Fountains of the Great Deep
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1Way
+OL remote satellite affiliate
Stratnerd – You said
Certainly there are more factors to consider, and your factor is an interesting one. Failure at the cell’s ability to reproduce is a deadly problem. So where do we get more of these telomeres?
You haven’t considered things like genetic disorders, metabolism rates such as, oxygen absorption, nutrition absorption, cellular rates of all it’s life sustaining activities, if any aspect of our ability to sustain life is diminished, then it would be natural for our life spans to diminish as well. For example, with it the circulatory system was superior than it is today, if their heart rate was 40 instead of 80 on average, their heart alone may increase their life expectancy dramatically. If you lungs absorb 30 percent less oxygen each breath, then such a deficiency would also explain an altered life span. How about nutrition absorbtion, what if their bodies had to work half as hard to get the same nutrients, what about the cellular activity, what if it operated at twice the efficiency, etc. etc. etc. Combine all these factors and it is not hard to imagine that the life span changed due to all the functions in the body working at less and less from their optimum design efficiency.
Certainly there are more factors to consider, and your factor is an interesting one. Failure at the cell’s ability to reproduce is a deadly problem. So where do we get more of these telomeres?
Stratnerd
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I have considered these things but telomeres appears to contrain the upper limit of life spans. So all those things can get you close to that max.
there are people, like my aunt (rides ~ 50 miles/week and teaches aerobics 2x/week and she's 54!) that have a resting heart rates of 50. However, I would be shocked if she lived over 100. In fact, the oldest people today were not workout freaks but appear to be "normal" people. Were circulatory systems better in the past? I would need some sort of evidence. We know we've had agriculture and that has settled people down for the past 10,000 years or so.
this seems another testable hypothesis... people at low altitudes absorb less oxygen but I don't think these people are living much older either.
these all seem testable but none of the people I can think off live much longer than 100.
we don't that's probably why we die! So you might wonder, how do we reproduce if cell division is the way we reproduce? Good question, and humans solve it two ways (1) there is some repair and (2) almost immediately after the first few cell divisions after fertilization, some cells in females will stop dividing. Most cells during development go on dividing and dividing making millions of cells but those cells stop. If you're a female those are the cells that end up in the ovary and they stay arrested until puberty. The final cell division doesn't occur until AFTER fertilization then the mature ovum splits off three cells (polar bodies)... but anyways, they get around the cell division thing by not dividing.
Although it might be true that dirty ice falling from the sky might look like wind blown silt when it settles, I would suspect we'll find it doesn't. I know Dr. Brown doesn't say the Mammoths were in water laid sediment, but there is water laid sediment below the wind blown sediment, so they *should* be in water laid sediment
Also, the flood waters were warm. And when the whole ocean is one big piece, then it's hard to localize a temperature.
How many Mammoths have we found standing up? 3? For the millions we know were there? I'd say if it was an instant freeze, it would have gotten many more that we have found. I'm just speculating, but I think my idea is in line with common sense with what we know so far.
First, instant freezing is not necessary for the results we see today. The Buttercups in the mouths of the Mammoths are between the teeth, or at least already chewed, and the contents of an elephants stomach don't decay the same way they would in a human. An elephant like creature found in Florida (a Mastodon?) still had recognizable stomach contents. I think Dr. Brown is creating his whole theory based on the instant freezing because that is the component he thinks is necessary that evolutionists cannot answer. I'd say the evidence will speak otherwise when the latest (relatively) full carcass is has it's full report published.
Because to get that kind of tonnage of ivory you need millions of Mammoths, and to get millions of Mammoths you need 100-400 years.
Then we'd find more of them standing frozen, and this ice dump region would be a veritable picture of pre-flood earth. It isn't.
Yes, the flood would have melted all the ice in the first place, and secondly the ice in the north pole is floating. The ice in the ice dump would have floated, too. It couldn't have survived.
BTW, we know the oceans were warm and the continents were relatively cold after the flood, because there was an ice age after the flood.
Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.
I'm not saying that many Mammoths are direct evidence of a post flood freezing. I am saying that we know there were lots of Mammoths and what we should be seeing, because of that fact, should be different if Dr. Brown's theory were true. What we do find is evidence that is consistant with many Mammoths and a post-flood ice age.
taxpayerslavery
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ThePhy
Long life spans must be accounted for when considering the Biblical account for creation, because Biblical account says that there were long life spans.
