Theology Club: Is there a DIFFERNCE between kINGDOM and GRACE ??

[DAN P]

Hi to all , and will present one MORE difference as I see that on the forums that I visit and do OP , THAT we will always be divided as most denominations .

Understanding Acts is crucial .

In Acts 15 , I have never seen anyone explain this verse , tho I know only of one Grace person that see as I see it .

The CONTEXT of Acts 15 , we see , that the council at Jerusalem are Law keepers and say that salvation is by Circumcision , verse 1 .

But , in verse 7 , Peter rises and says in verse 11 :

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ , WE shall be SAVED EVEN AS THEY !!

#1 , I see WE , and who is the " WE " ??

#2, And the WE are Saved !!

#3 , Who , then is Peter talking about as " THEY " ??

#4 , The THEY are Saved also , I believe !!

#5 , And I see 2 different ages here or periods of time !!

What say you ??

dan p

 

[Nick M]

Of course there is a difference. The good news according to Matthew declares works are required in the kingdom.

Paul says they will be counted as debt.

 

[surrender]

Hi to all , and will present one MORE difference as I see that on the forums that I visit and do OP , THAT we will always be divided as most denominations .

Understanding Acts is crucial .

In Acts 15 , I have never seen anyone explain this verse , tho I know only of one Grace person that see as I see it .

The CONTEXT of Acts 15 , we see , that the council at Jerusalem are Law keepers and say that salvation is by Circumcision , verse 1 .

But , in verse 7 , Peter rises and says in verse 11 :

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ , WE shall be SAVED EVEN AS THEY !!

#1 , I see WE , and who is the " WE " ??

#2, And the WE are Saved !!

#3 , Who , then is Peter talking about as " THEY " ??

#4 , The THEY are Saved also , I believe !!

#5 , And I see 2 different ages here or periods of time !!

What say you ??

dan p

The "they" in Acts 15:11 clearly refers to the Gentiles (cf. Acts 15:7, 12).

 

[DAN P]

The "they" in Acts 15:11 clearly refers to the Gentiles (cf. Acts 15:7, 12).

Hi , and I believe that there is a bigger signifance !!

THEY are the Gentiles !!

WE are the Jews !!

If the Jews are going to be saved as the Gentiles , WHEN does that happen !!

Doing the the Dispensation of Grace ??

For Peter speaks of Prophesied Grace in 1 Peter 1:10 !!

dan p

 

[surrender]

Hi , and I believe that there is a bigger signifance !!

THEY are the Gentiles !!

WE are the Jews !!

If the Jews are going to be saved as the Gentiles , WHEN does that happen !!

Doing the the Dispensation of Grace ??

For Peter speaks of Prophesied Grace in 1 Peter 1:10 !!

dan p

It doesn’t say “Jews are going to be saved as the Gentiles”; it says we (Jews) are saved through the grace of the Lord in the same way as they (Gentiles) also are.

The “prophesied grace” in 1 Peter 1:10 is the “salvation of your souls” (1 Peter 1:9) which is “brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:13).

The “already not yet” phenomenon is throughout Scripture. Salvation is spoken of both as a present reality and a future hope. And this goes for both those saved according to the “gospel of the kingdom” and those saved according to the “gospel of grace.”

Already:
“By grace you are saved through faith” (Eph. 2:8).
“In him we have redemption…” (Eph. 1:7-8).
“He has rescued us…and transferred us into the kingdom…we have redemption…” (Col. 1:13-14).
“He also raised us up…and seated us with him…” (Eph. 2:6).
“God has given us eternal life…” (1 John 5:11).
“…you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13).

Not yet:
“…salvation is nearer now that when we first believed” (Romans 13:11).
“And don’t grieve the Holy Spirit, who sealed you for the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30).
“…eagerly awaiting for adoption, the redemption of our bodies” (Rom. 8:23).

