Theology Club: I'm a heretic (probably...you tell me)

[glorydaz]

I ask this with all sincerity .....
How do you tell the difference between God personally intervening and coincidence?

Well, I'll tell you as straight up as I can. When I was first saved, I was kinda naïve and I was visiting my grandpa (who had raised us girls) as he lay sick near unto death in the hospital. First, he was flicking the tv around and around and didn't even really know we were in the room. I felt I needed to hear him say if he believed in Jesus. So I asked him. He stopped flicking the tv, looked into my eyes, and said, "Yes, (my name) I always have." Then he went back to flicking the tv. A bunch of relatives were hanging around because we knew he wasn't doing well, but the nurse came in and said we should all go home and get some rest as he was in stable condition. I went to the chapel and prayed that I would be the only family member present when grandpa passed away. I felt I was the one who could handle it best as I'd just heard him say he believed in the Lord. A very childish request I know. Everyone decided to go home and my sister and I agreed to hang out and let them know if things changed. Suddenly, just after they'd all left the nurse came and said we'd better call everyone back because grandpa had taken a sudden turn for the worst. My sister ran to the phone and I went into his room. He died while I was with him before she had a chance to get back in the room. I knew it was the Lord confirming the fact that He'd heard my request....silly as it was. Over the years, I have prayed over everything...I have matured and always preface my prayers with admitting that what I'm requesting may not be the best but trusting the Holy Spirit will interpret my intentions to be according to His will. Over and over and over over the past years, I have seen God answer prayers and fill me with His peace in a way that could never be chalked up to happenstance. Never. Just recently, when my mom passed away, my daughter and I were praying about her passing and my daughter called me with the news that she had passed. It happened in a way that so increased my daughter's faith it reminded my of that first answer to prayer concerning my own grandpa. No, it was no coincidence. If I were to say that then I'd be saying God doesn't exist...much less hear me when I call out to Him. Even the thought of such a thing makes me shudder.

I realize this may not be an acceptable answer, but neither is belief in God an acceptable answer to everyone. I will say like the blind man that Jesus healed....."I don't know how He did it, but once I was blind and now I can see."

I love you, Tam, and I know you will understand.

 

[patrick jane]

Over the years, I have prayed over everything...I have matured and always preface my prayers with admitting that what I'm requesting may not be the best but trusting the Holy Spirit will interpret my intentions to be according to His will. Over and over and over over the past years, I have seen God answer prayers and fill me with His peace in a way that could never be chalked up to happenstance. Never.

I realize this may not be an acceptable answer, but neither is belief in God an acceptable answer to everyone. I will say like the blind man that Jesus healed....."I don't know how He did it, but once I was blind and now I can see."

Amen. great post !

the Holy Spirit prays for us; and makes intercession. Christ prays for us when we don't even know what to pray for or how to pray. (there is no set 'how to pray' , imo)

Romans 8:26 KJV - Romans 8:27 KJV - Romans 8:28 KJV -

 

[Danoh]

The rest of your post is fine, but this part is kinda silly if you ask me. In the first place, prayer has absolutely nothing to do with gifts. It does have to do with the Spirit who indwells us (in the inward man) which is how we commune with the Lord. He very often answers us through His word, especially as to why we may not receive what we have requested...we do find answers in the scripture, and I'm not denying that. However, when we see our prayers being answered, we are not to count it as coincidence. I will never agree to that, and I think it's wrong. I don't see how you can even compare prayer and intercession with any gift.

Phil. 4:6-7 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.​

So, I'm thinking maybe you aren't quite perfect about looking at things from someone else's viewpoint after all. :chuckle:

I am well aware that when I share my understanding on this, it does tend to go against how others see it.

You know, sis, when I read that passage, what I understand it to be asserting (from an overall in depth study of this issue in Romans through Philemon, in light of the A9D Perspective through the years) is that...

(1)we should be careful for nothing. Rather; that...

(2) in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving we should let our requests be made known unto God. What it then "promises" is that...

(3) the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep our hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

I'm aware as I read that passage, that it's every word, phrasing and nuance has very specific, Pauline, A9D Mystery Grace based meanings that demand our studying out for their understanding, and by that, the understanding in turn, of that passage.

Being that we each go about all that in a manner that at times differs from one another I doubt you will be the last to take issue with what you have concluded I am saying.

That simply cannot be helped as we each look at these issues from what and where we have looked, or not looked at them.

And that is okay, by me.

I refuse to insist anyone agree with me on anything that they have not come to understand on their own first, "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

That is where I am on this and all other issues but for those few issues that do demand a stand against.

