ECT COMMENTS ON PROTESTANTS AS "SEPARATED BRETHREN"

[Cruciform]

What about the Catholic acceptance of some non-Catholics as "separated brothers" in Christ? Musterion closed his thread before I could post my reply---perhaps he didn't want to see my answer. Here's my response to his final post to me:

This is a bald faced papist lie and you know it.

Post your proof.

First, what does "believe in Jesus Christ" even mean?

Good question. One's belief in Christ would need to correspond to what the Christian Church has taught about Him for the past two millennia as embodied in her historically orthodox doctrinal creeds and confessions (for example, the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds). To depart from these is to depart from the Christian faith itself.

Second, I and others here reject all need for any water rite, so we are not allowed to be considered your brothers.

Yes, if you reject Baptism as a Christian rite or ordinance, then you have once again departed from the historic and orthodox Christian faith. However, there is more than one form of "baptism," so there may yet be hope for you.

Even most evangelicals - who immerse - are disallowed because they don't sprinkle.

Nonsense, since the Catholic Church accepts Baptism by immersion, pouring, or sprinkling.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[musterion]

What about the Catholic acceptance of some non-Catholics as "separated brothers" in Christ? Musterion closed his thread before I could post my reply---perhaps he didn't want to see my answer. Here's my response to his final post to me:



Post your proof.

I don't have to -- the burden of proof is on you to show how people with contradictory gospels can be brothers in Christ, regardless of whether they agree on who He is. I have asked you about this several times but I have yet to see you reply to it. Do so now, please.

Good question. One's belief in Christ would need to correspond to what the Christian Church has taught about Him for the past two millennia as embodied in her historically orthodox doctrinal creeds and confessions (for example, the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds). To depart from these is to depart from the Christian faith itself.

The same point stands: people can believe identically about who Christ is but if they do not agree on WHAT He did or HOW we're to avail ourselves to it, then one of them is lost, or both are, but they can't BOTH be saved, thus can't be brothers. That is the case here. Deal with that issue now, please.

Yes, if you reject Baptism as a Christian rite or ordinance, then you have once again departed from the historic and orthodox Christian faith. However, there is more than one form of "baptism," so there may yet be hope for you.

That is a lie, or you are showing utter stupidity. There is no such thing as water baptism without water, and your church says salvation is impossible if one refuses to submit to some form of water baptism. And even if alien immersion is accepted, it still leave the biggest question unanswered - the Gospel.

Nonsense, since the Catholic Church accepts Baptism by immersion, pouring, or sprinkling.

This still leaves the Gospel question unaddressed. Please do so.

 

[oatmeal]

What about the Catholic acceptance of some non-Catholics as "separated brothers" in Christ? Musterion closed his thread before I could post my reply---perhaps he didn't want to see my answer. Here's my response to his final post to me:



Post your proof.


Good question. One's belief in Christ would need to correspond to what the Christian Church has taught about Him for the past two millennia as embodied in her historically orthodox doctrinal creeds and confessions (for example, the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds). To depart from these is to depart from the Christian faith itself.


Yes, if you reject Baptism as a Christian rite or ordinance, then you have once again departed from the historic and orthodox Christian faith. However, there is more than one form of "baptism," so there may yet be hope for you.


Nonsense, since the Catholic Church accepts Baptism by immersion, pouring, or sprinkling.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Good question. One's belief in Christ would need to correspond to what the Christian Church has taught about Him for the past two millennia as embodied in her historically orthodox doctrinal creeds and confessions (for example, the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds). To depart from these is to depart from the Christian faith itself.

Good question indeed, however, one that at best, remains not answered.

At least one specific thing that actually answers the question would have been appropriate

How about John 10:10

or John 14:6 or Acts 3:15-16

or Acts 2:22-36

There are plenty of passages that would have, could have taught your reader something about Jesus Christ,

 

[Cruciform]

I don't have to...

On the contrary. You publicly claim in this post that I have supposedly lied. Thus, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate your claim. Again: Post your proof.

...people can believe identically about who Christ is but if they do not agree on WHAT He did or HOW we're to avail ourselves to it, then one of them is lost, or both are, but they can't BOTH be saved, thus can't be brothers. That is the case here. Deal with that issue now, please.

Depends on what you intend by your use of the term "the Gospel." I have addressed just that question here.

That is a lie, or you are showing utter stupidity. There is no such thing as water baptism without water...

Merely a Straw Man Fallacy on your part, since I have never claimed that there can be "water baptism without water." You should actually know what you're talking about before presuming to accusing someone of lying.

...and your church says salvation is impossible if one refuses to submit to some form of water baptism.

Not so. You should stick with what you know (whatever that is), and cease trying to declare what the Catholic Church supposedly teaches.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

Good question indeed, however, one that at best, remains not answered.

See Post #4 above.

 

[musterion]

<b>

THE GOSPEL MESSAGE: A Catholic Summary

This can be summarized in six basic steps, known as the Kerygma*:

1. We are made in God's image and likeness, meant for a deep loving relationship with Him (Gen. 1:27; Jn. 17:3; 1 Jn. 5:20).

