ECT Did God Really Tell Hosea to Marry a Prostitute?
- Thread starter Jason0047
- Start date
Ya think? Maybe? Perhaps we should do a little study on the words "harlot" and "whore". Whadda ya think will turn up?
I was not cut out for this. I don't have the requisite patience.
See Random's response:
Thank you; that's what I was going to say, at least the part about it not being fornication since Hosea married her.
Thus the point God was making in this, which I'm sure Jason got, even if he did misunderstand much of the rest of the events.
This is a topic which Jews can also discuss, as it is in the Torah, and they are more likely to know the original language and what it really says.
Jason0047
Member
OEJ:
I am not denying God cannot forgive women who are prostitutes. However, the key is that they have to repent of their ways and then turn to the Lord. Rahab feared the Lord. That is the difference.
In other words, I believe it is possible for a woman (who used to be a harlot in her past) and after having a changed heart and life from the Lord, I then believe she could marry an Israelite. I am not denying that possibility. When I said that an Israelite was not to marry a prostitute, I meant someone who was unrepentant towards God and still active in prostitution.
In fact, for me it is a big deal if God would have openly condoned the act of an unrepentant sinful activity in alignment with one of His most Holy of unions between a man and a woman. Why? Well, because God's ways are so much higher than our ways. He hates sin so much that He created a place of punishment for it called Hell. So for God to tell Hosea to marry a prostitute would go against the good character of God. It would be like God telling Hosea to marry a woman who was currently sacrificing babies. It is impossible for God to condone such sin or darkness. For God sees sin as despicable and wretched. I mean, would you marry a prostitute if you heard a voice from Heaven tell you to do it? No. Surely not. And why not? Because God's Word tells us otherwise. Unless of course she repented and turned to the Lord (of course).
God simply told Hosea to marry an Israelite woman of a people who had fallen into idolatry. She was not a prostitute in the beginning. Hosea later became a prostitute of her own choosing and God had used the evil that she had done for His greater glory and purpose! Just as God used the evil act of His own crucifixion (within the flesh of a man) for His ultimate plan for good (Which of course was for mankind).
LH:
Although we may not agree with on this topic completely, thank you for being kind, my friend.
:thumb:
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themuzicman
Well-known member
Umm... how is sex with someone one is married to "fornication"?
Again, where is the sin on Hosea's part?
Um... Again, how is sex with one's wife fornication?
Um... Again, how is sex with one's wife fornication?
I believe you fail to understand the book of Hosea.
Umm... whoredoms means she's a prostitute.
You're missing the entire point of Hosea.
No. You have yet to explain how taking a prostitute as a wife and having sex with her is sin.
Colossians
New member
Jason,
You are applying New Testament consummated knowledge to an Old Testament situation: you are mismatching paradigms.
God doesn't work with nations anymore, so the whole OT thing is defunct anyway.
Commensurately, God no longer tells us to go out and kill Philistines, or for that matter to wage any physical warfare, and yet you don't seem to be too concerned with His having commanded that such be done in the OT times.
Because God worked with Israel on a national basis, as a type for the church which is His wife, He commanded that things be done for the sake of teaching us of the NT. Thus Peter tells us that the prophets of old knew that they were not ministering to the people of their time, but to us of the NT period (1 Pe 1:12).
So God told Hosea to marry a prostitute so that the marriage might exemplify (particularly to us of the NT period) just what Israel (and all people who exult in following the law in lieu of following faith) was like toward God.
You have to understand that a prophet was a representative of God: God's proxi - one through whom the Word of the Lord came. So a prophet would demonstrate things in a very tangible manner.
Note then the manner of the NT prophet Agabus:
"And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. " Acts 21:10,11
Do you see here how that Agabus acted out the binding Paul would receive?
And note the story of Elisha and the Shunamite woman whose son had died:
"And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed. He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD. And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm." 2 Ki 4:32-34
Do you see how that Elisha acted out the Lord's role toward us in that he joined himself to the dead in a very tangible way?
Likewise, Hosea represented God, and Gomer represented Israel.
Now....Jason, you are a young believer, and you need to submit to elders in the Lord. Young believers are very much hung up on purity, which is fine if it were in fact purity, but it is really a disguise for their own self-righteousness and salvation via the works of the law.
So you need to put a hold on your purity focus, and contemplate what I have told you here.
You are applying New Testament consummated knowledge to an Old Testament situation: you are mismatching paradigms.
God doesn't work with nations anymore, so the whole OT thing is defunct anyway.
Commensurately, God no longer tells us to go out and kill Philistines, or for that matter to wage any physical warfare, and yet you don't seem to be too concerned with His having commanded that such be done in the OT times.