Thanks for your thoughts, and nice to see the lion in you

 

[glorydaz]

I am well aware that when I share my understanding on this, it does tend to go against how others see it.

You know, sis, when I read that passage, what I understand it to be asserting (from an overall in depth study of this issue in Romans through Philemon, in light of the A9D Perspective through the years) is that...

(1)we should be careful for nothing. Rather; that...

(2) in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving we should let our requests be made known unto God. What it then "promises" is that...

(3) the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep our hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

I'm aware as I read that passage, that it's every word, phrasing and nuance has very specific, Pauline, A9D Mystery Grace based meanings that demand our studying out for their understanding, and by that, the understanding in turn, of that passage.

Being that we each go about all that in a manner that at times differs from one another I doubt you will be the last to take issue with what you have concluded I am saying.

That simply cannot be helped as we each look at these issues from what and where we have looked, or not looked at them.

And that is okay, by me.

I refuse to insist anyone agree with me on anything that they have not come to understand on their own first, "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

That is where I am on this and all other issues but for those few issues that do demand a stand against.

Thanks for your thoughts, and nice to see the lion in you

Well, just for that I'm never talking to you again as long as I live.


Go ahead...run and hide.


And....I'm dropping you from my prayer list.


And no amount of begging will make me change my mind.



Guess that'll fix ya!!!!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Well, I'll tell you as straight up as I can. When I was first saved, I was kinda naïve and I was visiting my grandpa (who had raised us girls) as he lay sick near unto death in the hospital. First, he was flicking the tv around and around and didn't even really know we were in the room. I felt I needed to hear him say if he believed in Jesus. So I asked him. He stopped flicking the tv, looked into my eyes, and said, "Yes, (my name) I always have." Then he went back to flicking the tv. A bunch of relatives were hanging around because we knew he wasn't doing well, but the nurse came in and said we should all go home and get some rest as he was in stable condition. I went to the chapel and prayed that I would be the only family member present when grandpa passed away. I felt I was the one who could handle it best as I'd just heard him say he believed in the Lord. A very childish request I know. Everyone decided to go home and my sister and I agreed to hang out and let them know if things changed. Suddenly, just after they'd all left the nurse came and said we'd better call everyone back because grandpa had taken a sudden turn for the worst. My sister ran to the phone and I went into his room. He died while I was with him before she had a chance to get back in the room. I knew it was the Lord confirming the fact that He'd heard my request....silly as it was. Over the years, I have prayed over everything...I have matured and always preface my prayers with admitting that what I'm requesting may not be the best but trusting the Holy Spirit will interpret my intentions to be according to His will. Over and over and over over the past years, I have seen God answer prayers and fill me with His peace in a way that could never be chalked up to happenstance. Never. Just recently, when my mom passed away, my daughter and I were praying about her passing and my daughter called me with the news that she had passed. It happened in a way that so increased my daughter's faith it reminded my of that first answer to prayer concerning my own grandpa. No, it was no coincidence. If I were to say that then I'd be saying God doesn't exist...much less hear me when I call out to Him. Even the thought of such a thing makes me shudder.

I realize this may not be an acceptable answer, but neither is belief in God an acceptable answer to everyone. I will say like the blind man that Jesus healed....."I don't know how He did it, but once I was blind and now I can see."

I love you, Tam, and I know you will understand.

Beautiful post.

 

[glorydaz]

GM.....don't smack Danoh.....I was just kidding.

 

[glorydaz]

Beautiful post.

Haha, Danoh, someone thinks I'm great.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

GM.....don't smack Danoh.....I was just kidding.

I thought it was?

 

[glorydaz]

I thought it was?

Not the post you said was "beautiful". I was serious about that one.

But the one where I said I would never talk to him again. That was a joke, but don't tell him. Let him keep wondering.....

 

[patrick jane]

The rest of your post is fine, but this part is kinda silly if you ask me. In the first place, prayer has absolutely nothing to do with gifts. It does have to do with the Spirit who indwells us (in the inward man) which is how we commune with the Lord. He very often answers us through His word, especially as to why we may not receive what we have requested...we do find answers in the scripture, and I'm not denying that. However, when we see our prayers being answered, we are not to count it as coincidence. I will never agree to that, and I think it's wrong. I don't see how you can even compare prayer and intercession with any gift.

Phil. 4:6-7 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.​

So, I'm thinking maybe you aren't quite perfect about looking at things from someone else's viewpoint after all. :chuckle:

exactly !

