ECT Is "Hell" divine torture or divine justice?

Krsto

Well-known member
Yes I agree. Trouble is that now there have been a few notable theologians who have abandoned the truth of eternal punishment for the deception of annihilation such as John Stott and Roger Forster.

Pete 👤

They haven't abandoned the "truth" of eternal punishment, they have just come to understand what that actually means, in a way consistent with the revelation of God in the scriptures. Eternal punishment is not a process of punishment that goes on forever, but a punishment that is irrevocable and has an everlasting effect. Death, IOW. Annihilation is eternal punishment. Get it?
 

patrick jane

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yep, there's either somethin or there's nothin. we all get to find out by ourselves, all alone, for an instant. we know there's something cuz God tells us.
 

patrick jane

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krsto and revpete, can you give your beliefs on this thread , in summary generally speaking ? or specifically, when you get a chance, if you will. thanks PJ:sleep:
 

Lazy afternoon

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KRSTO - i love it. amen - that's pretty much what i think too. people seem to need that unimaginabe, indescribable pain, torment and anguish punishment to hang over OTHER peoples' heads. i guess it makes some folks feel good and worthwhile

Yes Patrick,

Unknowingly, many are judging themselves when they insist that others deserve to be tormented forever.

LA
 

revpete

New member
They haven't abandoned the "truth" of eternal punishment, they have just come to understand what that actually means, in a way consistent with the revelation of God in the scriptures. Eternal punishment is not a process of punishment that goes on forever, but a punishment that is irrevocable and has an everlasting effect. Death, IOW. Annihilation is eternal punishment. Get it?


Yes I do get it and it's quite a novel way of looking at it really. However, By its very definition annihilation cannot have an everlasting effect on the one annihilated because they would not be able to be effected by anything ever again. If you mean annihilation is the everlasting effect then the word used for torment would be redundant, especially in Rev. 10,11

βασανισμός {bas-an-is-mos'}

βασανισμός from βασανίζω; torture: torment.

The word is used ten times in the book of Revelation.

Pete 👤
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Ted, you have said quite a lot and understandably so. You have merely expanded on what I stated. I gave the abridged version if you like. I know that there is also much more to say. I would agree with your last statement and that must surely be the goal of every serious Bible student. A straight forward interpretation is arrived at by the rule (IMO) I have stated. Aren't the two rules we have stated the same thing in different words?

Pete 👤

Yes, pretty well. everyone seems to have a pretty good take on it but that does not lead us into unity...that will take a movement of the Holy Spirit to fulfill Ephesians 4:13 Until we all attain to the unity of the faith ...

and to disrupt the thoughts that any modern denomination will form the base of the unity, I believe it will be based upon an new revelation of the interpretation of what GOD is doing with us as per Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand. which is split between the curse and the blessing such as is repeated in Revelation 10:8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me once more: "Go, take the scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land." 9 So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, "Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey." 10 I took the little scroll from the angel's hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour.

Very interesting, no? As a sign of the last days, a "scroll" or KJV "little book" a diminutive form of the Greek biblos or in English, bible appears...

Since 'book' or 'scroll' denotes writing to me, I suggest that eating is a metaphor for reading the scroll and is used so we can get the analogy of sweetness and bitterness / sour taste into the metaphor.

To continue with the thought would take us to: I read the words on the little book and at first I thought they were very wonderful and gratifying (sweet) but later as I dwelt upon their meaning, I found them hard to digest, (sour in my stomach), that is hard to accept in their full meaning.

This leads me to consider that in the last days a new revelation will be learned that at first seems great but then makes us scared or dismayed as we learn its implications.

Maybe it reflects: Zechariah 5:2-4 :
1 I looked again—and there before me was a flying scroll!
2 He asked me, “What do you see?” I answered, “I see a flying scroll, thirty feet long and fifteen feet wide.”
3 And he said to me, “This is the curse that is going out over the whole land; for according to what it says on one side, every thief will be banished, and according to what it says on the other, everyone who swears falsely will be banished.
4 The Lord Almighty declares, ‘I will send it out, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of him who swears falsely by my name. It will remain in his house and destroy it, both its timbers and its stones.’”