Because God worked with Israel on a national basis, as a type for the church which is His wife, He commanded that things be done for the sake of teaching us of the NT. Thus Peter tells us that the prophets of old knew that they were not ministering to the people of their time, but to us of the NT period (1 Pe 1:12).
So God told Hosea to marry a prostitute so that the marriage might exemplify (particularly to us of the NT period) just what Israel (and all people who exult in following the law in lieu of following faith) was like toward God.
You have to understand that a prophet was a representative of God: God's proxi - one through whom the Word of the Lord came. So a prophet would demonstrate things in a very tangible manner.
Note then the manner of the NT prophet Agabus:
"And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. " Acts 21:10,11
Do you see here how that Agabus acted out the binding Paul would receive?
And note the story of Elisha and the Shunamite woman whose son had died:
"And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed. He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD. And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm." 2 Ki 4:32-34
Do you see how that Elisha acted out the Lord's role toward us in that he joined himself to the dead in a very tangible way?
Likewise, Hosea represented God, and Gomer represented Israel.
Now....Jason, you are a young believer, and you need to submit to elders in the Lord. Young believers are very much hung up on purity, which is fine if it were in fact purity, but it is really a disguise for their own self-righteousness and salvation via the works of the law.
So you need to put a hold on your purity focus, and contemplate what I have told you here.
Jason0047
Member
C:
No. It is not a coincidence that modern Bible translations try to stress the point that Gomer was a prostitute when the King James (1769 Edition) says no such thing. Also, I am fully aware we are no longer under the Old Covenant but under the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was a shadow of things to come and we can see Jesus or the Messiah in practically every little detail in the Old Testament. However, God's good character and moral laws do not change, though. God would not command a sinful union just because some wave of the magic wand of marriage has taken place.
There is a huge difference between protecting one's nation and people as a nation and having union with someone who is continuing in fornication.
It is true, the Old Testament does minister to the New Testament. However, as you may know Israel is not counted out just yet. God will later graft them in again in the End Times. For the 144,000 remaining Jews (during the End Times) will accept Jesus as their Savior and be dedicated to Him. Unfortunately, many churches are not in support of this fact.
It is true. One of the purposes of the Old Testament was to show how man could not keep the law perfectly. However, that does not mean there are not any men justified by faith (along with their works) in the Old Testament, though (Hebrews 11). For true faith brings forth works. Salvation Works is works trying to attain favor with God without true repentance.
Yes, I already knew this. In fact, I have already pointed this fact out within this thread.
I have been a believer since 1992 and one thing I learned in all that time is that one of the most dangerous things a Christian can do today is to blindly submit to a person or church without checking out what they believe with the Word of God first. For God wants us to be like the Bereans who seek out the Word of God first to see if the teachings on doctrine are true or not. For it is not church elders but it is God and His Word that is our ultimate authority. In other words, when our leaders in the church are true Christians and are teaching correct core doctrines, only then should we submit to their authority. For you have to remember. The early church is a lot different than the churches today. So we have to be extra crazy careful of who we follow.
As for the works based salvation thing:
Okay. People have got to stop claiming this is what I believe when in reality, nothing could be further from the truth. I have tried explaining in the one OSAS thread, but it has appeared to have fallen on deaf ears.
If your interested in check out what I wrote on this topic, here is my post: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3068812&postcount=586
This Charming Manc
Well-known member
Boy i'm glad i'm not you pastor.
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I am glad i'm not anyones pastor really
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I am glad i'm not anyones pastor really
Jason0047
Member
TMM:
Fornication is another word for sexual immorality or harlotry. In fact, the Hebrew word "zanah" has a meaning of "harlotry".
You may not be able to see it if your reading a modern Bible translation. Break out the King James version (1769 Edition). It says "wife of whoredoms". Now, if you were to look at dictionary.com's Biblical definition, it says the word "whoredom" is defined as idolatry.
That is only one possible definition. You are coloring the word so that God would command someone to have unity with someone who is sinning. I mean, would have been okay for God to command Hosea to marry someone who is into other sexual perversions? Such as sleeping with women, animals, etc.
I know Hosea and Gomer's story is a parallel of God and Israel. However, that does not change the open condoning of sin.
God forgives people who repent of sin. The Lord would not command or condone the actions of a marriage union between a Holy man and a person who was still "sinning" (and unrepentant). Keyword here is "sinning". Just because someone is married does not automatically make the other person forgiven or their heart right with God anymore.
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S
Strefanash
Guest
the reading in the OP is too legalistic. God told Hosea to marry a harlot to make a point in a certain situation to a certain culture.