Amen. great post !

the Holy Spirit prays for us; and makes intercession. Christ prays for us when we don't even know what to pray for or how to pray. (there is no set 'how to pray' , imo)

Romans 8:26 KJV - Romans 8:27 KJV - Romans 8:28 KJV -

 

[Danoh]

...Common sense dictates that gifts are still being given because those in the Body have not yet reached a unity in the faith. But you continue to ignore this fact. Do you think that we have all reached unity in the faith?

Of course we haven't and the various opinions found on this forum prove it. Despite this you can somehow imagine that we have indeed reached unity in the faith. How else can you explain your idea that the gifts are no longer needed or are no longer being given?

The "apostles" and "prophets" were initially given to equip Christians for works of service. But their work was foundational in nature and once the foundation was laid then it was not necessary for those gifts to be continued to be given. However, the other gifts serve to help Christians attain to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Now please explain why you think that the gifts have been discontinued to be given despite the fact that Paul made it plain that they will continue to be given UNTIL those in the Body reach a unity of the faith?

You haven't yet addressed those facts!

Consider that Paul's addressing of this unity issue is the issue of unity between members of the Body of Christ in Romans thru Philemon, that said writings make obvious, was a local assembly issue, and one that differed within each assembly.

Consider also, that what we have on an internet forum is anything but one assembly, let alone, a local one, and or one, that for that matter, appears to adhere to Pauline Doctrine in the same way.

Unity in understanding within such a setting is simply impossible.

Just as it had been even in Paul's own day. Where he'd move on after having set up what he had, only to find later that what he had left behind had ended up on a different page.

And this was the case, during a time when the gifts were a plenty in all the various Body member assemblies he wrote Romans thru Philemon to.

Consider also that while it is fine to let a passage mean what it says, that is actually not enough.

That one must then proceed to attempt to identify what it means.

Through comparison of verse with verse first.

And this, in light of what has already been established as sound by this same means.

But also, in contrast to what is often the far too obvious, off-base practice instead - understandings that have been based on "well that's what it says" a bit too soon in this process.

(1) Let it mean what it says, yes.

(2) But then, compare verse with verse, for what it means.

(3) This, in light of what has already been established as sound by this same three-fold practice.

The end result:

The Word rightly divided (including, even Paul's writings) in light of, and this side of, the fullness of the revelation of the Mystery, in written form: Romans through Philemon.

This very process is how the Pauline Perspective began to reemerge to begin with, after all those centuries it has appeared nowhere to be found in Church History, stuck as it has continued to remain on "well, it says what it says."

While there this Mystery as the key, has been all along...

In Romans through Philemon.

Unity on an internet forum?

You are setting yourself up for more of the same madness you continue to demand of others...

 

[way 2 go]

Haha, Danoh, someone thinks I'm great.

glorydaz the great :think:

it was a great post

 

[Danoh]

Hah ha! - I have a Mystery weapon - "the peace of God that passeth all understanding."

When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
When sorrows like sea billows roll;
Whatever my lot, Thou has taught me to say,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.

NEXT!

 

[Danoh]

A Mid-Acts, Dispensational Cessasionist from yesteryear...

http://www.tonykieraldo.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/alfred-e-neuman.jpeg

 

[musterion]

Well, I'll tell you as straight up as I can. When I was first saved, I was kinda naïve and I was visiting my grandpa (who had raised us girls) as he lay sick near unto death in the hospital. First, he was flicking the tv around and around and didn't even really know we were in the room. I felt I needed to hear him say if he believed in Jesus. So I asked him. He stopped flicking the tv, looked into my eyes, and said, "Yes, (my name) I always have." Then he went back to flicking the tv. A bunch of relatives were hanging around because we knew he wasn't doing well, but the nurse came in and said we should all go home and get some rest as he was in stable condition. I went to the chapel and prayed that I would be the only family member present when grandpa passed away. I felt I was the one who could handle it best as I'd just heard him say he believed in the Lord. A very childish request I know. Everyone decided to go home and my sister and I agreed to hang out and let them know if things changed. Suddenly, just after they'd all left the nurse came and said we'd better call everyone back because grandpa had taken a sudden turn for the worst. My sister ran to the phone and I went into his room. He died while I was with him before she had a chance to get back in the room. I knew it was the Lord confirming the fact that He'd heard my request....silly as it was. Over the years, I have prayed over everything...I have matured and always preface my prayers with admitting that what I'm requesting may not be the best but trusting the Holy Spirit will interpret my intentions to be according to His will. Over and over and over over the past years, I have seen God answer prayers and fill me with His peace in a way that could never be chalked up to happenstance. Never. Just recently, when my mom passed away, my daughter and I were praying about her passing and my daughter called me with the news that she had passed. It happened in a way that so increased my daughter's faith it reminded my of that first answer to prayer concerning my own grandpa. No, it was no coincidence. If I were to say that then I'd be saying God doesn't exist...much less hear me when I call out to Him. Even the thought of such a thing makes me shudder.