Since it is a book (scroll) it would probably contain some ideas of an unearthly (previously unrevealed) nature. Its measurement "just happens" to match the holy place of GOD's temple, so it would probably be a holy book. And its holy message will have a profound effect on some people, for it obviously has some bad news:

Kiel(#2) comments: “The roll therefore symbolised the curse which will fall upon sinners throughout the whole land, consuming them with their houses, and thus sweeping them out of the nation of GOD.” (In other words, Armageddon.)

Cursed by the message of a scroll (book); which I don't think we've seen yet...

When these things come to fruition, then I think we will find a unity of the faith as all those committed more to their denomination reject this new revelation and are left behind, like the pharisees and sadducees were proven false when Jesus arrived.

Just a suspicion I have and yet I doubt if all the understanding of the golden rule of bible interpretation will help the falsely committed any more than it helped the the pharisees and sadducees.

Unity will come only from the Holy Spirit...

Peace, Ted
 

revpete

New member
Yes, I have studied the immortality of the soul and found it to be a Platonic idea, not a biblical idea.



Yes, God views sin very seriously, seriously enough to warn us of the consequences: pain and misery in this life, and finally, death. Rom. 6:23 The wages of sin is death. Death is pretty serious stuff but I'm not going to make up eternal suffering just to make it seem more serious. I'm not into make-it-up-as-you-go religion.



Yes, God is holy, absolutely holy, but there is nothing about that that demands that God punish someone forever for one single sin, especially when people don't have a snowball's chance in hell of avoiding sin. If a holy God is going to judge us so severely for sin then don't you think a merciful God would have done a better job of making us so we have at least half a chance of not sinning rather than zero chance? That's like me judging my 6 year old kids for not being as tall as I am. No just, holy, merciful, or loving God is going to punish so severely for something we have no chance to avoid. If you think he would, you have created a monstrous God in your own head. Try re-interpreting the scriptures differently so you don't make God out to be a sadistic monster, OK?


You are applying human logic to God and that is not always possible because His ways and thoughts are far above ours.

As the immortallity of the soul as taught by Plato:

Plato’s main argument for the immortality of the soul is found in his Phaedo. Following contemporary Greek religious belief and Socrates assumption that everything is involved in an eternal cyclical process, Plato naturally understands immortality (and pre-existence) of the soul in terms of reincarnation. Plato draws an analogy with sleep. Sleep comes after being awake and being awake comes after sleep. Likewise just as death comes from life so must death return to life

His doctrine is a mixture of eastern mysticism and reincarnation.

According to an ancient Greek concept of immortality (e.g. Plato), human beings ARE a soul and only HAVE a body. Death is the separation of the soul and the body. This is a form of dualism. The Christian view sees soul and body as unified in personhood. The Human being is a souled body. This becomes clear in the New Testament, which uses the term immortality exclusively in the context of the resurrection body. Human beings are not viewed as existing, at least permanently, without a body. The period of time between the physical death of a human and the resurrection of the human is the temporal period during which the human is without a body, but this is neither the original design in creation nor the ultimate end of the human.


The Old Testament contains a number of references to immortality. King David referred specifically to the resurrection of the Messiah noting that His body would not be abandoned to the grave (Psalm 16:10). This passage from Isaiah speaks for itself, “Your dead will live; their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, for your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.” (Isaiah 26:19). In the 8th century B.C., the prophet Elijah was taken up into heaven in the Old Testament (2 Kings 2:9-11), and then he was returned briefly to earth in the New Testament (Mark 9:2-13). These passages are quite direct in their references to immortality. Now let's consider the New Testament.

