Freak now promotes limited atonement!

[intro2faith]

Why didn't you ignore it? What makes you better than them that you were able to say 'yes' to Jesus, while they become stubborn and say no?

Saved people are not better than anyone else. We just chose to take the gift Jesus offered us. For example:

Aunt Linda had two presents set out under the Christmas tree. One was for Billy, one was for Tom. Billy chose to take the gift, Tom chose not to.

Now, just because Billy decided to take the gift does not mean he is better than Tom. He just took the gift that was offered to him freely.

That was a crude example, but hopefully you get the point.

 

[Z Man]

Saved people are not better than anyone else. We just chose to take the gift Jesus offered us. For example:

Aunt Linda had two presents set out under the Christmas tree. One was for Billy, one was for Tom. Billy chose to take the gift, Tom chose not to.

Now, just because Billy decided to take the gift does not mean he is better than Tom. He just took the gift that was offered to him freely.

That was a crude example, but hopefully you get the point.

Here's a better example:

Two people are in jail on death row. A man comes by and says they could go; they've been set free. One guy 'believes' and chooses to leave. The other thinks it's all a hoax and stays until his death.

The one who left was 'saved' because he left. In the same manner, if salvation is left up to us to decide, then it becomes something we do; something we can say that we attributed to. If every single person on this planet has the same opportunity to choose, then those that do choose Christ have something to boast about in their salvation.

 

[drbrumley]

Z,

You need to get grounded in the word dude.

 

[Z Man]

Z,

You need to get grounded in the word dude.

Ask, and you shall receive.

The Bible clearly teaches us that no man can go to God of their own will:


John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Romans 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Ephesians 2:1, 4-5, 8-9
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins...

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)...

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.


Titus 3:3-7
For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


2 Corinthians 4:6
For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


Acts 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


Romans 3:11
There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.




And I can go on, and on, and on... This should be enough for you to chew on a while....

 

[intro2faith]

Here's a better example:

Two people are in jail on death row. A man comes by and says they could go; they've been set free. One guy 'believes' and chooses to leave. The other thinks it's all a hoax and stays until his death.

The one who left was 'saved' because he left. In the same manner, if salvation is left up to us to decide, then it becomes something we do; something we can say that we attributed to. If every single person on this planet has the same opportunity to choose, then those that do choose Christ have something to boast about in their salvation.

Why would someone brag about getting a gift? It's not like they earned it or anything. Bragging about your salvation is not a Christlike thing to do. Period.

 

[Z Man]

Why would someone brag about getting a gift? It's not like they earned it or anything. Bragging about your salvation is not a Christlike thing to do. Period.

Maybe not, but if you had the same opportunity to receive salvation just as much as someone who rejected it, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT to brag. Not that you should, or would, but the possibility exists there. Not to mention, it dismisses Christ's sacrifice as the actual event that saved us. Instead, it becomes our 'choice' that really saves us. With our choice, we rob some of the glory from God.

 

[JCAtheist]

Obviously, you must be a young Christian, or one with some tremendous doubt issues. There is no need to debate with someone as fragile as you.

How totally prideful and arrogant of you. Yeah..I'm a 'young Christian' . believe what you will, you will anyway, no matter what God says. And you can't debate me, you're - in your own vernacular - and idiot

Get over yourself you pig headed jerk. It's people like you that drive people FROM coming to learn about God.. Oh wait, they don't need to.. God already called them, and they don't need to do a thing about it.

By their fruits shall we know them.. and you sure do display some fruits..


Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.


Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.


Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


You bring sour fruits.. not good.. according to scripture you are corrupt.

You are spiritually discerned by your words and actions in your posts. And not one of these have I seen in your posts..


Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


In fact, you have no need of faith..you consider yourself 'elected'.. I think the only thing you are 'elected' for, is a shock



Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


I don't think the kind of fruit being spoken about in that pasage is the kind you are producing.


Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.


