Could God forgive without crucifixion?

Predi

New member
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
people do not wish to be forgiven...they love darkness rather than light.

Jesus death for me on my behalf totally convinces me that He is willing to forgive and that He does love me and desires my fellowship,
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

God told Adam that if he disobeyed regarding a certain tree he would die twice. Adam did disobey and in doing so he relinquished his life and his dominion to the devil who enticed Eve and deceived her. Adam was not deceived, he simply disobeyed God by his choice.

Because of Adam, death was appointed to all people. But each person only has to die once and then be judged with regard to the second death.

Jesus died to pay for the second death for those who accept his sacrifice of his life. Since Jesus had not sinned he was not subject to the second death and became the propitiation for the salvation of all who avail themselves of his love and sacrifice.

God's sentence of the second death had to be satisfied and Jesus has done so on our behalf. We can have eternal life instead of eternal death.

But it is our life and we must surrender it to Christ to live.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?
If you are using the court metaphor, Christ's death was not a legal payment for our sins.
It was the bar exam that Jesus passed in order to become our public defender.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

For God's perfect will to be done, His son had to be the propitiation of sin to fulfill God's Law. God cannot be in the presence of sin and the only way to cleanse the world from sin is through His Son Jesus Christ. Now, because of Christ Jesus we are holy and blameless in God's eyes.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus?

this is a good question
-a tough question
-I can only back into it
-Jesus wouldn't have suffered and died if it wasn't necessary
-somehow justice demands it
-when you make a mess, someone must clean it up
-your mother would often clean up your messes because she loved you so much
-that is the best I can do
-it is good enough for me
-sometimes we just have to accept the reality when we can't find a satisfactory explanation
 

KingdomRose

New member
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

God really does forgive. He is like we might imagine a lion ready to pounce on "forgiveness." He is that eager to forgive. He knows we are not responsible for Adam's original sin of disobedience. We are all affected because of DNA....Adam couldn't make perfect, sinless children.

There has been something in the way of forgiveness, however, and it is because Jehovah is supremely JUST, and follows His own rules. One rule is: "An eye for an eye, tooth for tooth." There has to be a balancing out of an event or situation....a equal situation on the other side of the scales. We have Adam, formerly a perfect human, on one side of the scales, with the bed of the scales all the way down. There had to be a counter-balancing action on the other side, something that matched Adam's mankind-affecting action. Therefore, another perfect human had to balance it out, staying obedient, to counteract Adam's disobedience. Paul explained it this way:

"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous." (Romans 5:19, NASB)

Then it simply remains for each of us to accept what Jesus did, and conform to his teachings.

John 3:16; I Peter 2:21
 

KingdomRose

New member
Newsflash. The Lord Jesus Christ settled the sin issue. It is "square" in justice terms. Yet the vast majority of people go to hell.

You don't know that. Or do you have some avenue of knowledge that none of the rest of us have? Only God knows who will be destroyed. The operative word, too, is destroyed, not sitting in a fire.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
. God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

Really ?
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
God cannot stand sin. A blood sacrifice was needed. The blood of spotless animal sacrifices was the spilling of innocent blood for the sins of the Israelites. However, the Israelites lost the significance and continued to sin. Jesus came to be the ultimate innocent blood sacrifice for all. Those who accept Jesus will be saved. No one can stand before God without their sins being cleansed by Jesus' blood.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).

That is the way it is!
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Is not Love itself forgiving?

Is not Love itself forgiving?

I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

This is often used as an 'illustration', within some kind of 'vicarious atonement' model, however I don't think it really satisfies being the reason that God could forgive anyone, since its assuming a 'vicarious atonement' is 'necessary' as an assumption/presupposition, but this is all it is. Other atonement models exist, and we of more liberal theological horizons, could even question the validity of 'blood atonement' on various grounds, although certain symbolic or allegorical interpretations can be associated with 'blood'.

It also still holds that by the principle of 'self-responsibility', one is responsible to make atonement for his own sins by reparation/repentance, and if possible restitution (if he is able). Since a sinner suffers for his own sins, he is therefore also responsible for his own salvation, by choosing such. Another person cannot fully or wholly 'pay the price' or 'atone' for the sins of another, not while that one has any degree of 'responsibility' for his own sins and the ability to make amends or reform his ways. - and these are just a few points that challenge a 'vicarious atonement' concept.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

But we're back to the 'belief' that some one has to suffer for another sins. Why? Back to the principle of self-responsibility,....we all suffer for our own sins, and are also responsible for our own salvation (returning to God and his laws....returning to righteousness) by our own repentance. No one can repent for us! So, you see, 'vicarious atonement' has some problems. We also discuss the law of karma here :)

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

Surely, and did you notice in the OT, a 'blood-sacrifice' was not ALWAYS needed to make an atonement for sin. Prayer, repentance, grain/flour offerings, money, and other tokens were accepted and availed to make 'atonement' back in those days. Also in the NT, Jesus forgave sins and commanded his disciples to forgive sins. Yep, he authorizes his disiples to forgive sins, heal the sick, cast out evil spirits, etc. This issue of 'forgiveness' is a wonderful subject in itself. Furthermore, we cant even enjoy forgiveness (a condition of free intercourse/fellowship) with God if we do NOT forgive our brother,....so forgiveness in some ways is 'conditional' on certain levels.

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

Since God is a Good and Loving Father, of course he can forgive sins just out of his own loving, merciful nature and will. Why would LOVE not forgive, if one qualified to receive that forgiveness by doing what is proper to receive it? It then becomes a question of where this idea/concept/belief of 'animal slaughter' or even 'human sacrifice' is necessary to effect an 'atonement'? Is such a theology rational or logical? That's something you have to decide for yourself, by the 'light' of God within your own soul, teaching you divine wisdom and reason. Good questions,...some don't question, so don't grow, evolve or progress along the path, they just have a rigid sterile belief-system, a 'theoritical' salvation, merely 'conceptual'. Some concepts may be better than others, but they are just 'concepts',....how useful they are is another question.
 
Last edited:

Predi

New member
(...) we of more liberal theological horizons, could even question the validity of 'blood atonement' on various grounds

We could. And the Bible never explicitly says that blood "helps" God to forgive.

We also discuss the law of karma here :)

I'm reading it, interesting! A little similar subject to the law of attraction!

Surely, and did you notice in the OT, a 'blood-sacrifice' was not ALWAYS needed to make an atonement for sin.

I noticed that blood was only a valid sacrifice for unintentional sin. Realizing it was a milestone in my understanding of the Bible.

Since God is a Good and Loving Father, of course he can forgive sins just out of his own loving, merciful nature and will. Why would LOVE not forgive, if one qualified to receive that forgiveness by doing what is proper to receive it?

"Why would love not forgive???" - period. Either forgiveness is free or not. I believe free equals unconditional.

It then becomes a question of where this idea/concept/belief of 'animal slaughter' or even 'human sacrifice' is necessary to effect an 'atonement'?

In my opinion animal sacrifice was made up by pagan religions, and Mosaic law was necessary not for God, but for people, who at the time would not believe God might forgive "just like that." Most of people still can't believe it today... But there are hints about this in the Bible, with the primary one of Hebrews 10:8 quoting Psalm 40:6.

Is such a theology rational or logical?

I think this question has a holy tradition of not being asked in churches :)

That's something you have to decide for yourself, by the 'light' of God within your own soul

I know there are questions that God answers only individually... but I hope it should be possible to clearly explain such a major theological issue should be possible to explain clearly :)

Thank you for your input!
 
Top