The New Testament

The New Testament is replete with references to immortality. Here's just one: The apostle Paul, who wrote approximately two-thirds of the New Testament after the gospels, wrote a lengthy discourse in the fifteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians about the bodily resurrection of both Jesus Christ and his followers. I will quote just two brief portions of it here. “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at his coming,” (1 Corinthians 15:20-23) and “behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. but when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. “O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?”” (1 Corinthians 15:51-55)

There is no question that the Bible, in both the Old and New Testaments, clearly communicates the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. This is a central truth of Christian teaching. And, according to the prophesy mentioned above from Isaiah, the doctrine applies to both Christians and non-Christians, both Jews and Gentiles, believers and unbelievers. The Bible teaches that all humans will experience life after death; some will spend eternity in heaven and the rest will spend it in hell.

God is love. God is Holy. God is just. He is The God of grace and forgiveness. God is not a sadistic monster (as you say that I and others that believe in eternal punishment have created) but He is wholly good and infinite and as such some His ways cannot be fathomed by His finite creatures.

Pete 👤
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
...

Yes, God is holy, absolutely holy, but there is nothing about that that demands that God punish someone forever for one single sin, especially when people don't have a snowball's chance in hell of avoiding sin...

One single sin, that of rejecting YHWH as their GOD and HIS promises of election to heaven by the salvation from sin found in HIS Son was the only sin that condemned the sinner to hell as it is the only sin that puts an ingenuously innocent person who chooses it outside of HIS grace for eternity.

All earthly sins are just an outworking of this one sin - refusing to put their faith in YHWH as their GOD and refusing to accept Christ as their saviour by their free will faith...it is the sin of unbelief for which they are condemned already.

All the sins of the elect, those who did put their faith in HIM as their GOD and did put their faith in HIS Son as their saviour, but who then sinned becoming just as evil as the reprobate demons but since they are under the promise of election,they will be forgiven and brought back to their GOD and sanctified to HIS purpose.

The good sheep are the elect who go astray into sin city but return to their Shepherd; they are not reborn goats, the reprobate who never put their faith in YHWH as their GOD.

Peace, Ted
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
You are applying human logic to God and that is not always possible because His ways and thoughts are far above ours.

As the immortallity of the soul as taught by Plato:

Plato’s main argument for the immortality of the soul is found in his Phaedo. Following contemporary Greek religious belief and Socrates assumption that everything is involved in an eternal cyclical process, Plato naturally understands immortality (and pre-existence) of the soul in terms of reincarnation. Plato draws an analogy with sleep. Sleep comes after being awake and being awake comes after sleep. Likewise just as death comes from life so must death return to life

His doctrine is a mixture of eastern mysticism and reincarnation.

According to an ancient Greek concept of immortality (e.g. Plato), human beings ARE a soul and only HAVE a body. Death is the separation of the soul and the body. This is a form of dualism. The Christian view sees soul and body as unified in personhood. The Human being is a souled body. This becomes clear in the New Testament, which uses the term immortality exclusively in the context of the resurrection body. Human beings are not viewed as existing, at least permanently, without a body. The period of time between the physical death of a human and the resurrection of the human is the temporal period during which the human is without a body, but this is neither the original design in creation nor the ultimate end of the human.


The Old Testament contains a number of references to immortality. King David referred specifically to the resurrection of the Messiah noting that His body would not be abandoned to the grave (Psalm 16:10). This passage from Isaiah speaks for itself, “Your dead will live; their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, for your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.” (Isaiah 26:19). In the 8th century B.C., the prophet Elijah was taken up into heaven in the Old Testament (2 Kings 2:9-11), and then he was returned briefly to earth in the New Testament (Mark 9:2-13). These passages are quite direct in their references to immortality. Now let's consider the New Testament.