COMPUTER ANALYSIS AND PROOFS THAT GOD, THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS, DID (In Fact) WRITE THE 66 BOOKS OF THE HOLY BIBLE.
http://www.freewebs.com/genuineprofit/proof.html
If there were long life spans before a flood, which destroyed the earth as it was, how would you establish the fact?
Since life span is considered to be something which runs in a family, it seems obvious to me that genetics are directly related to longevity, and so the mutation of genetics can change it, whether or not science can explain how.
I have not yet listened to Bob Enyart's show #32, so maybe this has been addressed.
Heaven 1 = sky
Heaven 2 = space
Heaven 3 = where God is
Long life spans must be accounted for when considering the Biblical account for creation, because Biblical account says that there were long life spans.
The core element in developing theories around the Biblical account of world history, is the assumption that the Bible is the word of God and is; therefore, accurate. This assumption makes collaborating records from other sources evidence, and the lack of collaborating records from other sources, irrelevant, because they are not God's word and therefore can be in error. Every flight of imagination does not become fair game for research because if it isn't in the Bible, specifically or indirectly, it is probably not important.
The scientific indications for long life span, is that the Bible records long life spans and, unlike any other book on earth, was written by an intelligence far greater than man's.
COMPUTER ANALYSIS AND PROOFS THAT GOD, THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS, DID (In Fact) WRITE THE 66 BOOKS OF THE HOLY BIBLE.
http://www.freewebs.com/genuineprofit/proof.html
If there were long life spans before a flood, which destroyed the earth as it was, how would you establish the fact?
Since life span is considered to be something which runs in a family, it seems obvious to me that genetics are directly related to longevity, and so the mutation of genetics can change it, whether or not science can explain how.
I have not yet listened to Bob Enyart's show #32, so maybe this has been addressed.
The Bible talks about 3 heavens.
Heaven 1 = sky
Heaven 2 = space
Heaven 3 = where God is
The Hebrew word for firmament here in verse 20, is the same Hebrew word used in verses 7 and 8. Since birds do not fly in dirt, I suspect that the firmament must be heaven 1, the atmosphere. Since verse 7 talks about water above the firmament/sky, I think there must have been some form of water above the sky.
Faith based on being wowed by numbers
Faith based on being wowed by numbers
From taxpayerslavery:
From a scientific viewpoint, I see little difference in these accounts than I do in the wonderful things that happen to Harry Potter. Admittedly, the Harry Potter accounts do not claim to be of divine origin, but science does not assign credibility based on claims of the author, but on the existence or absence of supporting evidence.
The derivation of a fantastically improbable result at the end of the article reminded me of a meeting I attended just a few months ago. It detailed a decades-long on-site study in a foreign land that investigated an incredible string of details in a particular (non-Biblical) religious document. The end result was similar to the one you referenced - that it would be ludicrous to conclude anything other than the absolute divine accuracy of the document. Unless I am seriously mistaken, you would abjectly refuse to admit the correctness of the religion that gave birth to that document.
Faith based on being wowed by numbers
From taxpayerslavery:
Your approach opens up new vistas for science to undertake. Not only should the actual fact of exceptional life spans in the OT be studied, but so should an analysis of when snakes ceased being able to talk (Gen 3:1). It appears that mules as well have mysteriously lost the ability to converse in English (Num 22:30). Unless you consider a Boeing 747 as being a chariot as referenced in 2 King 2:11, then there are new vistas of aeronautics as yet undiscovered. I have watched some pretty impressive magic tricks, but almost invariably the observer of a magic show cannot examine the props or the performance too carefully lest the deception be discovered. Would a close-up scientific examination of the staff in Exodus 4:2 confirm that was wood at one moment, and a reptile a moment later? How to study the progress of battles based on the ability of a leader to hold his arm up, and the ability to divide oceans by waving sticks near them? The list goes on and on.
From a scientific viewpoint, I see little difference in these accounts than I do in the wonderful things that happen to Harry Potter. Admittedly, the Harry Potter accounts do not claim to be of divine origin, but science does not assign credibility based on claims of the author, but on the existence or absence of supporting evidence.
Are you aware that some people, upon seeing studies such as these, have applied similar techniques to other large volumes? If you start with just a willingness to assign exceptional meaning to highly improbable occurrences of letters or numbers in a book, then you must add Moby Dick, War and Peace, and Macbeth to your library of sacred works.
