Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Prove it. You talk big but talk is cheap.
Theology Club: Evidence that the Present Dispensation Began at Acts 9?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Prove it. You talk big but talk is cheap.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Maybe Danoh is "all hat and no horse"?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Since you understand that salvation has always been by grace then how can you explain the teaching within the Neo-MAD camp that declares that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works?
Are you not even aware that if it is of works then it cannot be of grace:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).
In fact, in the same chapter Paul made it plain that David, who lived under the law, was saved apart from works:
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).
If you are not aware of these foundational truths then your growth has been stunted. You need to flee the teaching which comes out of the Neo-MAD community.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
All hat and no ranch!
glorydaz
Well-known member
So when Jerry says the Jews that "lived under the law" are saved by faith only, does that make any sense to you? It seems to me, a person is under the schoolmaster or NOT.
Galatians 3:24-26
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Once again you prove that you are ignorant of the principles of being saved by grace. Here we see that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
You still do not know the principle that if it is of works then it cannot be said to be by grace:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).
I showed you this just the other day but evidently it is above you meager understanding and it will always be above your meager understanding:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).
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Right Divider
Body part
So you want me to read someone else's mind?
I've already shown you that I do understand this. You have a real comprehension problem.
Why do you insist on falsely associating me with this belief?
Are you overly zealous and willing to falsely accuse?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Great....you've proven I'm ignorant. I'll admit that, and you can move right along proving you are. :banana:
whitestone
Well-known member
lol.duhh,,the avatar would have given it away unless they just did not know,,,in another place and time you also were jerryshu and baptist are you still?,,,
whitestone
Well-known member
lol,no actually the verse is the preterits go to in defense of one Gospel/ect. you must feel fairly confident in being able to preach the sermon from the inside of the box out to even mention it,,,
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What is your point, if you actually have one?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why do you think that I will prove that I am ignorant since I was the one who corrected what you said here?:
You must not understand the simple principles in regard to being saved by grace. Here we see that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
You still do not know the principle that if it is of works then it cannot be said to be by grace:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).
Why do you continue to argue that the Jews could not be saved apart from works despite the fact that they were saved by grace through faith.
Now answer a simple question for me:
Were the Jews who lived under the law saved by faith apart from works?
To agree with Jerry is to affirm he has been right to hound after others attempting to force his view on them all these decades.
The issue is not whether he is right or wrong in his beliefs but that he is dead wrong in what he has done with it.
Think about that a minute; that is what he has done with what he believes is the truth; hounded after others for decades now; attempting to shame and or force it on them.
Meaning; to prove him wrong, if he is, would only arm him with the actual truth, for him to hound after others with, should he embrace having been proven wrong.
There is no wining this that he believes is about winning.
In other words, to engage this mini, would be, bully of a pope at all, is for more others to have to suffer him all over again, for who knows how much longer.
There is your dead horse, people. There is your nut, in a nutshell.
The issue is not whether he is right or wrong in his beliefs but that he is dead wrong in what he has done with it.
Think about that a minute; that is what he has done with what he believes is the truth; hounded after others for decades now; attempting to shame and or force it on them.
Meaning; to prove him wrong, if he is, would only arm him with the actual truth, for him to hound after others with, should he embrace having been proven wrong.
There is no wining this that he believes is about winning.
In other words, to engage this mini, would be, bully of a pope at all, is for more others to have to suffer him all over again, for who knows how much longer.
There is your dead horse, people. There is your nut, in a nutshell.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You couldn't care less about what the Scriptures reveal.
All you care is getting back at me because I demonstrated that you are wrong when you say that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.
Your idea cannot possibly be right because the words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law in the following verse contradict your idea:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
The very moment when the Jews who lived under the law "believed" they were saved. It was His words which saved those same Jews, as witnessed by these words He spoke to them:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
whitestone
Well-known member
lol,Jerry if I offend you with anything I ask or say it is not my intention to do so,so if I do,I do apologize. In the many years past I and several of my friends were very excited when the internet first began,not as much so now as in the beginning.
At first my instinct was that this would be great,that is it is actually a format where different people(Christians) of different manners of thinking could actually begin to discuss the scriptures in a more precise manner. At first the internet wasn't an environment that was a lot of help,but I think it has also come a long way in the matter now in 2015.
Now I say this because I have read post from you and others both here and in other forums dating back to the late 90's(a few from then are here in this forum),others no,but I've also followed them in other forums where I never became a member but just read through their post.
The point was always to get to the "true,true truth",I think from following your post for this length of time(2003-4 to present) that this is what you also are after. I when I was young saw so many different denominations around me that I really just thought that I didn't really care which one was the truth(no need to call mine own self anything other than Christian),but I don't have an name that I live other than Christian. So I was always just watching to see who actually knew the truth.
I think it's all in the foggy grey areas in most peoples eschatology where this begins to expose its own self in that they can solve most of the puzzle but not the whole puzzle. This also has its limits I note in that even though the mystery is revealed as we know there remains some that we do not yet know Hebrews 9:5 KJV but then not even the angels were given all, Daniel 10:21 KJV
I again had no intention of being rude if I seemed that way I apologize. I suppose after following along with peoples postings for so many years I do find that I make post as if they would understand that I had been following along the whole while when at times I may never post from the beginning of a thread to the end.,,,,it just made me wonder why you chose that particular verse,lol I am have a disp. opinion mine own self and would not have to cut down on the other camps rebuttals (so I wont mention it again),,,it just made me wonder where you were going with that particular verse,,it made me think "ahhh,he see's it or he wouldn't have brought it up",,,but I'll just watch and see where you take the rest of your thread,,,
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I chose it to tell you what was being preached to the Jews prior to the time when Paul began preaching a different gospel to the Gentiles.
Check out post #27 on this thread.
whitestone
Well-known member
Jerry how can someone be offered something "first" and then it be given to someone else "second" unless they are the "same thing"?,,,,but as dispies we rather see them as "two things"?,,,
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Good news (gospel) was given to the Jews first but the "good news" (gospel) which was given to the Gentiles afterwards was not the same "good news."
whitestone
Well-known member
Then the Gospel given in Acts 13:46 KJV to the Jews (first) then is not the same as the one that was given to the gentiles and so then it is not correct to say that it is given to someone else (second/gentiles),because if it is the same there is one Gospel and not two.
Again if there are two then the 12 and the 3000 who believed,and the 70,and those who believed in the first Gospel are of those who believed in the first and then not of the body of Christ as sir Anderson said.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Sir Robert Anderson said no such thing. Just because someone is saved by the first gospel does not mean that later they cannot become members of the Body of Christ.
At one time Apollos was a believer "knowing only the baptism of John":
"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John" (Acts 18:24-25).
But later, after Aquila and Priscilla had "expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly" (v.26) we see Paul saying that Apollos watered what he had planted and they are both "one":
"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one" (1 Cor.3:5-8).
Apollos was watering what Paul had planted because both were members of the Body of Christ and both were ministering to those in the Body of Christ. It is inconceivable that Apollos was not a member of the Body of Christ since Paul says that "he that planteth and he that watereth are one."
So even though a person might have been saved by believing the first gospel that does not hinder that person from becoming a member of the Body of Christ.