 

[Nick M]

It doesn’t say “Jews are going to be saved as the Gentiles”;

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

it says we (Jews) are saved through the grace of the Lord in the same way as they (Gentiles) also are.

No, that isn't what it says. If it did, then why the confusion? Why would they not know that without Paul?

30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

The Lord Jesus Christ is telling about his kingdom again. Is this what Paul said about being in Christ? Didn't he say one body, and no part is more than the other? Yes he did.

 

[surrender]

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are (NAS)

Even if you interpret the salvation of Acts 15:11 as a future hope for “the kingdom group,” it is also shown that the salvation of “the kingdom group” is a present reality, as well. “God has given us eternal life…” (1 John 5:11). “…you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13).

No, that isn't what it says. If it did, then why the confusion? Why would they not know that without Paul?

Peter knew it (Acts 15:7-9)

30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

The Lord Jesus Christ is telling about his kingdom again.

What the world sees as great men may very well end up least in the kingdom and what the world sees as lowly men may very well end up greatest in the kingdom.

Is this what Paul said about being in Christ? Didn't he say one body, and no part is more than the other? Yes he did.

“…God, who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;…” (Romans 2:5-7).

“…each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss;...” (1 Cor. 3:13-15).

 

[DAN P]

has given[/I] us eternal life…” (1 John 5:11). “…you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13).

Peter knew it (Acts 15:7-9)
“…each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss;...” (1 Cor. 3:13-15).

Hi , and you will never mix Oil and Water as they will never mix !!

Then you quote 1 John 5:11 - 13 which context is New Covenant teaching THEN you bring 1 Cor 3:13-15 which speaks to the Body of Christ !!

That is confusing to anyone , at least to me !!

dan p

 

[surrender]

Hi , and you will never mix Oil and Water as they will never mix !!

Then you quote 1 John 5:11 - 13 which context is New Covenant teaching THEN you bring 1 Cor 3:13-15 which speaks to the Body of Christ !!

That is confusing to anyone , at least to me !!

dan p

I’ll make it less confusing for you.

Even if you interpret the salvation of Acts 15:11 as a future hope for “the kingdom group,” it is also shown that the salvation of “the kingdom group” is a present reality, as well. “God has given us eternal life…” (1 John 5:11). “…you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13).

For clarity:
Salvation was a PRESENT reality for Peter and the other eleven disciples according to 1 John 5:11 and 1 John 5:13.

 

[surrender]

1 Cor 3:13-15 which speaks to the Body of Christ !!



dan p

Nick used the parable “many who are first will be last and the last first” to show a difference between the “kingdom group” and the “body of Christ.” This parable shows that some in the supposed “kingdom group” will be first and some last (i.e. varying rewards). I used Romans 2:5-7 and 1 Cor. 3:13-15 to show Nick that the “body of Christ” too will receive varying rewards. So, his attempt to distinguish them, in that particular way, failed.

 

[DAN P]

Nick used the parable “many who are first will be last and the last first” to show a difference between the “kingdom group” and the “body of Christ.” This parable shows that some in the supposed “kingdom group” will be first and some last (i.e. varying rewards). I used Romans 2:5-7 and 1 Cor. 3:13-15 to show Nick that the “body of Christ” too will receive varying rewards. So, his attempt to distinguish them, in that particular way, failed.

Hi , and there WILL be varying degrees of Rewards in the Millennial Kingdom , in Matt 25:15-30 , which speaks to Israel .

1 Cor 3:10-15 , which speaks to the Body of Christ at the BEMA SEAT , where we will receive our rewards .

There are rewards for the Jews who enter their " REST " and then there are rewards for the Body of Christ ,

Failure to see this , will bring confusion and that is why we have Acts 2 , believers and Covenant Theology !!

dan p

 

[surrender]

Hi , and there WILL be varying degrees of Rewards in the Millennial Kingdom , in Matt 25:15-30 , which speaks to Israel .