The derivation of a fantastically improbable result at the end of the article reminded me of a meeting I attended just a few months ago. It detailed a decades-long on-site study in a foreign land that investigated an incredible string of details in a particular (non-Biblical) religious document. The end result was similar to the one you referenced - that it would be ludicrous to conclude anything other than the absolute divine accuracy of the document. Unless I am seriously mistaken, you would abjectly refuse to admit the correctness of the religion that gave birth to that document.
Excellent question. The most direct way would be to find written records from that era confirming the long lives. Things such as the span of time a King ruled are commonly found. Remember the areas in which the Bible was written were not the only ones that left things that can be studied. As I mentioned in my previous post, records from Far Eastern cultures must be admitted as evidence, or else those people were immune from the healthy long-life influences. I would also expect that specialists in relevant sciences could come with suggestions that I am not aware of. Would there be discernable anthropological differences, such as in the bones, or in the artifacts? If we postulate some very definitive scientific factors, such as changes in harmful radiation from space, then that should have influence on a multitude of life forms, not just man. If the problem is that the first men had a very pure genetic makeup, and that mans genetic makeup is slowly becoming more corrupted, then a similar corruption should be in evidence across the plant and animal kingdom. And what is the scientific reason that man quickly went from nearly a thousand year life span to a bit under a hundred years? Why didn't the slide keep on going?
I note your ad-hoc redefinition of what might be called heaven. You certainly may assign such meanings to the word, but I am then obligated to remember that when you speak of heaven, you are using a term with a broad range of meanings. Not very conducive to clear communication.
Too bad the life forms (like birds) in Genesis appear in a different order than that found in another record of the creation – the fossils. Was God not also recording the history in the rocks – which do not lie – in addition to the imperfect records penned by men?
taxpayerslavery
New member
ThePhy
It seems as though I am talking with a child. You make yourself appear dim witted when the proposition of a supernatural being is made and you are unable to analyze observations from that point of view. It appears as though your opinion on the supernatural should be ignored because it is beyond your comprehension.
Hint: No other book in the world has this phenomena.
As far as history according to rocks, you must first calibrate observation with the fact that the earth, and universe, is 6,000 years old. Once this calibration is made, levels of argon at the time of creation and the effect of the world wide flood etc., can be determined. Whatever good that will do for anybody.
The existence of a super natural being does not break any law of science, but the supernatural being can do things which science cannot explain. They are called miracles. It is probably a waste of time to analyze miracles from a natural point of view. What difference would it make to analyze the wine created by Jesus from water. Donkeys speak when it suits God for them to do so and whales take people to where Gods want them to be (Jonah), that was one of the points of God telling us about the accounts. Chariots of fire are easy for a being who created the whole universe. I.E., all of creation can be altered to suit God whenever He wants.
It seems as though I am talking with a child. You make yourself appear dim witted when the proposition of a supernatural being is made and you are unable to analyze observations from that point of view. It appears as though your opinion on the supernatural should be ignored because it is beyond your comprehension.
The difference is that Harry Potter is simply a book written by a sinful person, the Bible was written by God through the hand of man.
OOPS!, You obviously didn't read the web page.
Hint: No other book in the world has this phenomena.
The slide is still going. We are counteracting it with modern medicine. The 'genetic corruption shorter life span effect' seems to have a curve such as capacitor being charged through a resistor.
"ad hoc", that is the best description, of the evolution story, I have ever heard.
So, the scientific method is an impromptu - make it up as you go along - method in itself. Compare that with God's word. :chuckle:
Evolution is an ad hoc theory for the specific purpose of trying to explain the origin life without the need for God. To put it another way, it denies God the glory for his creation for those who are at enmity with God. :nono:
OOPS! The fossil record is a record of the way animals sink and the get covered by sediment during a world wide flood. The bones of animals which died above ground don't get fossilized, they disintegrate due to exposure.
As far as history according to rocks, you must first calibrate observation with the fact that the earth, and universe, is 6,000 years old. Once this calibration is made, levels of argon at the time of creation and the effect of the world wide flood etc., can be determined. Whatever good that will do for anybody.
