Theology Club: Departure cannot possibly mean the removal of the church

[Danoh]

John Nelson Darby was a Dispy but he was not a Mid acts dispy. Certainly he was not the father of it.

He is however the modern day father of the pre-trib rapture, it did not originate with him, it originated with the Irvingites. Having failed to get his doctrine past the British theologians Darby took it to America where it took off like a rocket.

He did a sleight of hand.

He took the meaning of "departure" in 2nd Thess. and changed it from rebellion which had been the unanimously accepted meaning and gave it a new meaning "departure" as in "removal" i.e. the removal of the church.

This makes IMPOSSIBLE grammar. For Paul now says this

"Brethren concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our meeting Him in the clouds I beseech you etc....

....that day cannot come unless first there has come a departure...."

So Paul according to Darby is saying

Brethren...concerning the rapture, that day cannot come until first there has come a rapture.

See how impossible that is?

Exactly.

It is 2 Thesslonians 1 that is about the Pre-Trib Rapture, not chapter 2.

Chapter 2 follows or builds on chapter 1 by going into events that will take place AFTER the Rapture.

Chapter 2's events will be years AFTER the Rapture, not to mention an additional, Prophetic gap, in between!

Note how much in chapter 2 is Trib info he assumes they had known the Timeline of (though, obviously from his having taught it to them at a previous time).

The chapter smacks of John chapter 5 through and through, etc.

Be warned, though; I subscribe to a Mid-Acts Hermenuetic that, while differing in key areas from that of others on here, still holds to many of their similarities.

Here is a difference I hold to - 2 Thess. 2:7's "mystery of iniquity" refers to what mystery?

To the mystery of iniquity restrained.

 

[intojoy]

I'm proud of what I've done here. See ya spots

 

[whitestone]

Exactly.

It is 2 Thesslonians 1 that is about the Pre-Trib Rapture, not chapter 2.

Chapter 2 follows or builds on chapter 1 by going into events that will take place AFTER the Rapture.

Chapter 2's events will be years AFTER the Rapture, not to mention an additional, Prophetic gap, in between!

Note how much in chapter 2 is Trib info he assumes they had known the Timeline of (though, obviously from his having taught it to them at a previous time).

The chapter smacks of John chapter 5 through and through, etc.

Be warned, though; I subscribe to a Mid-Acts Hermenuetic that, while differing in key areas from that of others on here, still holds to many of their similarities.

Here is a difference I hold to - 2 Thess. 2:7's "mystery of iniquity" refers to what mystery?

To the mystery of iniquity restrained.

plurality,the wrath is only poured out on those who worship the image. The four winds are restrained until those who are sealed,are sealed with the mark of God.

The Wrath cannot come unless there is an image to be worshiped. The image cannot come unless the two horned beast has suggested that they make an image to the beast. The two horned beast cannot come until after the seven headed beast. There is no woman riding the four beast of Daniel.

You worded your reference to the restraint plural was that by chance?

 

[Danoh]

plurality,the wrath is only poured out on those who worship the image. The four winds are restrained until those who are sealed,are sealed with the mark of God.

The Wrath cannot come unless there is an image to be worshiped. The image cannot come unless the two horned beast has suggested that they make an image to the beast. The two horned beast cannot come until after the seven headed beast. There is no woman riding the four beast of Daniel.

You worded your reference to the restraint plural was that by chance?

I'm not sure I understand what you meant by "You worded your reference to the restraint plural..."

 

[Totton Linnet]

lol,I suppose at times I word things post trib,premill. ,,I notice many say "what?,explain that,,ect" when I do. I wondered about how this thread would go when I first saw it and who else was post,historic ect if any. But it is good to see it going civil so far,it proves dispys will discuss touchy matters among themselves with respect.

Ive said in the past,or ask how others arrange these verses,,,

1 Corinthians 15:23-26 KJV ,, Matthew 23:39 KJV ,,, and John 5:43 KJV ,,

In John 5:43 Jesus seems to be telling them "well since you don't believe I am the Messiah,then you are going to keep looking for one to come, so your going to believe the the man of sin is me when he comes".

I suppose in most eschatology this is true,everybody's either checked things off the list as fulfilled or their looking at the list and waiting for it to be fulfilled. So the Jews not having the Messiah part checked off as fulfilled in Jesus simply will recognize the man of sin as the king,Messiah ect. when he comes.

So as it seems when he does come he will then restore the kingdom the way they thought it was suppose to happen when they sang that to Jesus back then. Jesus instead went into the temple and told them that not one stone would be left on the other,lol,, it makes you wonder how many who sang "blessed is he that..." changed their mind about Jesus as fulfilling this and then thought he wasn't who he said he was when he didn't do what they thought he was suppose to.