I pray you will be judged by God a whole lot better than you judge others. As of right now, you aren't worth the effort to correct, IMHO.. of course. However, if you can learn to seal up your pride, and stop craning your neck and looking down at others, please do feel free to give me a shout, braggart.


Love and Peace

JCAtheist

 

[Jauchzer]

You act as if man deserves God's favor.

No, man does not deserve God's favor. Not a single man does, and it is illogical that the Creator, who took on flesh and took on the debt of sin and died for all of mankind, would select a portion of the undeserving and force that group to come to Him in faith and receive His grace, while predestining the rest to go to Hell.

 

[Z Man]

No, man does not deserve God's favor. Not a single man does, and it is illogical that the Creator, who took on flesh and took on the debt of sin and died for all of mankind, would select a portion of the undeserving and force that group to come to Him in faith and receive His grace

Is that a bad thing, that God save people???

...while predestining the rest to go to Hell.

Don't people deserve to go there? You said it yourself:

No, man does not deserve God's favor. Not a single man does...

 

[Jauchzer]

Is that a bad thing, that God save people???

Don't people deserve to go there? You said it yourself:

No, man does not deserve God's favor. Not a single man does...

A hypothetical situation. Some people are drowning. Not one of them has done anything to deserve my mercy. Yet, I pay the price for a huge boat which is large enough to save every drowning person. I go to the drowning people. I select a few and rescue them from the sea. Some deny my existance or hate me, and refuse to get on the boat, and die. Others are swimming toward me, pleading to be brought aboard, but I turn my boat around and abandon them to perish.

Have I acted correctly? Should I not save every person who will join me on my boat?

 

[Z Man]

A hypothetical situation. Some people are drowning. Not one of them has done anything to deserve my mercy. Yet, I pay the price for a huge boat which is large enough to save every drowning person. I go to the drowning people. I select a few and rescue them from the sea. Some deny my existance or hate me, and refuse to get on the boat, and die. Others are swimming toward me, pleading to be brought aboard, but I turn my boat around and abandon them to perish.

Have I acted correctly? Should I not save every person who will join me on my boat?

No one believes that God turns away those who beleive in Him. I simply believe that the Bible teaches man cannot, nor will not, nor have the desire to believe in God on their own. He has to change our hearts before we cry out to Him for salvation.

 

[Jauchzer]

No one believes that God turns away those who beleive in Him. I simply believe that the Bible teaches man cannot, nor will not, nor have the desire to believe in God on their own. He has to change our hearts before we cry out to Him for salvation.

Do you believe that God never desired that all men be saved, and only chose to draw certain ones to Him because He did not love the rest?

 

[Z Man]

Do you believe that God never desired that all men be saved, and only chose to draw certain ones to Him because He did not love the rest?

Of course God desires all men be saved, but obviously it's not His will, unless you believe in universalism. But from what I can see today and from around the world, not everyone is saved.

I believe God elects according to His good pleasure and will. It's His sovereign choice who He wishes to save or not. Who are we to 'talk back'?

 

[Jauchzer]

He wants to save everyone, but doesn't really want to save everyone. That does not make sense. Do you believe that God behaves contrary to His expressed wishes? He would be either desiring something which is not perfect, or He would be acting in a manner which is not perfect.

I don't believe in universalism. A study of the attributes of various "gods" shows that there are false gods. Dagon and Baal certainly were shown to be among that number.

 

[Z Man]

He wants to save everyone, but doesn't really want to save everyone. That does not make sense. Do you believe that God behaves contrary to His expressed wishes? He would be either desiring something which is not perfect, or He would be acting in a manner which is not perfect.

I believe the Bible teaches that there are "two wills" in God, or two ways of willing. It implies that God decrees one state of affairs while also willing and teaching that a different state of affairs should come to pass. If you wanna know more, then I suggest that you read THIS ARTICLE by John Piper.

I don't believe in universalism. A study of the attributes of various "gods" shows that there are false gods. Dagon and Baal certainly were shown to be among that number.

Universalism is the belief that all peoples will be saved of all time.