From taxpayerslavery:
From ThePhy (previously):
I fail to see any difference between talking donkeys and snakes and 900 year life spans. The claim that each actually happened emanates from the same document - the Bible. Can you provide independent evidence of any of these? If not, on what basis do you assign some things to the category of miracles, and others as having a natural basis in science?
If you feel that my comments are childish, then feel free to ignore them. There are others who do not share your simplistic dismissal of the issues I mention.
So you believe. I do not share your evaluation of the divinity of the Bible. And where things that are claimed in the Bible can be subjected to scientific scrutiny, I find some serious disagreements.
Hint - And no other book in the world matches the incredible coincidences that can be found in those other truly divinely inspired volumes I mentioned. That is proof positive they are of God.
From ThePhy (previously):
From taxpayerslavery:
I did a brief review – and found the biblical lifespans shortened less precipitously than my I had thought. Point conceded (that the biblical timelines evidence an asymptotic decay).
I don’t mind you using this label for evolution. Somehow I don’t find a single documented study in evolution that is any less true by virtue of such labels.
I think your itemized steps in the scientific method are well-stated. But using the phrase “make it up” carries the implication that it differs little from places where “making it up” is accurate – as in works of pure fiction. Your list specifically says that the new hypothesis is “consistent with what you have observed”. That is materially different from just “making it up”. Since you like to append smiley figures to emphasize the difference between your distorted characterization of “making it up” and “God’s Word”, you surely will not mind if I snicker at stories of talking snakes, talking donkeys, flying flaming chariots, decaying human bodies rising and walking around, prophets sending bears to rip apart the bodies of rude children, standing on a high place from which you can observe the whole earth, etc. etc.
Evolution, when approached as pure science, is not concerned with whether it supports or disproves God. I am sure you are aware there are a number of fully-qualified evolutionists who are also humble and dedicated Christians. I wonder about the fundamental honesty of those who refuse to concede any evidence for evolution simply because they feel it would be in conflict with their theology. Is the fiction then the evolutionary record as found in nature, or in the self-imposed blindness of those who shut their eyes to the evidence from nature?
I suspect floods may be one mechanism that could entrap an animal in such a way that it would fossilize. But I challenge you to show that it is the only mechanism. And if you postulate the Noachian flood as the primary flood that did this, then can you provide explanations for the observed sorting of the fossils? Specifically, why some layers of strata that contains fossils from long ago never have other fossils from a later epoch intermixed, or in strata below them?
You are doing a religious calibration. I prefer to insulate myself from religiously derived conclusions and see where the science itself leads. If your religious record is right, and science is conducted correctly, I would expect it to give the same answer the Bible gives. So for the age of the earth, rather than starting with a desired answer (6000 years), how about figuring out what reliable dating evidences can be found in nature? Can you show that impartial science also supports the 6000 year timeline?
taxpayerslavery
New member
Gerald
Considering . . . . . I am indirectly in the BIble, under the heading of man who is created in God's image, just like you.
(easy copy and paste)
I'm sure you know what conclusion to draw... :thumb:
Considering . . . . . I am indirectly in the BIble, under the heading of man who is created in God's image, just like you.
(easy copy and paste)
I'm sure you know what conclusion to draw... :thumb:
taxpayerslavery
New member
ThePhy
Example:
Part of the Evolutionist explanation of how the earth was formed: Hot molten blob for thousands of years.
OOPS! Doesn't coincide with the observational evidence, but they don't update their theory, they cling to wishful thinking.
Polonium Halos: Unrefuted Evidence for Earth's Instant Creation!
http://www.halos.com/
Compare the observational FACTS with evolutionist OPINIONS about how fossils should be after a world wide flood or guesses about how old the universe is when they have no way of knowing how God made it look in the first place.
It is not a religious calibration if it is true. If an unequivocal expert told you a fact that was actually true, and the facts they divulged allowed science to calibrate its instruments, it wouldn't matter if the expert was God or man, the calibration would be a matter of science.
I notice that you ask if science supports the 6000 year timeline, and you didn't say proves it. We both know why, science can't prove it either way, i.e. impartial science can support either and is therefore useless for proving to you that God exists. My understanding of God, as he presents Himself in the Bible, is that this is on purpose so that those people who are hell bent on dismissing Him, pun intended, will be able to do so.