At other points God told prophets to in fact break the letter of the Law: as in one of them baking his bread over a fire of human dung.
The Dread Lord is like that. He has told his prophets to do outrageous things in certain circumstances: Isaiah going around naked for 3 years, another lying on a brick for along time.
WE limit God by our own prissy legalistic reading of scripture
At other points God told prophets to in fact break the letter of the Law: as in one of them baking his bread over a fire of human dung.
The Dread Lord is like that. He has told his prophets to do outrageous things in certain circumstances: Isaiah going around naked for 3 years, another lying on a brick for along time.
WE limit God by our own prissy legalistic reading of scripture
Jason0047
Member
S:
Let's look at the verse in Hosea again in the original Kings James.
"The beginning of the word of the Lord by Hosea. And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the Lord." ~ (Hosea 1:2)
Now, if God asked Hosea to marry a wife of whoredoms or a prostitute, then you must conclude that the Lord had also commanded Hosea to adopt or raise children who were of whoredoms or into prostitution, too.
You can't have one without the other. Either the word "whoredoms" is a reference to a wife and children who were of "prostitution" or of a people who were involved in "idolatry".
However, the very last sentence of the verse gives us the key to understanding it, though. For it says the Lord departs because the people of Israel were into idolatry. In other words, Israel was not a bunch of prostitutes! They were idolaters! God was simply saying to take a wife of these idolaters.
Therefore, the verse should read like this...
"The beginning of the word of the Lord by Hosea. And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of idolaters and children of idolaters: for the land hath committed great idolatry, departing from the Lord." ~ (Hosea 1:2)
This wasn't a breaking of the law in Ezekiel 4:12-15. It was a negotiation that led to an amendment of the Law.
You cannot call yourself a Christian and then refer to the Lord in such a manner (even jokingly). Well, technically you should not do such a thing no matter who you are.
Strange requests are not the same as commanding someone to have a marital union with an unrepentant sinner.
Taking the entire Bible into context and the surrounding verses, and chapter should be our focus when interpreting Scripture. I know from the Bible that God is incapable of sinning or condoning any type of unrepentant sinful activity. When I know the true character of God according to the Scriptures, I can then look at all other verses in their proper context within the Bible.
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Colossians
New member
Jason,
I have perused your response to me, and you have not addressed nor heeded what I have said to you.
Therefore as I said, your idea of Christianity is simply a disguised form of salvation via the works of the law: you think the whole thing is about moral purity, when it is in fact about the person of God and nothing else.
I have pointed out to you two very specific examples of how prophets (both NT and OT) acted out in paradigm the judgements of God, and all you have done is come back with your morality dogma. So you have not addressed what I have said, but have simply dismissed it in deference to your dogmatic idea that it is wrong to marry a prostitute.
And I have pointed out to you it is also wrong to kill babies, yet God told the Israelites to kill the babies of their enemies. You seem to have no trouble with that.
So we see you are plagued by the same ol' thing most young Christian men are plagued by: you are preoccupied with the prohibitions of sex: you see your Christianity primarily outworked in your resisting the temptation to fornicate.
Thus you are not yet living in the freedom that is in Christ: you are constantly plagued by right-and-wrong issues, rather than focussing on Christ alone. So your Christianity is at present, as I have said, to a large degree a work of the law with the alias "Christ" over the top of it.
There is no point discussing anything further with you, for at present you are unteachable. You don't respond to points made, but simply quote them, and then repeat your dogma as ostensible response. A common trick in the internet, and one for which I have little time any more.
With regard to exposition of scripture, you fail to incorporate a distinction in knowledge between the OT and NT eras, and this chiefly because you are in fact under the OT law to a large extent: you don't understand that the believer has been crucified with Christ. You think you do, but you in fact don't, for your idea is that because you are crucifed with Christ, you should obey the law, when in fact the opposite is the case: one who is crucified with Christ has no need for, nor even interest in, following the law: he is too busy looking at Jesus Christ.
I refer viewers to my post #26 which provides a template for how to deal with the issue of the thread.
I have perused your response to me, and you have not addressed nor heeded what I have said to you.
Therefore as I said, your idea of Christianity is simply a disguised form of salvation via the works of the law: you think the whole thing is about moral purity, when it is in fact about the person of God and nothing else.
I have pointed out to you two very specific examples of how prophets (both NT and OT) acted out in paradigm the judgements of God, and all you have done is come back with your morality dogma. So you have not addressed what I have said, but have simply dismissed it in deference to your dogmatic idea that it is wrong to marry a prostitute.
