Do you believe in Eternal Security?
Eternal Security
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
Right Divider
Body part
Isn't there already a lengthy thread on this topic?
I'll start the ball rolling with:
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John 10:28's "they shall never perish"
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John 10:28's "they shall never perish"
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My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will
snatch them out of my hand."___John 10:27-28
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The particulars:
(1) Christ's sheep listen to His voice.
(2) Christ's sheep follow Him.
(3) Christ gives them eternal life.
(4) Christ's sheep shall never perish.
(5) Christ's sheep cannot be snatched out of His hand.
(6) No one can snatch them out of the Father's hand (John 10:29)
snatch them out of my hand."___John 10:27-28
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The particulars:
(1) Christ's sheep listen to His voice.
(2) Christ's sheep follow Him.
(3) Christ gives them eternal life.
(4) Christ's sheep shall never perish.
(5) Christ's sheep cannot be snatched out of His hand.
(6) No one can snatch them out of the Father's hand (John 10:29)
Right Divider
Body part
The body of Christ are not sheep. You need to rightly divide the Word of Truth.
I believe there was one before but I couldn't find it.
That's a fascinating perspective.
I'm curious about how you interpret the following verses?
Also curious about this:
How do you define the "body of Christ"?
The body of Christ is the Christian Church made up of all those who have accepted the Lord Jesus
as their Savior, and who follow Him, isn't it?
"That great Shepherd of the sheep"
Are you saying that the great shepherd of the sheep in Hebrews 13:20-21 does not refer/apply to the body of Christ?
The New Testament book of Hebrews is written to the body of Christ, isn't it?
The great Shepherd of the sheep equips the readers of the book of Hebrews with everything good for doing his will, doesn't it?
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Are you saying that the Chief Shepard (of the sheep implied) in 1 Peter 5:4 is not the Chief Shepherd of the body of Christ?
Are you saying that 1 Peter 5:4 was not written to the body of Christ?
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Are you saying that the good shepherd of John 10:11 is not the good shepherd of the sheep of the body of Christ?
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Are you saying that the sheep mentioned in John 10:16 are not the body of Christ?
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Are you saying that the good shepherd of the sheep in John 10:14-15 is not the good shepherd of the body of Christ?
Also this:
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When Jesus told Peter to "take care of my sheep" was He not referring to the saved who made up His body?
When Jesus told Peter to "Feed my sheep", was He not telling Peter to feed the saved who made up His body?
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Open your Bible to Hebrews, and in your response to me, write what it says the title of the Epistle to the Hebrews is.
Go through Paul's Epistles (hint: Hebrews was not written by Paul) and count how many times he refers to the Body of Christ as sheep.
Open to 1 Peter 1:1, and answer the following question:
Who is the DIASPORA, the Dispersion? That will tell you who Peter is writing to.
The Body of Christ did not exist until Paul.
How much clearer can scripture be?
But He answered and said, [JESUS]“I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”[/JESUS] - Matthew 15:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew15:24&version=NKJV
Right Divider
Body part
The myths of Churchianity are very convincing to too many.
I could be wrong but I do believe there is an aroma of Dispensationalism in the air.
2 Timothy 2:15 KJV (very old English, translated in the year 1611 if I recall correctly, 409 years ago)
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth."
"rightly dividing the word of truth"
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2 Timothy 2:15 NIV (a much clearer and more accurate translation)
"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed
and who correctly handles the word of truth."
"who correctly handles the word of truth"
Taking a look at the larger context of 2 Timothy chapter 2 verses 14 -18
we see the context of what Paul meant when he wrote "who correctly
handles the word of truth."
Here are some particulars in 2 Timothy 2: 14-18 and the reasons Paul said to "correctly handle the word of truth."
(1) so they could avoid godless chatter
(2) because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly
(3) because their teaching will spread like gangrene
(4) among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus who have lied and said the resurrection has already occurred
(5) because their lie destroys the faith of some
So?
So the context of 2 Timothy chapter 2 has nothing, absolutely nothing, to say about Dispensationalism.
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I note that the correct NIV translation of 2 Timothy 2:15 "who correctly handles the word of truth"
does not harmonize with Dispensationalism, whereas the 409 year old English of the King James
Version's "rightly dividing the word of truth" does harmonize with Dispensationalism, that is, the
"rightly DIVIDING" concept with it's emphasis on DIVIDING the dispensations one from the other.
I have no idea where all this is going? I don't even know if Dispensationalism is afoot in this thread"
Is Dispensationalism afoot in this thread?
This thread title is Do You Believe In Eternal Security? I offered to "start the ball rolling" with
John 10:28's "they shall never perish." I offered that ONLY to "start the ball rolling" and NOT
to argue either for or against Eternal Security.
I believe that a plausible (seeming reasonable or probable) case can be made by both the
Calvinists and the Armenians regarding Eternal Security. Some say that OSAS has been "beat
to death" in forum threads on the Internet. They obviously were incorrect.
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Right Divider
Body part
Only because that's what the Bible teaches.I could be wrong but I do believe there is an aroma of Dispensationalism in the air.