The Bible claims that there is a God and that this God occasionally does supernatural acts called miracles. I would call something a miracle if it is a supernatural event, such as Lazarus walking out of the tomb after being dead for more than 2 days and starting to stink. The Bible has a perfect track record of historical accuracy for anything which can be checked out. Things which you don't say check out, such as the fossil record as it is being the result of the great flood 4450 years ago, are a matter of opinion and not scientific fact. You are the person requiring independent evidence for the accounts in the Bible, so you provide it. I suspect that you will not be able to prove it or disprove it, which makes the claim in the Bible, scientifically unknown and therefore a matter of faith. You have your faith, and I have mine. I choose mine because the Bible has a better track record of historic accounts matching scientific observation than pseudo science that tries to exclude God like evolution.
Example please.
Your show your faith in the belief that miracles don't happen and you are tipping your hand that you cannot consider historic events from the valid point of view that there may have been a creator. This discredits your opinion on the subject.
The evolutionist would appear much more credible if they actually based their statements on observation rather than wishful thinking. At least the creationists don't observational facts which disprove the creation account.
Example:
Part of the Evolutionist explanation of how the earth was formed: Hot molten blob for thousands of years.
OOPS! Doesn't coincide with the observational evidence, but they don't update their theory, they cling to wishful thinking.
Polonium Halos: Unrefuted Evidence for Earth's Instant Creation!
http://www.halos.com/
Compare the observational FACTS with evolutionist OPINIONS about how fossils should be after a world wide flood or guesses about how old the universe is when they have no way of knowing how God made it look in the first place.
Don't fool yourself into thinking that the faith scientists have in evolution is not religious. Evolution is the story of origins for the religion of secular humanism (faith that God doesn't exist as much as the Biblical creation account is the story of origins for Jewish and Christian religions. They can't both be true, and science has never disproved the Biblical account. At least the Biblical account claims to be from God who never is wrong. Compare that with evolution which is a story made up by fallible man. Also, anybody who claims to be a Christian but believe that the earth is millions of years old, does not believe that the Bible was written by God because the creation account cannot be made to fit the old earth model.
It is not a religious calibration if it is true. If an unequivocal expert told you a fact that was actually true, and the facts they divulged allowed science to calibrate its instruments, it wouldn't matter if the expert was God or man, the calibration would be a matter of science.
I notice that you ask if science supports the 6000 year timeline, and you didn't say proves it. We both know why, science can't prove it either way, i.e. impartial science can support either and is therefore useless for proving to you that God exists. My understanding of God, as he presents Himself in the Bible, is that this is on purpose so that those people who are hell bent on dismissing Him, pun intended, will be able to do so.
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taxpayerslavery
New member
Gerald
Important enough for God to send His only begotten Son as a free gift of salvation for those who are willing to accept it.
:bannana: :bannana: :bannana:
See The Passion of Christ to get an idea of God's sacrafice.
Important enough for God to send His only begotten Son as a free gift of salvation for those who are willing to accept it.
:bannana: :bannana: :bannana:
See The Passion of Christ to get an idea of God's sacrafice.
Gerald
Resident Fiend
You'll understand if I am profoundly unmoved. Not that I have any problem with Jesus; it is his followers whom I find insufferable...
In any case, anyone who would throw his life away on my account will get no gratitude from me.
Yes, TPS, I really am that hard-hearted.
No, thanks. I already know how it ends. I'll not spend good money on a 2-hour snuff film.
taxpayerslavery
New member
Gerald
Have you heard this one?
We have a song we sing at church, and it goes like this;
One day every tonge will confess you are Lord (owner)
One day every knee will bow
Still the greatest pleasure remians for those
Who Gladly choose you now :thumb:
Someday Gerald . . . . . someday you too will confess 'The Lord Jesus Christ'. You may as well do it before you die so it will do you some good, eternally speaking.
Have you heard this one?
We have a song we sing at church, and it goes like this;
One day every tonge will confess you are Lord (owner)
One day every knee will bow
Still the greatest pleasure remians for those
Who Gladly choose you now :thumb:
Someday Gerald . . . . . someday you too will confess 'The Lord Jesus Christ'. You may as well do it before you die so it will do you some good, eternally speaking.
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Can someone give me the name and contact info for any geologist or oceanographer who has published anything in any peer reviewed journal which supports this fountains of the deep, creation of the Himalya's, sudden movement of crustal plates, water springing up from the mid oceean ridge all within the last 4500 years etc. stuff. Thanks
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