And I have pointed out to you it is also wrong to kill babies, yet God told the Israelites to kill the babies of their enemies. You seem to have no trouble with that.
So we see you are plagued by the same ol' thing most young Christian men are plagued by: you are preoccupied with the prohibitions of sex: you see your Christianity primarily outworked in your resisting the temptation to fornicate.
Thus you are not yet living in the freedom that is in Christ: you are constantly plagued by right-and-wrong issues, rather than focussing on Christ alone. So your Christianity is at present, as I have said, to a large degree a work of the law with the alias "Christ" over the top of it.
There is no point discussing anything further with you, for at present you are unteachable. You don't respond to points made, but simply quote them, and then repeat your dogma as ostensible response. A common trick in the internet, and one for which I have little time any more.
With regard to exposition of scripture, you fail to incorporate a distinction in knowledge between the OT and NT eras, and this chiefly because you are in fact under the OT law to a large extent: you don't understand that the believer has been crucified with Christ. You think you do, but you in fact don't, for your idea is that because you are crucifed with Christ, you should obey the law, when in fact the opposite is the case: one who is crucified with Christ has no need for, nor even interest in, following the law: he is too busy looking at Jesus Christ.
I refer viewers to my post #26 which provides a template for how to deal with the issue of the thread.
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Colossians
New member
One final comment:
However, as you may know Israel is not counted out just yet
It was never counted in.
What you fail to understand, is that God only saves people on an individual basis, predicated on the basis of their need for personal salvation. It matters not what race they belong to, nor what era they live in.
So God does not submit anyone's need for salvation, to some higher scheme of nationalism, for the two aspects necessarily conflict with one another: if one is in need of salvation while he is alive, he is no better off if great-grandson Eli will be saved: one is only better off if he himself is saved.
Commensurately and conversely, God does not save any individual because they belong to a particular race, for that is to respect the flesh.
So you need to run away and study Romans 11 properly. And you need to think through things properly. At present your ideas are not tenable with common sense, but your mind is filled with dispensationalist trash born of teachings from uneducated people with poor reading and comprehension skills.
God will later graft them in again in the End Times.
Once again you lack attention to reality.
There is no "them": there are only individuals. Individuals don't exist in a time in which they don't live: they only exist when they exist, and after that it is too late to be saved.
God can't save "them": He can only save individuals, and therefore "them" doesn't count: either one comes to Christ on the basis of a personal need for salvation when he lives on earth, pointed out to him by the Holy Ghost, or one does not. It is irrelevant and of no import whatsoever what race he belongs to.
So you simply don't think according to reality, but have your head in quasi-sci-fi Christianity ala Kenneth Hagin and Co.
For the 144,000 remaining Jews (during the End Times) will accept Jesus as their Savior and be dedicated to Him.
Don't be silly.
God doesn't care about numbers of people, but the persons themselves.
How ridiculous, God sitting up in heaven logging the number of 'Jews' who accept Him as Lord. I can see it now:
"Gabriel, what's the count up to?"
"Oh....we're just about there: 143,963: only 37 more and we're all done".
"Great!" says God, "I really love the number 144,000: in fact I worship it!".
A few minutes later....
"Ooops! Hey God! 23 of those 143,963 just got killed in a bus accident, 15 died of heart disease, and 10 from snipers. Oh and one's just gone into a coma in Tel Aviv hospital, so we'll have to revise our numbers down. Looks like it'll be a few more days till we hit the magic number!"
God: "Darn it! And I was going to have a happy 144,000 party tomorrow night!"
Ludicrous. The number 144,000 is simply a figure for the fact that God will save everyone who is to be saved. It is 12 square, by 10 x 10 x 10, and speaks to the fact that God's Bride is perfect and God's salvation is perfectly executed.
Unfortunately, many churches are not in support of this fact.
As I have shown above, it is rather the case that many Christians don't use their God-give brain.
The book of Revelation, just like Ezekiel and Daniel and Isaiah, cannot be taken literally. It is given in figures, as the poetic language of the Spirit of God. It is not time-based, but conceptually based: the numbers and events transverse all time periods: it relates a perpetuality of God's modus operandi.
But you just keep on closing that literalist fundamentalist mind of yours and living in fairytale land, looking forward to God's saving exactly 144,000 people who happen to be Jews (whatever that means: no supposed Jew today can track his ancestry back more than anyone else, and most Jews are not even Semitic, but are from the Turks and Germany: they are a business club). So even if God would want to save 144,000 Jews (just for kicks), no-one would care less because hardly any of them would have been identified as Jews by the population at large anyway, so no-one would be able to confirm the 144,000! Wearing a little round cap and showing up at Jewish birthdays, doesn't make you a Jew: a Jew is really only someone who keeps the Mosaic law religiously, which means there are no Jews in the world today. Even the Hasidic Jews (who incidentally think that the modern Israel idea is rubbish) don't keep the Mosaic law fully, and they are as close as you'll ever get today to a real Jew.
