Is predestination causal?

[elected4ever]

deardelmar ask the question, Is predestination causal? I think this question is at the heart of the matter. If you care to post please state why you voted as you did. Expect to be challenged as this is the back ally.

 

[elohiym]

Is predestination causal? :think:


predestination-
a. The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation.
b. The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation.
c. The act of God foreordaining all things gone before and to come.


causal-
a. Of, involving, or constituting a cause: a causal relationship between scarcity of goods and higher prices.
b. Indicative of or expressing a cause.



Could you give an example of how predestination might be causal, and then an example how it might not be causal? Is it assumed that predestination is true for this debate?

 

[elected4ever]

Is predestination causal? :think:


predestination-
a. The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation.
b. The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation.
c. The act of God foreordaining all things gone before and to come.


causal-
a. Of, involving, or constituting a cause: a causal relationship between scarcity of goods and higher prices.
b. Indicative of or expressing a cause.



Could you give an example of how predestination might be causal, and then an example how it might not be causal? Is it assumed that predestination is true for this debate?

Predestination in one view is that if something is predestined then choice is lost. This is the what an open view person might believe.

Predestination in another view is that in God's foreknowledge he foresaw the choice of the individual and permitted it in His permissive will. Not violating the person's right to choose. This is what may be described as a closed view.

If a person is saved then one could say that predestination takes away a person's choice and the person was predestined to be saved. This is causal.

A person is not saved and though God knew the choice far, far in advance through God's permissive will accepted the individuals choice. This is not causal.

 

[elohiym]

Predestination in one view is that if something is predestined then choice is lost. This is the what an open view person might believe.

John 11:43,44 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Did Lazarus have a choice?

 

[elected4ever]

John 11:43,44 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Did Lazarus have a choice?

I will agree there are many things that we have no choice in. That is not what is being addressed here. We have no choice when it comes to the successful conclusion of God's plan. The question is, Did you have a free choice to accept Christ or did God make that choice for you?

 

[bigfoot]

Romans 9:15-16
“For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
“So then, it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy".

It seems here that salvation is down to God’s will and NOT Man’s (supposed) will (to accept or reject Him).
If this is the case, then we do not choose to follow Christ of our own volition, as we really had no say in the matter.
Circumstances must then be somehow ‘tweaked’ by God so that we find Him in a way that makes us think we had a choice.
Those who end up getting saved were saved all along — and those who don’t, weren’t.
So, why bother either way?
If God wants you, then you’re sorted, but if He doesn’t, then you’re doomed. And there’s nothing you can do about it (and I’d heard God doesn’t want robots worshipping Him).
Kinda puts the devil out of a job too!

 

[defcon]

What would be the point of causal predestination? I assume the argument for it has something to do with God not creating "objects of wrath" out of his own choice but by their choice. But if He can see in advance who would not believe, and then went ahead and created them anyway, does that really make it better or easier to accept for those who despise predestination?

Ephesians 1:3-5 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will"

He chose us - not we chose him so he chose us. Romans 9 is clear man has nothing to do with it.