Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

[voltaire]

You surprise me sometimes william. you can see doors point that paul and john both where christians who sometimes made points hypothetically posing as a non christian or someone who was deceived. congratulations for opening your eyes.

 

[Door]

Jerry, this post merits an answer from your perspective (he may have a point, weak as it is).

In my mind, each context must be evaluated on its own merits, since words/phrases can be used differently (range of meanings) depending on the context.

You surprise me sometimes william. you can see doors point that paul and john both where christians who sometimes made points hypothetically posing as a non christian or someone who was deceived. congratulations for opening your eyes.

:up:

Notice that Jerry ignored This post as well. He whines like a baby if you do not address what he says at least 10 different times, but he repeatedly ignores just about everything anyone else says.

Btw William, how is your mom?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, this post merits an answer from your perspective (he may have a point, weak as it is).

In my mind, each context must be evaluated on its own merits, since words/phrases can be used differently (range of meanings) depending on the context.

It may merit an answer but it does not help Door's case in the least.

What Paul is telling these Christians is that they have already received a gospel, and if anyone, no matter who it is (including the Christians who Paul was including in the category "we"), preached another gospel to them then they should know that that gospel is a false gospel.

Door is just grasping at straws and nothing more.

According to his own admission the pronouns at 1 John 1:9 are speaking of Christians. According to his own admission the KJV translation of the same verse is correct. hen we put the two together we get:

If Christisans confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our (Christian's) sins, and to cleanse us (Christians) from all unrighteousness.

If Door wants to win the debate he must somehow prove that even though John said that Christians are to confess their sins that he really did not mean it!

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

you can see doors point that paul and john both where christians who sometimes made points hypothetically posing as a non christian or someone who was deceived. congratulations for opening your eyes.

OK, voltaire,

Tell me how John was using 1 John 1:9 hypothetically.

We have already seen the Door agress with me that the pronouns in that verse are in reference to Christians. He also agrees with me that the KJV translation is correct. Put those two together and we get:

If Christisans confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our (Christian's) sins, and to cleanse us (Christians) from all unrighteousness.

Now please tell me how John might be using this hypothectically.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[voltaire]

I dont really think that door meant those pronouns refer to any christian at any time as if it could be applied to all christians. he agreed with me when i said the pronouns referred to john and those with john who had seen, heard and touched Jesus. That is quite different and makes all the difference in the world in what the verse is saying.

 

[Door]

If Door wants to win the debate he must somehow prove that even though John said that Christians are to confess their sins that he really did not mean it!

I've already won the debate Jerry. It was won 2000 years ago when John wrote his letter. You simply have not come to grips with reality in your depraved mind.

 

[voltaire]

John does not mean all christians at all times when he uses we, our and us. i am not going to tell you how he is using verse 9 hypothetically with (christians) plugged in for we, our and us because that just isnt true. now, if you want me to show how john is using verse 9 hypothetically using the people referred to in verses 1 and 2 , i will be happy to do it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

John does not mean all christians at all times when he uses we, our and us. i am not going to tell you how he is using verse 9 hypothetically with (christians) plugged in for we, our and us because that just isnt true. now, if you want me to show how john is using verse 9 hypothetically using the people referred to in verses 1 and 2 , i will be happy to do it.

So at one time Christians were to confess their sins but not now?

Show me how John is using 1 John 1: 9 in any sense.

 

[Door]

Oh brother (that's just a phrase I use when talking to someone who is clueless and is not listening. It is in no way a delcaration that you are a brother).

 

[voltaire]

Christians were not told by john that if they would confess their sins (as christians) , God will forgive them their sins at that time or EVER! i will tell you what john is saying in CONTEXT the next post.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I've already won the debate Jerry. It was won 2000 years ago when John wrote his letter. You simply have not come to grips with reality in your depraved mind.

What difference does it make when the epistle was written. It was written for Christians then and the doctrine in that epistle applies to Christians today.

You continue to grasp for straws because you realize that your own words have doomed your efforts in this debate. By your own words you agree with me that the pronouns at 1 John 1:9 are in reference to Christians. You also agree with me that the KJV translation is correct. Put those two together and we get:

If Christisans confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our (Christian's) sins, and to cleanse us (Christians) from all unrighteousness.

Door, you are still a babe in Christ. You prove that you are still an infant, not able to understand the "types" that illustrate the truth of 1 John 1:9.

You were unable to give an intelligent answer to the "type" of the Lord Jesus washing the feet of His disciples. Another "type" that illustrates the truth of 1 John 1:9 is the role played by the high priest under the law.

The duties of the high priest under the law were for a nation that had already been redeemed and sprinkled with the blood of the covenant.