And of course what is even more ludicrous, is that if you're number 144,001 you don't get saved!
However, as you may know Israel is not counted out just yet
It was never counted in.
What you fail to understand, is that God only saves people on an individual basis, predicated on the basis of their need for personal salvation. It matters not what race they belong to, nor what era they live in.
So God does not submit anyone's need for salvation, to some higher scheme of nationalism, for the two aspects necessarily conflict with one another: if one is in need of salvation while he is alive, he is no better off if great-grandson Eli will be saved: one is only better off if he himself is saved.
Commensurately and conversely, God does not save any individual because they belong to a particular race, for that is to respect the flesh.
So you need to run away and study Romans 11 properly. And you need to think through things properly. At present your ideas are not tenable with common sense, but your mind is filled with dispensationalist trash born of teachings from uneducated people with poor reading and comprehension skills.
God will later graft them in again in the End Times.
Once again you lack attention to reality.
There is no "them": there are only individuals. Individuals don't exist in a time in which they don't live: they only exist when they exist, and after that it is too late to be saved.
God can't save "them": He can only save individuals, and therefore "them" doesn't count: either one comes to Christ on the basis of a personal need for salvation when he lives on earth, pointed out to him by the Holy Ghost, or one does not. It is irrelevant and of no import whatsoever what race he belongs to.
So you simply don't think according to reality, but have your head in quasi-sci-fi Christianity ala Kenneth Hagin and Co.
For the 144,000 remaining Jews (during the End Times) will accept Jesus as their Savior and be dedicated to Him.
Don't be silly.
God doesn't care about numbers of people, but the persons themselves.
How ridiculous, God sitting up in heaven logging the number of 'Jews' who accept Him as Lord. I can see it now:
"Gabriel, what's the count up to?"
"Oh....we're just about there: 143,963: only 37 more and we're all done".
"Great!" says God, "I really love the number 144,000: in fact I worship it!".
A few minutes later....
"Ooops! Hey God! 23 of those 143,963 just got killed in a bus accident, 15 died of heart disease, and 10 from snipers. Oh and one's just gone into a coma in Tel Aviv hospital, so we'll have to revise our numbers down. Looks like it'll be a few more days till we hit the magic number!"
God: "Darn it! And I was going to have a happy 144,000 party tomorrow night!"
Ludicrous. The number 144,000 is simply a figure for the fact that God will save everyone who is to be saved. It is 12 square, by 10 x 10 x 10, and speaks to the fact that God's Bride is perfect and God's salvation is perfectly executed.
Unfortunately, many churches are not in support of this fact.
As I have shown above, it is rather the case that many Christians don't use their God-give brain.
The book of Revelation, just like Ezekiel and Daniel and Isaiah, cannot be taken literally. It is given in figures, as the poetic language of the Spirit of God. It is not time-based, but conceptually based: the numbers and events transverse all time periods: it relates a perpetuality of God's modus operandi.
But you just keep on closing that literalist fundamentalist mind of yours and living in fairytale land, looking forward to God's saving exactly 144,000 people who happen to be Jews (whatever that means: no supposed Jew today can track his ancestry back more than anyone else, and most Jews are not even Semitic, but are from the Turks and Germany: they are a business club). So even if God would want to save 144,000 Jews (just for kicks), no-one would care less because hardly any of them would have been identified as Jews by the population at large anyway, so no-one would be able to confirm the 144,000! Wearing a little round cap and showing up at Jewish birthdays, doesn't make you a Jew: a Jew is really only someone who keeps the Mosaic law religiously, which means there are no Jews in the world today. Even the Hasidic Jews (who incidentally think that the modern Israel idea is rubbish) don't keep the Mosaic law fully, and they are as close as you'll ever get today to a real Jew.
And of course what is even more ludicrous, is that if you're number 144,001 you don't get saved!
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How do you interpret chapter 3? [I am reading from a translation I do not like]
The Lord said to me again "Go love a woman who has a lover and is an adulteress...."
...So I bought her for 15 shekels of silver and a homer of barley and a measure of wine.
The Lord said to me again "Go love a woman who has a lover and is an adulteress...."
...So I bought her for 15 shekels of silver and a homer of barley and a measure of wine.