Even among many Christian's they see these things as if checked off the list as fulfilled so there is nothing in the future to "watch for" except for the return of Christ and so when the man of sin comes then they will assume that he is Christ,that is he will mimic the things they think he will do so they'll believe he is the Christ.

In Paul's comment he says "in it's own order",,, so it seems Paul is saying "thing 1 will happen,then thing 2,then ect." and that thing 3,2 ect cant happen before thing 1. ,,,lol

That's why I'm so curious about how to look at those things Jesus said compared to Paul,Peter,John ect.

So If Jesus said they wont see him until they say to him that he is the Christ,and he also said that they were going to receive the one who comes in his own name,which one will they do first?

If they turn and see that he is the Christ, then after they confess him as Christ they follow the man of sin can they return to Christ? If they cannot return then will they all be saved?

To me it seems that they fall first,then they turn to Christ. So to me I see that they say let us make an image to the beast that was and was not yet is(create another state of Israel),then they build a temple(don't need to but they don't see that) then they await that promised Messiah(but another comes instead,M.O.S.),then they worship him as God on earth and to them the judgement begins(in their minds).

So there then are all those disbelievers(real Christians who wont worship the image or take his mark) and their false Messiah has them bring those who wont fall down and worship him as God(Christians) and he kills them/has them killed Revelation 13:15 KJV .

Now if we consider that happening, then those who are even in our own family will think that if they don't tell him(MOS,who they think is God) where you are hiding ,then to them the only chance we will have is for them to help us/turn us in ect. and they will think that they are doing Gods service in doing so.

But what is holding all this back from coming? Can the rapture occur before the image is set up and those who will be killed for not worshiping it are killed? Can the first Resurrection take place before all of those who will be killed for Jesus names sake Matthew 24:9 KJV ,have been killed for their testimony?

Antichrist is himself the image...he is not the beast, he is the image of the beast, he is man/devil.

He is the head of the beast that had what seemed a mortal wound but who liveth, he is the abomination which maketh desolate.

What prevents him from coming?....the lack of a temple, there is no seat for him to sit down and declare that he is God.

When a prophet arises in Israel foretelling the messiah, Everyone will believe him, he will do signs and wonders. As soon as we see him we may start looking for Antichrist....he is not the messiah being proclaimed by the false prophet, he is world ruler.

The Jews will return home, they will start to build the temple, Antichrist will let them, it is what he is waiting for. As soon as the temple is built he will renege on Israel and invade.


While he is waiting he will be crushing all religion, everything called god or that is worshipped as god.

That is the great tribulation.

 

[intojoy]

Antichrist is himself the image...he is not the beast, he is the image of the beast, he is man/devil.



He is the head of the beast that had what seemed a mortal wound but who liveth, he is the abomination which maketh desolate.



What prevents him from coming?....the lack of a temple, there is no seat for him to sit down and declare that he is God.



When a prophet arises in Israel foretelling the messiah, Everyone will believe him, he will do signs and wonders. As soon as we see him we may start looking for Antichrist....he is not the messiah being proclaimed by the false prophet, he is world ruler.



The Jews will return home, they will start to build the temple, Antichrist will let them, it is what he is waiting for. As soon as the temple is built he will renege on Israel and invade.





While he is waiting he will be crushing all religion, everything called god or that is worshipped as god.



That is the great tribulation.

Yeah um stick to evangelism snottin

 

[Danoh]

Matthew 24:

11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

2 Thessalonians 2:

3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6. And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

What was it that Paul had told them back when he’d yet been with them?

That in the midst of Israel’s rebellion from Moses that had them headed towards Daniel’s 70th week, the Lord had instead temporarily turned from Israel in His wrath; interrupting their having been headed towards Daniel’s 70th week, that He might unfold a Mystery Body that God was now forming and that they could be a part of by believing Paul’s Mystery Gospel.

The mystery of iniquity (lawlessness) was already at work – Israel’s departure from Moses was already under way, 1 Thess. 2:

15. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

2 Thess. 2:

7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Only, the Mystery of this New Man who was holding back said departure from Moses from what it will culminate in – the appearing of the man of sin in his time and with that, the return of the Lord in His wrath – was standing in the way of things culminating in that until this One New Man is taken out of the way.

1 Thess. 2:

16. Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

2 Thess. 2:

13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Again, who is this he that is standing in the way of that until he is taken out of the way?

The one new man of Romans 11:

25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[whitestone]

Matthew 24:

11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

2 Thessalonians 2:

3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6. And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

What was it that Paul had told them back when he’d yet been with them?

That in the midst of Israel’s rebellion from Moses that had them headed towards Daniel’s 70th week, the Lord had instead temporarily turned from Israel in His wrath; interrupting their having been headed towards Daniel’s 70th week, that He might unfold a Mystery Body that God was now forming and that they could be a part of by believing Paul’s Mystery Gospel.