The Lord Jesus, as the Christian's High Priest, has duties that are in regard to the sinner who is already redeemed by His blood.

Under the law the duty of the high priest was to cleanse the redeemed nation of her sins:

"For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD" (Lev.16:30).​

The Lord Jesus is now the Christian's High Priest, and it is through Him that the Christian is cleansed from the sins which he commits after he has been redeeemed:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement forthe sins of the people" (Heb.2:17; NIV).​

"...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin...If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

 

[Door]

We've already been through all that Jerry, and I proved that you worship a goat god. A god that you crucify over and over again through your sacrifices of confession. You are NOT a Christian, but a demon-possessed pervert.

 

[voltaire]

Verse 5, john is speaking for himself and those with him. john says we(see above) declare a message to you(confused christians)which we(see above) have heard from him(the Father and Son). The message is that God is light and in him( God), is no darkness at all. verse 6 next post.

 

[voltaire]

Verse 6 Says: if we(see verses 1,2)say that we(see verses 1,2) have fellowship with him(God), and walk in darkness, we(see verses 1,2) lie and do not practice the truth. now this verse is obviously hypothetical. john cannot walk in darkness and john does practice the truth since john says in verse 3 that his fellowship is with the Father and the Son. by virtue of that fellowship, he cannot walk in darkness period, otherwise john would not be in fellowship with God.

 

[voltaire]

Verse 7 says : but if we(see verses 1,2) walk in the light as he( God) is in the light, we(see verses 1,2) have fellowship with one another , and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us(see verses 1,2) from all sin.
john is telling the confused christians that john and those with him, are cleansed from all sin by virtue of being in fellowship with God. he is not telling the confused christians that they must first be cleansed from all sins in order to be in fellowship with God, although that is a true statement. he is simply saying that john and those with him are cleansed from all sin just by the fact that john and those with him are in fellowship with God. here is a truth that can be applied to christians universally: if you are truly in fellowship with God, you can know for sure that you have been cleansed from all sins.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Verse 6 Says: if we(see verses 1,2)say that we(see verses 1,2) have fellowship with him(God), and walk in darkness, we(see verses 1,2) lie and do not practice the truth. now this verse is obviously hypothetical. john cannot walk in darkness and john does practice the truth since john says in verse 3 that his fellowship is with the Father and the Son. by virtue of that fellowship, he cannot walk in darkness period, otherwise john would not be in fellowship with God.

First of all, we are speaking about how verse 9 can be hypothetical.

You did not address that.

Secondly, it is merely your assertion that a believer cannot walk in darkness. I would say that Peter uses the term "blind" to refer to someone walking in darkness. After all, what would illustrate someone walking in darkness any better than someone walking as a blind man? Peter says the following to Christians:

"For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins" (2 Pet.1:8-9).​

Paul also tells the Christian not to have "fellowship with the works of darkness," which certainly implies that the Cristian can have fellowship with the works of darkness:

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Eph.5:11).​

If the Christian is having fellowship with the works of darkness it is inconceivable that he is not having fellowship with darkness. And it is certain that one who is walking in blindness is not walking in light.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We've already been through all that Jerry, and I proved that you worship a goat god. A god that you crucify over and over again through your sacrifices of confession. You are NOT a Christian, but a demon-possessed pervert.

First of all, you may have "been through all" of this with someone else, but not with me. And you certainly never proved that I worship a goat god.

You are showing your contempt of the divinely designed types. Since you have no answer to the different "types" which I have pointed out you revert to making statements which are not true in hope that no one will notice that you have no answers.

 

[voltaire]

Verses 6 and 7 were hypothetical and were telling the confused christians ways in which to determine if john and those with him were telling the truth and were in fellowship with God so that they could safely enjoy fellowship with john and those with him. he is telling the confused christians to not be in fellowship with those who walk in darkness(verse 6). he is telling the confused christians that it is Jests alone that cleanses from sin and no other way(gnosticism) in verse 7.

 

[Door]

"For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

Jerry, you have been given every verse in the NT that deal with darkness and light, and ALL of them refer to either being saved (light) or being lost (darkness).

The verse you quoted from 2 Peter 1:8-9 is actually speaking to believers who are blind to the truth that they HAVE BEEN forgiven of their sins. Christains can be blind to the truth, but you demonic doctrine that makes a leap from being blind of something to walking in darkness is absurd.

You have no leg to stand on. Your goat god is not going to save you. You are not hole, righteous, blameless, perfect, and in fellowship, in light, or in Christ because you make sacrifices of confession. You are a wicked evil person, and I feel sorry for anyone who knows you and is subject to you false gospel of self-righteousness.

 

[Door]

Here is a question that never received an answer...

Does Jesus cleanse us from sin if we walk in the light or by confessing them?