2. Due to sin, we have broken this friendship with God (Rom. 5:19; 6:23).

3. Jesus Christ, God's divine Son, became man, died on the cross and rose from the dead for our Redemption (1 Cor. 15:3-8; Phil. 2:7-10).

4. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and through Jesus our relationship with God is restored (Ac. 15:11; Eph. 2:8; Phil. 3:9).

5. Through the one historic Catholic Church which Jesus himself established while on earth, we have access to saving grace by Baptism, and are spiritually nourished by the Eucharist and other sacraments (Mt. 16:18-19; 28:16-20; Jn. 6:53-56; Ac. 2:38; 1 Tim. 3:15).

6. Through these sacraments, the Holy Spirit changes us, his grace perfects us, and He fulfills our every godly desire, ultimately reaching eternal beatitude in heaven (Mt. 5:48)</b>​

This is a false gospel that can't save any who believe it and will damn any who preach it, and still proves my point: this is not the Gospel believed by Bible only believers. One of them is wrong, hence Catholics and Bible only believers cannot possibly be brothers in Christ, which I have correctly contended all along.
​

 

[musterion]

Merely a Straw Man Fallacy on your part, since I have never claimed that there can be "water baptism without water." You should actually know what you're talking about before presuming to accusing someone of lying.

Not so. You should stick with what you know (whatever that is), and cease trying to declare what the Catholic Church supposedly teaches.

Your church accepts no one for conversion or membership without their having submitted to some approved form of water baptism, as the PDF I posted from the archdiocese of Baltimore shows. In fact, some who DO water baptize but just have the wrong hocus-pocus "formula" are rejected. That your church requires the work of some water baptism is a fact. You are a pathetic liar to deny it.

You also said there are "another form of baptism" for people like me who reject water baptism. That, too, is a lie. It's either be baptized in or with H2o and with the correct mumbo-jumbo "formula," or hit the road.

Therefore, people like me who reject your sacramental works gospel AND all water baptisms CANNOT be accepted by you as brothers. Your church won't, so you have no authority to do so.

 

[Dona Bate]

Your church accepts no one for conversion or membership without their having submitted to some approved form of water baptism, as the PDF I posted from the archdiocese of Baltimore shows. In fact, some who DO water baptize but just have the wrong hocus-pocus "formula" are rejected. That your church requires the work of some water baptism is a fact. You are a pathetic liar to deny it.

You also said there are "another form of baptism" for people like me who reject water baptism. That, too, is a lie. It's either be baptized in or with H2o and with the correct mumbo-jumbo "formula," or hit the road.

Therefore, people like me who reject your sacramental works gospel AND all water baptisms CANNOT be accepted by you as brothers. Your church won't, so you have no authority to do so.

The following actual Catholic Church teachings completely refutes mustorian's anti Catholic version of what she teaches...

CCC 1258*The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

CCC 2473*Martyrdom*is the supreme witness given to the truth of the faith: it means bearing witness even unto death. The martyr bears witness to Christ who died and rose, to whom he is united by charity. He bears witness to the truth of the faith and of Christian doctrine. He endures death through an act of fortitude. “Let me become the food of the beasts, through whom it will be given me to reach God. (St. Ignatius of Antioch,*Ad Rom.*4, 1: SCh 10, 110.)

CCC 1259*For*catechumens*who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

CCC 1249*Catechumens “are already joined to the Church, they are already of the household of Christ, and are quite frequently already living a life of faith, hope, and charity.” (AG*14 § 5.)
*“With love and solicitude mother Church already embraces them as her own.” (LG*14 § 3; cf. CIC, cann. 206; 788 § 3.)

Having been shown the truth of what the Catholic Church actually teaches on baptism will mustorian admit that he was woefully wrong and apologise to Cruciform for calling him a pathetic liar? Or will he continue to deny Catholic Church teachings on baptism like one of the pathetic liars that he himself appears to despise?

:idunno:

God Bless!

 

[Cruciform]

This is a false gospel that can't save any who believe it and will damn any who preach it...

Post your proof.

...this is not the Gospel believed by Bible only believers.

It is, however, the Gospel in its fullness as believed and taught by Christ's one historic Church from the beginning. Yet the Church also teaches that even those who, in their ignorance, fail to comprehend and affirm all elements of the Gospel perfectly may nevertheless be saved in the end. God is merciful, and may save whom he wills.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

Your church accepts no one for conversion or membership without their having submitted to some approved form of water baptism...

See Post #8 above.

 

[Sealeaf]

Musterion, What exactly is your problem with Baptism? It is an ancient Jewish rite of physical cleansing to symbolize spiritual cleansing. It is also the rite by which a non Jew becomes a Jew. The extension of this to become the Christian rite of cleansing and entry into the sect of Christ seems a clear and normal progression.

The Catholic form calls on God as a trinity, do you object to that?

The the Catholic form of baptism requires that the candidate formally reject Satan and all his works. Do you object to that?

Or are you just unwilling to adhere to a form written by someone other than your self?

 

[PhilipJames]

God is merciful, and may save whom he wills.

Amen!