 

[godrulz]

You act as if man deserves God's favor.

Man does not deserve God's favor. In light of His perfect, impartial love and sacrifice, it makes no sense that it was limited or that His love is limited. Elect vs non-elect by decree is a non-starter. Even Calvin called reprobation a 'horrible' doctrine, yet he believed it. It is not defensible and ignores the myriad of verses that talk about our responsibility to repent, believe, respond, obey, love, etc.

 

[godrulz]

Ask, and you shall receive.

The Bible clearly teaches us that no man can go to God of their own will:


John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Romans 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Ephesians 2:1, 4-5, 8-9
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins...

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)...

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.


Titus 3:3-7
For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


2 Corinthians 4:6
For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


Acts 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


Romans 3:11
There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

The Holy Spirit convicts, convinces, draws, persuades, woos, enables, etc. This does not mean than our mind and volition is not involved. God uses men to appeal to other men with the truth of the Gospel. He commands us to repent, believe, be born again, etc. If it was literally impossible to do so, He is misleading us. It would also remove responsibility/accountability. Total depravity does not mean total inability. The image of God is defaced, not erased.




And I can go on, and on, and on... This should be enough for you to chew on a while....

 

[godrulz]

Is that a bad thing, that God save people???

Don't people deserve to go there? You said it yourself:

No, man does not deserve God's favor. Not a single man does...

God's love is vast and impartial. His sacrifice is efficacious for all who believe. Your view of God limits His love and negates the effectiveness of the sacrifice. You emphasize the Godward, objective provision, while overlooking the subjective, manward appropriation. We cannot save ourselves. God's love is impartial. There is no reason to boast. You are proof texting again. Other verses challenge us to seek after God (vs your wooden literalism that no man seeks God). God draws us to Himself, but we must also respond to the light He gives us. Not everyone opens their heart. This is not grounds for boasting. It is an admission that love is not coerced and relationships are not unilateral.

 

[godrulz]

No one believes that God turns away those who beleive in Him. I simply believe that the Bible teaches man cannot, nor will not, nor have the desire to believe in God on their own. He has to change our hearts before we cry out to Him for salvation.

This is half true. We seem to have some ability to respond to the conviction and convincing of the Spirit. Our wills and intellect were not annihilated at birth. Assuming regeneration precedes repentant faith and that faith is a thing/gift given only to the elect, keeps you begging the question and reasoning in circles.

 

[godrulz]

Of course God desires all men be saved, but obviously it's not His will, unless you believe in universalism. But from what I can see today and from around the world, not everyone is saved.

I believe God elects according to His good pleasure and will. It's His sovereign choice who He wishes to save or not. Who are we to 'talk back'?

1) God desires all men to be saved (2 Peter 3:9; Jn. 3:16).

2) Not all men are saved.

A) It is not God's will that all men are saved? You have just contradicted your first premise. Then you say He wishes some to be saved, but not others. This again contradicts the biblical evidence and your first statement.

B) Alternate explanation: God desires and wills all men to be saved. Hyper-sovereignty/TULIP are inaccurate assumptions. God's provision is efficacious for all who believe. Some men chose to not believe or reject His grace and conviction. They fail to appropriate His provision and meet His reasonable conditions (willing to turn from Selfishness to living supremely for Him by faith). God's sovereignty allowed Him to create other free moral agents who are capable and responsible for their choices. His will is not the only will in the universe. The alternative would be to create a deterministic universe of robots. This would preclude freely chosen love relationship, the essence of salvation (vs a metaphysical change in our constitution).

Unconditional atonement leads to limited atonement and presupposes total inability/depravity and irresistible grace (a contradiction in terms). If one plank is wrong (they all are), then the Calvinisitic house of cards/dominos comes crashing down.

The alternate explanation affirms God's sovereignty (providential vs meticulous control) and the freedom of man (created in the image of God). The tension in debates about this are due to a wrong understanding of sovereignty and a specious definition of free will.