Burning Bush
New member
:cloud9: Do a study on Hosea 1. Gomer was a MAN'S NAME (name means nature), and "her" father's name means "double embrace". Gomer was one of 8 persons saved in Noah's Ark. NOTHING in there is as it seems, on the surface.
Yes, do that.
Hosea 1 KJV
(3) So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.
Burning Bush
New member
:yawn: You didn't understand what I said. I said Gomer is a man's name; I didn't say Gomer WAS a man.....it was a CLUE that there is a deeper understanding than the surface one, as always.
Jason0047
Member
C:
#1. No Works = A Dead Faith.
Faith is dead without works (James 2:17) and if your Faith is dead then you do not have the proper method to access the grace of God (Ephesians 2:8). Now, although salvation is not based solely upon works alone (Ephesians 2:9) for a person needs to first clean the inside of the cup first (i.e. repentance) before cleaning the outside (Matthew 23:26); However, people still need to show their faith by their works (James 2:18), though. Now, if you think works in general is heretical, then please read Hebrews Chapter 11 (The heroes of faith did not just merely believe but they had moved with works of action to show their faith).
#2. It is Not I Alone That Does The Works
Just as Jesus said that it is not He that does the works but His Father that does the works thru Him (John 14:10), I know that it is not myself alone that does the works, but the Spirit of God working thru me. For we are told within the Scriptures to abide within the Spirit. I know that without God, my works would be as filthy rags and they would be nothing. For it is God that provides saving grace to me upon the cross thru faith and it is God who works obedience and being fruitful (with works) for His Kingdom within me. None of these things are a self directed plan of salvation (John 15:5). It is all based on Scripture and it is all based on God saving me and working within me. Tell me, how is that a works based salvation like the Pharisees (Who did all the works but didn't have their hearts right with God)?
So are you saying that your viewpoint is not being influenced by some kind of dogmatic idea that I can willfully remain in unrepentant sin and yet abide in the good graces of God? Are you telling me to ignore Scripture verses like the Parable of the Sower that tells me a person can endure in the faith for a while and then fall away? Are you telling me the children of the Kingdom are not going to be cast into outer darkness? Are you telling me the Parable of the Ten Virgins is not about the believer? Are you telling me Jesus' report card on the spiritual condition of the churches in Revelation Chapters 2-3 only applies to the churches and not the individual believer?
God is the giver and taker of all life (Job 1:21). We are not God to have the Almighty power or divine knowledge to take a life for our own selfish purposes. When God commanded babies to be killed along with their sinful and wicked parents, He was giving them an immediate ticket to Heaven (because they were innocent) and He was preventing these children from having to grow up to take revenge on their parents' deaths.
To believe in "Eternal Security" is to twist the normal straight forward reading of the majority of the Scriptures that warn Christians to abide in true faith. It also violates the basic common law of logic about being good versus being evil. Which is something even little children know about. This is clearly seen when children can easily point out to you who the hero is and who the villain is within a movie (Which can be determined by looking at that person's actions).
"I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." ~ (Luke 18:17)
Whoa! What? Stop the presses! Are you a Christian and yet telling me to sin under the good grace of God? Are you telling me you approve the actions of men who claim to be for God and yet commit abominable immoral acts with children in the name of the Lord could be saved? Are you telling me to go against God's Word and be hateful like the West Boro Baptist Church? I mean, once you start down that road to depravity or sin it just keeps getting deeper and deeper. Such a thing would be wrong, my friend.
Please do not be deceived into thinking that a one time salvation prayer covers a Christians future sins. If a person sins, they must then confess that sin to God so they can abide in the Spirit of God. For you cannot serve both God and sin and then wrap it up in some magical false cloak of God's grace. I am sorry, it just doesn't work that way; Neither the Scriptures or basic logic would support such an evil concept.
For even David in Psalm 51 had to confess his sin. In fact, if your interested in hearing a great sermon on Psalm 51, please check out this audio sermon here by Bill Mounce.
http://www.biblicaltraining.org/confrontation-and-confession/major-stories-bible
Focusing on Christ alone is to be like Christ. Christ never sinned. He set the example for us to follow. If you are focusing on being like Christ alone then shouldn't you be like Him? If you are sinning and or not being a fruitful like Christ, then you are not focusing on Christ alone.
How can Christ condemn that which He did? Should we continue to do wrong (i.e. sin) so that saving grace of God might shine forth?
For this same very question is asked of us in the book of Romans.
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" ~ (Romans 6:1-2)
Israel or the people in the Old Testament were never justified by law. We can be assured of this fact because no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law (Romans 3:20). Then how were the folks in the OT justified? They were justified by faith (Again, see Hebrews 11) by imputed righteousness.