1 Cor 3:10-15 , which speaks to the Body of Christ at the BEMA SEAT , where we will receive our rewards .

There are rewards for the Jews who enter their " REST " and then there are rewards for the Body of Christ ,

Failure to see this , will bring confusion and that is why we have Acts 2 , believers and Covenant Theology !!

dan p

You proved my point. Nick's attempt to distinguish between the "kingdom group" and the "body of Christ," in this particular way, failed.

Furthermore, Nick’s attempt to distinguish between the “kingdom group” and the “body of Christ” by claiming the salvation of the “kingdom group” is future while the salvation of the “body of Christ” is present also failed, because Scripture reveals (see post #5) that salvation is spoken of as both a present reality and a future hope for both the “kingdom group” and the “body of Christ.” I have yet to see clear significant differences between these supposed groups.

 

[DAN P]

You proved my point. Nick's attempt to distinguish between the "kingdom group" and the "body of Christ," in this particular way, failed.

Furthermore, Nick’s attempt to distinguish between the “kingdom group” and the “body of Christ” by claiming the salvation of the “kingdom group” is future while the salvation of the “body of Christ” is present also failed, because Scripture reveals (see post #5) that salvation is spoken of as both a present reality and a future hope for both the “kingdom group” and the “body of Christ.” I have yet to see clear significant differences between these supposed groups.

Hi , and as you have said , you do not understand Dispensationalism and the bug in the ointment is Israel and not discerning the Body of Christ !!

dan p

 

[surrender]

Hi , and as you have said , you do not understand Dispensationalism and the bug in the ointment is Israel and not discerning the Body of Christ !!

dan p

I didn't say I don't understand dispensationalism. I do know Scripture and THAT is what guides me.

 

[DAN P]

I didn't say I don't understand dispensationalism. I do know Scripture and THAT is what guides me.

Hi , and if you know dispensationalism , start an OP and lets see what you have ??

dan p

 

[surrender]

Hi , and if you know dispensationalism , start an OP and lets see what you have ??

dan p

I am not the one advocating midacts dispensationalism. You are. You are obligated to prove your position to me. You have yet to accomplish that.

 

[DAN P]

I am not the one advocating midacts dispensationalism. You are. You are obligated to prove your position to me. You have yet to accomplish that.

Hi , and you will have a difficult time as you are a BABE in Christ , 1 Cor 3:1-3 , and do not have teeth to chew and are still a Milk Drinker !!

We all had to start somewhere and I started , some 50 years ago !!

dan p

 

[surrender]

Hi , and you will have a difficult time as you are a BABE in Christ , 1 Cor 3:1-3 , and do not have teeth to chew and are still a Milk Drinker !!

We all had to start somewhere and I started , some 50 years ago !!

dan p

I see that the only rebuttal you have left is mockery.

Your attempt to distinguish between the supposed “kingdom group” and the body of Christ has failed. I have yet to see clear, meaningful differences between the original disciples and those to whom they ministered and Paul and those to whom he ministered. Your attempt to show that the “kingdom group” will receive varying rewards with the “first last and last first” parable fails, because Rom. 2:5-7 and 1 Cor. 3:13-15 also reveal that the body of Christ will receive varying rewards. Your attempt to show that the salvation of the “kingdom group” is future while the salvation of the body of Christ is present also failed, because Scripture reveals that salvation is spoken of as both a present reality and a future hope for all believers.

Already:
“By grace you are saved through faith” (Eph. 2:8).
“In him we have redemption…” (Eph. 1:7-8).
“He has rescued us…and transferred us into the kingdom…we have redemption…” (Col. 1:13-14).
“He also raised us up…and seated us with him…” (Eph. 2:6).
“God has given us eternal life…” (1 John 5:11).
“…you have eternal life” (1 John 5:13).

Not yet:
“…salvation is nearer now that when we first believed” (Romans 13:11).
“And don’t grieve the Holy Spirit, who sealed you for the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30).
“…eagerly awaiting for adoption, the redemption of our bodies” (Rom. 8:23).