I realize this may not be an acceptable answer, but neither is belief in God an acceptable answer to everyone. I will say like the blind man that Jesus healed....."I don't know how He did it, but once I was blind and now I can see."

I love you, Tam, and I know you will understand.

If I could just tack on to that...over the decades I have found that chance and coincidence tend to not work out for me, not the way I would like anyway.

 

[musterion]

exactly !

Amen. great post !

the Holy Spirit prays for us; and makes intercession. Christ prays for us when we don't even know what to pray for or how to pray. (there is no set 'how to pray' , imo)

Romans 8:26 KJV - Romans 8:27 KJV - Romans 8:28 KJV -

Good points.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Consider also that while it is fine to let a passage mean what it says, that is actually not enough.

That one must then proceed to attempt to identify what it means.

Through comparison of verse with verse first.

Since you think that you know the correct way to interpret the Scriptures let us see if it works. Let us look at these words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law by the Lord Jesus:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

According to my method of interpreting the Scriptures the Lord told those Jews that if the "believed" then they would be saved. He said nothing about doing "works" in order to be saved so according to my method of interpreting the Scriptures they were saved by faith and faith alone.

Do you agree with that?

 

[Tambora]

I realize this may not be an acceptable answer, but neither is belief in God an acceptable answer to everyone. I will say like the blind man that Jesus healed....."I don't know how He did it, but once I was blind and now I can see."

I love you, Tam, and I know you will understand.

I know ya love me. And I love you too.
And naturally, I cannot confirm that your prayer was the exact cause of your grandfather dying with only you in his room.
Maybe it was caused by God. But then again, maybe it was just the natural course that he would die at that time no matter how many folks were in the room.
And I certainly don't think it would diminish your faith if it was just coincidence.


I have stories too, of times when I thought it could have been God answering prayer. But then again, there was nothing about any of the situations that could not completely rule out coincidence.
Long story short, God doesn't have to answer anyone's prayers in order for them to have complete faith in God. They don't need any sign to assure them of God's faithfulness to them. We have God's word on His faithfulness. We stand on His oath, not ours.

I have no problem with folks thinking that it was God that answered their prayer. Maybe it was. But at the same time, I hope they know that if by chance it wasn't God's intervention, God is still faithful with His word.

I've seen way too many times that folks claim the cause of something was God's intervention. For instance: hurricane hitting New Orleans.
A city that housed both believers and unbelievers. Some of both groups survived, and some of both groups died. Some of both groups had enough to rebuild, and some of both groups were devastated.
It wasn't a hurricane that pronounced judgement on the wicked and protected the righteous. The hurricane hit both groups the same way, without any respect of persons.
And the hurricane did not diminish the faithfulness of God to those believers that died or were devastated.

What really gets my goat are the ones that tell folks that the reason their prayers are not answered is because they don't have enough faith. I shudder when I hear folks say that.

As you can plainly see, I'm not a fan of the "name it and claim it' folks.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[musterion]

I have no problem with folks thinking that it was God that answered their prayer. Maybe it was. But at the same time, I hope they know that if by chance it wasn't God's intervention, God is still faithful with His word.

I'll agree with that 100%, but want to explain why.

Even if mere chance or the normal course of things is how many things come to believers (and I don't think I've denied it), God out Father still makes all things to work together for our ultimate good. So one way or the other, whether directly brought by His intervention or just allowed to come via the normal course of things, Father is still in charge, still in control and still watching closely over each of His children.

What each of us is saying really amounts to the same thing: whether He's directly answering prayer or not, He's still here, working in and for us to His glory. Know what I mean?

 

[Arsenios]

I ask this with all sincerity .....
How do you tell the difference
between God personally intervening
and coincidence?

That is easy -

There is no such thing as coincidence...

God controls every nanosecond of all creation...

Its discernment comes with discipleship...

Normally in mature old age... Heb 5:14

God's "personal" intervention will be just that: Personal...

And THAT intervention CANNOT be mistaken for ANYTHING else...

Even though OTHER incursions CAN be mistaken for IT... [test the spirits]

So that, my dear friend, IF you simply regard ALL events as transpiring FOR you, in every detail, by God's Grace, you will have made a huge step forward... Because indeed, ALL things are for the good unto those who are believing in God... Even the suffering and death of His Only-Begotten Son...

The God-quest is a reality-quest...

ALL of reality...

Arsenios