The New Testament

The New Testament is replete with references to immortality. Here's just one: The apostle Paul, who wrote approximately two-thirds of the New Testament after the gospels, wrote a lengthy discourse in the fifteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians about the bodily resurrection of both Jesus Christ and his followers. I will quote just two brief portions of it here. “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at his coming,” (1 Corinthians 15:20-23) and “behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. but when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. “O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?”” (1 Corinthians 15:51-55)

There is no question that the Bible, in both the Old and New Testaments, clearly communicates the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. This is a central truth of Christian teaching. And, according to the prophesy mentioned above from Isaiah, the doctrine applies to both Christians and non-Christians, both Jews and Gentiles, believers and unbelievers. The Bible teaches that all humans will experience life after death; some will spend eternity in heaven and the rest will spend it in hell.

God is love. God is Holy. God is just. He is The God of grace and forgiveness. God is not a sadistic monster (as you say that I and others that believe in eternal punishment have created) but He is wholly good and infinite and as such some His ways cannot be fathomed by His finite creatures.

Pete ��

very well said, rev ! awesome:sam:
 

Lazy afternoon

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LIFETIME MEMBER
There is no question that the Bible, in both the Old and New Testaments, clearly communicates the doctrine of the immortality of the soul.

It doesn't.

The word soul means life.

People die every day.

Christ died, or do you deny that?


This is a central truth of Christian teaching. And, according to the prophesy mentioned above from Isaiah, the doctrine applies to both Christians and non-Christians, both Jews and Gentiles, believers and unbelievers.

Immortality is only bestowed upon the righteous at their resurrection--

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?





The Bible teaches that all humans will experience life after death; some will spend eternity in heaven and the rest will spend it in hell.

All men will stand before God and give an account for their actions at some time, but those whose names are not written in the book of life are not raised immortal, but burnable.

God is love. God is Holy. God is just. He is The God of grace and forgiveness. God is not a sadistic monster (as you say that I and others that believe in eternal punishment have created) but He is wholly good and infinite and as such some His ways cannot be fathomed by His finite creatures.

Pete ��

Then why do you claim to know His ways?

You saying God is just, is a contradiction to saying He will allow men to suffer forever in hell.

LA
 

Timotheos

New member
Rules are abused. Just because people bend and pervert the rule doesn't make the rule itself wrong. I only gave that one rule as an example; of course it's not set in stone. Another example would be Miles Coverdale's rules of Bible study:

1) What is spoken
2) Of Whom
3) With what words
4) At what time
5) To what intent
6) With what circumstances, considering what goes before and what follows ie context.

These are examples meant to assist us in our study of God's Word.

BTW d'ya like carrots?

Pete 👤

Of course I like carrots, all rabbits like carrots. I said I am the Easter Bunny, that is not a metaphor unless I gave some indication that it was symbolic language.

I think we agree, Bible study is complex. So we should do our best to determine what the authors of these very old books meant. What did they have in mind when they were writing. That can be difficult to determine.
 
Rules are abused. Just because people bend and pervert the rule doesn't make the rule itself wrong. I only gave that one rule as an example; of course it's not set in stone. Another example would be Miles Coverdale's rules of Bible study:

1) What is spoken
2) Of Whom
3) With what words
4) At what time
5) To what intent
6) With what circumstances, considering what goes before and what follows ie context.

These are examples meant to assist us in our study of God's Word.

BTW d'ya like carrots?

Pete ��

Good rules! It seems it's at the heart of about all Bible exegetical errors that somebody has lifted scripture out of context, and the ultimate context is the entire Bible, scripture harmony. It's epidemic in web forums, people trying to justify interpretations in error, by one verse, sometimes one word.

A rule I'd also add is that the Bible says what it says, not what we want it to say. We shouldn't read God's word with any idea it should conform to our thinking, but with a completely open mind, ready to believe even things we may not like to believe. Some of the worst exegesis is people taking their errant premise, then trying to build a Biblical case around it, something which is a waste, that doesn't get to the only important thing, God's truth.
 
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