Yes. Until the second coming I have what Paul had, the hope of heaven. If I get there I will know without a doubt that I am eternally secure.
JAGG Wrote:
JudgeRightly Replied With:
Does your reply mean that you are answering my 2 questions up there with a No?
What is unclear is what are the conclusions you are drawing based upon Matthew 15:24?
JudgeRightly Replied With:
Does your reply mean that you are answering my 2 questions up there with a No?
What is unclear is what are the conclusions you are drawing based upon Matthew 15:24?
Right Divider
Body part
The body of Christ is never referred to as sheep. Paul never once calls the body of Christ sheep.
If you want to learn what Jesus meant when He referred to Israel as sheep, you need to study the prophets of Israel. An excellence place to look is Ezekiel 34.
I could be wrong but I do believe there is an aroma of Dispensationalism in the air.
Do you have an axe to grind against dispensationalism?
Well, no, the NIV is not a much clearer and more accurate translation.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
:think:
That's simply one translation.
Let's look at the actual word used:
| Strong's g3718 - Lexical: ὀρθοτομέω - Transliteration: orthotomeó - Part of Speech: Verb - Phonetic Spelling: or-thot-om-eh'-o - Definition: to cut straight; met: to handle correctly, teach rightly. - Origin: From a compound of orthos and the base of tomoteros, to make a straight cut, i.e. (figuratively) to dissect (expound) correctly (the divine message). - Usage: rightly divide. - Translated as (count): accurately handling (1). |
The definition is to teach the right thing.
While the verse does not directly mention "dispensations," it DOES reinforce the idea.
Teach the right thing. Don't teach the wrong thing.
The Bible teaches (that are relevant to this discussion) two dispensations, one of law, one of grace.
Prior to Paul was the dispensation of law, in which God gave to Moses (dispensed) the Law. This dispensation which God gave to Paul was of grace.
Paul says to rightly divide. That means that one needs to determine what he should take as advice to him, and what was meant for others, but which he can learn from.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
See above.
The term "dispensation" (and thus, dispensationalism) comes from a greek word used in the Bible, "oikonomia," (also where we get our word "economy" from) which means "house rules" (oikos = house; nomos = rules or law).
If you are a dispensationalist, then you (might) recognize that there are different house rules for Israel than there are for the Body of Christ, which is what the Bible teaches.
To the first question:
| When Jesus told Peter to "take care of my sheep" was He not referring to the saved who made up His body? |
Jesus was not referring to something that at that time did not exist.
To the second question:
| When Jesus told Peter to "Feed my sheep", was He not telling Peter to feed the saved who made up His body? |
This is a loaded question that assumes that Jesus was talking about "the saved" when He mentioned sheep.
I reject that premise, and so reject the question.
When Jesus told Peter to feed His sheep, He was referring to Israel, who were under the covenant of law, which they had to keep if they wanted to be a part of the coming Kingdom.
They were not "saved" until they died and ONLY IF they had kept the law.
The conclusion is exactly what scripture says. That Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
He was not sent for gentiles, to whom Paul was sent to preach the gospel of grace, under which there is no difference between Jew or gentile.
Jesus was making a distinction between Jew and Gentile, whereas Paul's gospel made NO distinction, because the sheep of Israel are a nation, but the Body of Christ is an organism, not a nation.
Right Divider
Body part
Not rightly dividing is one of the prime reasons for division and arguments in the Christian world.
My view is "sheep" and "body of Christ" are synonyms and metaphors . . . explained further below . . .
The word "sheep" and the "body of Christ" are metaphors (figurative language) for (1) through (13) down below:
And they are also synonyms for (1) through (13) below
synonym - a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language
The words "sheep" and "body of Christ" are metaphors and synonyms for the following:
(1) Christians
(2) True believers
(3) The Christian Church
(4) True followers
(5) The assembly of God
(6) The bride of Christ
(7) The household of God
(8) The bride of the Lamb
(9) The congregation of the righteous
(10) The saints
(11) The people of God
(12) The sheep
(13) The body of Christ
Nowhere in the New Testament does the text say that there is a difference in (1) through (13) up there.
(1) Christians
(2) True believers
(3) The Christian Church
(4) True followers
(5) The assembly of God
(6) The bride of Christ
(7) The household of God
(8) The bride of the Lamb
(9) The congregation of the righteous
(10) The saints
(11) The people of God
(12) The sheep
(13) The body of Christ
Nowhere in the New Testament does the text say that there is a difference in (1) through (13) up there.
My view is this: It is unnecessary to give special focus and special emphasis to the concepts
of "sheep" and "body of Christ."
My view is that the New Testament does NOT provide any warrant for doing that.
Right Divider
Body part
That is completely incorrect.
Paul is the only writer of scripture that uses the figure of speech "the body of Christ" or the "church, which is His body". In addition, Paul never ONCE refers to believers are sheep.
Scripture clearly identifies the "sheep" as Israel. Ezekiel 34 is extremely clear on this issue.