The mystery of iniquity (lawlessness) was already at work – Israel’s departure from Moses was already under way, 1 Thess. 2:

15. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

2 Thess. 2:

7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Only, the Mystery of this New Man who was holding back said departure from Moses from what it will culminate in – the appearing of the man of sin in his time and with that, the return of the Lord in His wrath – was standing in the way of things culminating in that until this One New Man is taken out of the way.

1 Thess. 2:

16. Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

2 Thess. 2:

13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Again, who is this he that is standing in the way of that until he is taken out of the way?

The one new man of Romans 11:

25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

lol,it's odd the longer I follow along on the forms,articles ect. on the www(I have since the late 80's) how there are so many differences in opinion verses agreement among the many Christians in understanding.

I have to admit at first I had no idea if I was this or that in regards to the multitude of names to be called or refer to our own selves by when encountering the others I would meet in the forums.

Once an old member from here on TOL(but in another place on the web) said "if you don't mind me asking,Just what are you,where do you go to church?". At the time I didn't know what to say,I didn't know what he meant. I remember once I was called "a stinking dispy",lol so I reported them to the mods for name calling,then I looked it up to see what it meant.

There was a lot of words that I had never heard, amill.,pre.mill,dispy,preterit,pre/post trib. ect. ,,,but it was like an explosion of name calling that seemed to take off in the beginning of the www. I know now though that it's really just an elaborate system of placing our own selves into our perspective boxes as to our understanding of eschatology and the positions we hold based on this.

It's odd though to me at times to find others who if I sit back and examine their opinions of certain matters and the questions they ask their own selves that they are asking themselves the same things as mine own self.

There is something I think in or around the things you are asking in your post that seems to draw you to them like an itch or something. I say this because the very scriptures you give have drawn my attention for twenty or more years now,lol.

I suppose it's greedy on my part to not just pour my guts out with what I think about it but suffer me if you will and give me your opinion first on something.

I will tell you why,I am curious If you will see the same thing I do or if You will see something different(testing my own self,lol),,,who knows though maybe we will see it the same or maybe what one of us see something in addition to the other. Either way though I will tell you what I thought about what hinders and why I think it, and it I think will be no loss even if I am incorrect,it will be a fork in the road ruled out.

I'm curious what you will see though,,look at the same verse 2thess.2:7,,,last word #1096,,,, http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2.htm

 

[Totton Linnet]

Matthew 24:

11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

2 Thessalonians 2:

3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6. And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

What was it that Paul had told them back when he’d yet been with them?

That in the midst of Israel’s rebellion from Moses that had them headed towards Daniel’s 70th week, the Lord had instead temporarily turned from Israel in His wrath; interrupting their having been headed towards Daniel’s 70th week, that He might unfold a Mystery Body that God was now forming and that they could be a part of by believing Paul’s Mystery Gospel.

The mystery of iniquity (lawlessness) was already at work – Israel’s departure from Moses was already under way, 1 Thess. 2:

15. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

2 Thess. 2:

7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Only, the Mystery of this New Man who was holding back said departure from Moses from what it will culminate in – the appearing of the man of sin in his time and with that, the return of the Lord in His wrath – was standing in the way of things culminating in that until this One New Man is taken out of the way.

1 Thess. 2:

16. Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

2 Thess. 2:

13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Again, who is this he that is standing in the way of that until he is taken out of the way?

The one new man of Romans 11:

25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

It's too clunky, you's saying it is the church who lets but Paul is addressing the church. Would he have said to the church if it was the church which letteth "he that letteth will let until he be taken out of the way"

 

[Danoh]

It's too clunky, you's saying it is the church who lets but Paul is addressing the church. Would he have said to the church if it was the church which letteth "he that letteth will let until he be taken out of the way"

Yeah, I kinda felt that way about it myself.

Where's Tam, when I need her; she's so good at restructuring my sentence structures.

As for the other, Paul just as often uses 2nd and 3rd person as 1st when speaking to and or about the 2nd.

Haven't seen you around, Tot, hope all is well.

D

 

[intojoy]

It's too clunky, you's saying it is the church who lets but Paul is addressing the church. Would he have said to the church if it was the church which letteth "he that letteth will let until he be taken out of the way"

If no man knows the day of Christ's coming, how come believers who are alive during the tribulation know the exact day that Messiah returns?

So if we know the day Messiah will return which will be exactly 3 and a half years from the abomination of desolation then what is it again that no man knows the day and the hour? This must refer to the rapture.

 

[Danoh]

If no man knows the day of Christ's coming, how come believers who are alive during the tribulation know the exact day that Messiah returns?

So if we know the day Messiah will return which will be exactly 3 and a half years from the abomination of desolation then what is it again that no man knows the day and the hour? This must refer to the rapture.

Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

When the falling away from Moses happens the Believing remnant of Israel will know the world is in its last hours.

 

[Totton Linnet]

If no man knows the day of Christ's coming, how come believers who are alive during the tribulation know the exact day that Messiah returns?

So if we know the day Messiah will return which will be exactly 3 and a half years from the abomination of desolation then what is it again that no man knows the day and the hour? This must refer to the rapture.

This [I admit] sounds a little "on the hoof" but the Lord did not say "of that day no one will EVER at any time know....."

The scripture also says "the Lord will do nothing without revealing it to His servants the prophets" 2 Thess 2 pinpoints the time of our Lord's return to when the Man of sin seats himself in the temple.

Those who say that the gathering can happen at any time with no prior warning are mistaken.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

When the falling away from Moses happens the Believing remnant of Israel will know the world is in its last hours.

YOU have decided that the falling away is the Jewish rebellion against Moses....actually they have not rebelled against Moses any more than they always were in rebellion against him.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Yeah, I kinda felt that way about it myself.

Where's Tam, when I need her; she's so good at restructuring my sentence structures.

As for the other, Paul just as often uses 2nd and 3rd person as 1st when speaking to and or about the 2nd.

Haven't seen you around, Tot, hope all is well.

D

I am wonderfully well thank you. I hope you are too

 

[Totton Linnet]

Try this on

To discover who is meant by "he who lets..." we must first discover the mystery of nikwitty, what is it?

I believe it is man's endless quest for eternal life, he longs to live forever, the devil desires to live forever...but apart from righteousness, they wish to be perfectly evil forever and ever.

I want to die, that is to say I want some day to put aside this body of sin.

Behind all human endeavour is this yearning to live forever, it is what energises all science, it is the energising force behind art, the desire for fame.

I believe that somewhere in this world there is the tree of life, mebbe not actually a tree, but somewhere is the key to eternal life, the antidote to physical death.....but it is guarded

And the Lord God said behold the man is become as one of us to know good and evil and now , lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever.

Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden to till the ground from whence he was taken.

So He drave out the man and He placed at the east of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword which turned every way to keep the way of the tree of life.

This mighty angel is "he who lets" who will be taken out of the way...allowing the Man of lawlessness to be revealed.

This word "man of lawlessness" is peculiar. It does not mean law breaker, it means someone over who the law has zero application.

This is not the law of Moses but the law of sin and death. The man of lawlessness is someone who has overcome physical death.

 

[musterion]

Tot,

If it can be shown from Scripture that the period in question is the wrath of God from the start, your position would be refuted. Is that a fair statement?

 

[Danoh]

YOU have decided that the falling away is the Jewish rebellion against Moses....actually they have not rebelled against Moses any more than they always were in rebellion against him.

Totton, my own understanding is this…

In Acts 7, unbelieving Israel as a nation has all but reached the height of its rebellion against God in the Law and the Prophets’ assertion (as further witnessed first by the Lord and the Twelve in Matthew thru John, and again by the Spirit n Acts 1 thru 7 via the Twelve and those of the circumcision which believe with them) that Jesus was/is the LORD’s Prophesied Christ, Acts 7:51-53.

With that, Israel was then headed towards events which would culminate in the height of their rebellion; the height of their departure from Moses as to Who Christ was/is, John 5:43, John 5:46; Acts 7: 51-53.

The height of said departure from Moses would have culminated in their being taken in by the man of sin; c. f. Daniel. 11:32.

Israel was headed towards that. “But where sin abound, grace did much more abound,” Romans 5:20.

This is where the world was at until Romans 3:21, when God interrupted all that; saved Israel’s chief sinner in all this; Saul of Tarsus, 1 Tim. 1:15-16, and sent him out with His Mystery message of “grace and peace to you” to all without distinction, Romans thru Philemon.

When this offer of “grace and peace to you” is over with; Romans 11:25, then, at some point after that; Israel in unbelief, together with the rest of the world, will be right back where things were headed in in Romans 1:18 – Romans 3:19, the “cause” for “strong delusion” that Paul relates in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, will come upon the world, but for those “who know their God,” Daniel 11:32; Rev. 3:10-11.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Tot,

If it can be shown from Scripture that the period in question is the wrath of God from the start, your position would be refuted. Is that a fair statement?

The day of the Lord is not 24 hrs, The first two things God must do before He can pour out His wrath is to gather the Jews into their own land, this will have been done during the previous years, secondly He must gather the church, this He accomplishes in the rap Once ALL the people of God are safe He can pour out His wrath.

 

[musterion]

The day of the Lord is not 24 hrs, The first two things God must do before He can pour out His wrath is to gather the Jews into their own land, this will have been done during the previous years, secondly He must gather the church, this He accomplishes in the rap Once ALL the people of God are safe He can pour out His wrath.

Soooooo...is it a fair statement?