil?

Zman you are with out a doubt the biggest bone head I have witnessed! Taking the census was not the sin it was merely a symptom of David's sin! You refuse to see the forest because all those trees are in the way!

Guys, let's focus here. You call me a bonehead, but you can't get off the subject of whether taking a census was evil or not. That's not the point of this passage from 2 Sam. 24. Clearly, in David's case, taking the census was wrong. The action of taking a census in and of itself may not be a sin, but in David's case, he sinned in taking a census. His intentions and motives were his sin. But it was manifested through taking the census. Just like it may not be a sin to eat, but gluttony is a sin. And just as it is impossible to be guilty of gluttony without eating anything, so it was impossible for David to be guilty of his sin and punished for it if he hadn't of taken the census.

This is elementary Bible study fellas. Taking the census was wrong:

2 Samuel 24:2-3
So the king said to Joab, the commander of his army, "Take a census of all the people in the land – from Dan in the north to Beersheba in the south – so that I may know how many people there are." But Joab replied to the king, "May the LORD your God let you live until there are a hundred times as many people in your kingdom as there are now! But why do you want to do this?"

Joab knows that to take the census was wrong. He cautioned David against it - an obvious sign that taking the census was sinful.

2 Samuel 24:10
But after he had taken the census, David's conscience began to bother him. And he said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly and shouldn't have taken the census. Please forgive me, LORD, for doing this foolish thing."

And here we see that David feels guilty and admits that taking the census was sinful of him. So all this fuss about whether taking the census was wrong or not is silly. It's very clear that it was wrong for David to take it. Joab cautioned him against it, and David feels remorse for doing it afterwards.

But the overall point - the pinnacle of this whole discussion that I am trying to show to you blind bats - is that God ordained this whole event! God moved David to take the census! It was God's will that David do the very thing that God later punished him for. There is no other conclusion to come to (unless you believe the Bible is bologna to begin with) other than it is NOT impossible for us to be held responsible for something God ordained. This story of David taking the census that God willed him to take, then holding him responsible for it later, is a perfect example!

 

[Rimi]

Zdork, obviously I can read as I've managed to wade thru your drivel this far. Unfortunately, you make no sense and and probably starting to realize that. You ultimately believe, then, that God needs evil to accomplish His ends/needs.

Per you:

God ordains little babies to be raped.

God ordains women to be raped.

God ordains the taking advantage of the elderly.

God ordains the murder of the innocent.

Stop me if I'm mistaken here.

God ordains the myriad adulteries.

God ordains prostitution.

God ordains theft.

Z, you really are a bonehead.