I mean think about it. What sounds more wrong to you?
Doing good by God by obeying and being fruitful for Him or by remaining in your sins and then hypocritically preaching a gospel message of God's plan of repentance to do away with sin?
Thus, when a person believes God told Hosea to marry a prostitute (Which is not true) it goes against not only the good character of God, but it also shows us that people today are being blinded into condoning evil in the cloak of something else. In the case of Hosea, a person will use the cloak of marriage as an excuse. In "Eternal Security", a person uses the grace of God as an excuse. However, evil committed cannot be hidden or shrouded by some magical imaginary cloak. When you commit evil, it still makes you the villain of the story no matter what you say (or what verse you try to use).
Anyways, if you want to reply to me on the topic of "Eternal Security", please reply to me in this OSAS thread here.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45557&page=45
Thank you for reading;
And peace be unto you, my dear friend.
Sincerely,
~Jason.
Side Note:
Oh, and here is my reply to your final Comment, too.
Jason0047 said:
Although, it is true that God does save people on an individual basis from both the Old Testament and the New Testament, this does not discount the fact that God did not have a people that He called His own (despite many of them being unfaithful or unsaved). From the story of Moses on forward we see a nation that represents the Lord God Almighty! God had delivered them out of Egypt, fought battles for them, and promised to keep them as an everlasting nation.
http://www.sbsstevenson.org/israel.html
Jason0047 said:
You underestimate the power of the Lord, my friend. In fact, lets use Scripture and logic to refute this flawed sense of reasoning on this one. However, before we begin, lets find out the identity of who these 144,000 really are, though.
"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand."
~ (Revelation 7:4-8)
Now, I want you to read the first sentence in the above verse and then answer the following question.
Who are the 144,000?
(a) Body of Christ
(b) Flying Monkeys
(c) Jehovah's Witnesses
(d) Children of Israel
(e) Revelation is Symbolic & We Can't Know What the Book Truly Says.
"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." ~ (Revelation 7:4)
Did you catch that? The correct answer is:
(d) Children of Israel.
Well, if that answer is not good enough for you, all you need do is write down the names of each of the twelve tribes of Israel (in the subsequent following verses) and see if they had ever been mentioned in the Old Testament as a reference to being associated with the Nation of Israel.
Using this method you should have no problem identifying the identity of the 144,000.
Okay, now that we know "who" the major player is in this ball game, lets now move on in how God might have accomplished the amazing task of getting the exact number of the 144,000 remaining Jews to accept Jesus in the End Times.
Well, as I already stated above within this post, the Bible tells us that the Lord is the giver and the taker of life (Job 1:21). Scripture also tells us that He is Omniscient (or all knowing) (Psalm 147:5). God's Word also tells us that the Lord is outside of time, too (Psalm 90:2).
Now, taking this all into account. God can...
1. Create life and end life whenever he pleases.
2. He not only can have knowledge of the future but He can be in all points in time at once (Because He is outside of time).
Therefore, we must conclude that God could count out for Himself the exact amount of Jews that He needed by simply creating or taking away life because He ultimately possesses the keys to life and death.
Let me ask you this. Would you read the instructions to building a plane metaphorically? Then why would you read the visions in Revelation, Daniel, and Ezekiel metaphorically? I mean, these books already use metaphors, don't you think it would be a little redundant or overkill if the events within these books were a metaphor, too? Oh, and if the events are metaphorical, what Scripture verses or source of information are you using to get some kind of meaning out of it?
Therefore, unless you have an iron clad set of verses backing up your shiny new interpretation of your metaphorical interpretation of the events within Revelation, Daniel, and Ezekiel, you have just basically regulated the end book of the Bible and the prophecies in the Old Testament as a bunch of unknowable back ground noise.
However, God did not create these prophecies to be unknowable or symbolically hidden as you claim. They literally and metaphorically explain the end times in extremely vivid detail.
How do we know for sure?
Well, the pattern of prophecies that have transpired before is the key to understanding the prophecies of the End Times.
We know the Messiah was foretold of in the Old Testament and was fulfilled within the New Testament.
http://preservedwords.com/prophecies.htm
We can calculate the mathematics of the prophecy (in Daniel) with the Messiah's reveal as king.
http://www.alphanewsdaily.com/mathprophecy1.html
We can calculate the mathematics of the prophecy of Israel coming in as a Nation in 1948.
http://www.alphanewsdaily.com/mathprophecy2.html
All of which if you didn't take such prophecies literally, you wouldn't be able to understand them at all.
It is irrelevant if a Jew can trace his ancestry back or not. For God knows who these 144,000 will be in the End Times. It is also irrelevant if any of these future Messianic Jews would have obeyed the Old Covenant Law or not, too. For their imperfection of trying to keep the Old Covenant would not effect their decision in accepting Jesus as their Savior and or their dedication to Him.
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Jason0047
Member
Linnet:
Actually, most people believe Hosea 3:1 is talking about Hosea taking Gomer back to be his wife. However, the problem with this view is that people fail to understand the rules of Biblical marriage, though. In fact, if your interested...
Here are some reasons that refute the idea that Hosea took Gomer back to be his wife…
#1. "Gomer is referred to as an adulteress (not as a wife)"
For the book of Romans tells us this…
"For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man." ~ (Romans 7:2-3)
In other words, according to the rules of Biblical marriage, Gomer no longer bears the label of a "wife" but as an "adulteress". For an "adulteress" is not the wife of one man but of many men and therefore, she is a fornicator of marriage.
In addition, the prophet Hosea was commanded by God to love and care for Gomer despite her no longer being his wife, which is indicated by the title of "adulteress". This awkward estranged relationship between Hosea and Gomer is a parallel of the relationship God had with Israel (during this time). Israel's fornication is explained to us in the latter half of verse one.
"…the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine." ~ (Hosea 3:1)
This means the relationship that Israel had with the Lord has been divided by their fornication of idolatry, although not as a "husband and wife", but as a "God and His people."
Now, the Lord still loved Israel, but now they would be in an estranged relationship. He would care for them, yet, they would not benefit from all that they had when they were His alone. They would be...
"...without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim" (Hosea 3:4).
#2. "Hosea said Gomer is not his wife"
Hosea emphatically stated that Gomer was not his wife saying,
"Say ye unto your brethren, Ammi, and to your sisters, Ruhama, Plead with your mother, plead; for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband..." (Hosea 2:1-3).
In essence, Hosea is telling Jezreel, his blood son from Gomer when she was his wife, to tell his half brother and half sister that their mother, who had them by another man or other men through her adulteries, is now no longer his wife. Hosea also declares that for her to save herself ("Plead with your mother, plead"), she must stop living in fornication, if she doesn't want to face harsh judgment. The only answer when fornication is committed is to repent and live celibate. This is the only way to not commit fornication again.
#3. "The purchase tells us the nature of the relationship"
Hosea 3:2 says that the love that is shown by Hosea to Gomer is to purchase her as a man would purchase a prostitute, providing for her needs, yet not joining himself to her in a sexual way as he did when he married her. Through this possession, she is to stay celibate and he also commits to staying celibate with her in order to care for her. He sacrifices both his finances and his physical sexual needs for her well being. This is the true love story of sacrifice that people should be writing about.
He couldn't take her or he would fornicate himself with her. This resembles the sacrifice of God caring for Israel at the present time, and yet not having them as a people or a nation that are His in a holy way. The covenant of Christ and His Spirit would eventually change this situation including both Jew and Gentile, declared in Hosea 2:14-23. This is the new and intended Israel - the descendants of Abraham by faith.
Anyways, I will close with these two Scripture verses:
"...therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall"
~ (Hosea 4:14)
"Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the Lord are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein." ~ (Hosea 14:9)
There is forgiveness, but however, the sin of fornication produces consequences.
Sources:
http://blogs.christianpost.com/marriage/god-told-hosea-to-do-what-4672/
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themuzicman
Well-known member
And a harlot is....
Um.. Two problems, here.
First dictionary.com isn't exactly the authority on biblical terms.
Second, as you point out above, the text is written in Hebrew, and the Hebrew word has nothing to do with idolatry in its lexical form.
Dictionary.com comes up with this as the symbolic interpretation of Gomer's harlotry and adultery in being married to Hosea with respect to Israel's worshiping of other gods.
So, your source isn't one we would accept as authoritative for biblical translation, and the Hebrew word is pretty specific.
Why wouldn't it be OK for God to command Hosea to marry that person, especially for the purpose of making a prophetic point. God commanded Ezekiel to burn human excrement to cook his meals, too.
In what way was sin condoned? Just as God expected Israel to remain faithful in covenant, Hosea had every expectation that Gomer would be faithful in marriage.
But she wasn't. Just like Israel wasn't. Does that mean God condoned sin when He entered into Covenant with Israel, who constantly went after other gods?
I'm a little skittish of people who speak for God without Scriptural support. And I am completely unclear as to why God wouldn't command a prophet to marry a prostitute, especially given the point that God is making through that prophet.