ECT JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF FOUNDED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

turbosixx

New member


In part II about Peter being given the keys of the kingdom, it isn’t about authority but about giving people access. He gave the keys to 3,000 on Pentecost .
Acts 2:14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them:…… 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
Three thousand souls were added because of Peters words. Where did these words come from? From Peter? No, the Holy Spirit.
Jn. 14:25 "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Jn. 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
Peter is not the only one given the Holy Spirit and isn’t the only one to preach the gospel giving people access to the kingdom.


Who took the role of authority in Acts 15? It wasn’t Peter.
Acts 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God……. 19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20but that we write to them….. 22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church,

Again, ZERO support for another notion about Peter.
 

Cruciform

New member
In part II about Peter being given the keys of the kingdom, it isn’t about authority but about giving people access. He gave the keys to 3,000 on Pentecost .
Acts 2:14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them:…… 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
Three thousand souls were added because of Peters words. Where did these words come from? From Peter? No, the Holy Spirit.
Jn. 14:25 "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Jn. 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
Peter is not the only one given the Holy Spirit and isn’t the only one to preach the gospel giving people access to the kingdom.


Who took the role of authority in Acts 15? It wasn’t Peter.
Acts 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God……. 19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20but that we write to them….. 22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, Again, ZERO support for another notion about Peter.
The interpretive opinions fed to you by your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect are noted. If you wish to message me, I'll gladly provide you with significant biblical evidence that utterly refutes your claims made here.
 

turbosixx

New member
your chosen recently-invented, man-made

Wrong, founded at Christ's DBR and first proclaimed at Pentecost.

non-Catholic

Yes, thankfully.

As STP pointed out, you viewing as a sect isn't a bad thing.

are noted.

By someone who doesn't go by the name of Christ, who goes to an extravagant building with a man's name on it, who asks a man for forgiveness, who prays to men, who buys and uses idols is also noted.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Rather, Christ himself declares that he will "build his Church," which he then proceeds to do by choosing and appointing apostles, who then ordained bishops to carry on their (the apostles') own ministry of guiding and teaching the faithful in Christ's own name and by his very authority.

To build means to construct. The word does not necessarily mean to build from scratch as you imply. We can build something new from something that exists simply by remodeling it.

Your interpretation of build is too presumptuous.

After this I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins and I will set it up so that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, even all the Gentiles who are called by My name says the LORD who does all these things.
(Acts 15:16-17)

On that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, and repair its damages. I will raise up its ruins and rebuild it as in the days of old that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the Gentiles who are called by My name says the LORD who does this thing. (Amos 9:11-12)

Edom was the brother of Jacob.
 

turbosixx

New member
for fifteen centuries before a single Protestant (non-Catholic) managed to stumble onto the scene.

You forget history. The "catholic church" is like the Jewish people. They were founded on the promises and had the law but by the time Jesus arrived, they had greatly perverted it. Men leaders always stray. There was even a time when they found the law in the temple and didn't know what it was until they read it. The leaders of your group have done the same thing, they have buried the truth with all of their writtings of MEN.
 

Cruciform

New member
How is that possible when the word is petra G4073 where as Peter is petros G4074?
It's quite simple:

"I understand your thinking," he said, "but you Catholics misunderstand this verse because you don’t know any Greek. That’s the trouble with your Church and with your scholars. You people don’t know the language in which the New Testament was written. To understand Matthew 16:18, we have to get behind the English to the Greek."

"Is that so?" I said, leading him on. I pretended to be ignorant of the trap being laid for me.

"Yes," he said. "In Greek, the word for rock is petra, which means a large, massive stone. The word used for Simon’s new name is different; it’s Petros, which means a little stone, a pebble."

In reality, what the missionary was telling me at this point was false. As Greek scholars—even non-Catholic ones—admit, the words petros and petra were synonyms in first century Greek. They meant "small stone" and "large rock" in some ancient Greek poetry, centuries before the time of Christ, but that distinction had disappeared from the language by the time Matthew’s Gospel was rendered in Greek. The difference in meaning can only be found in Attic Greek, but the New Testament was written in Koine Greek—an entirely different dialect. In Koine Greek, both petros and petra simply meant "rock." If Jesus had wanted to call Simon a small stone, the Greek lithos would have been used. The missionary’s argument didn’t work and showed a faulty knowledge of Greek. (For an Evangelical Protestant Greek scholar’s admission of this, see D. A. Carson, The Expositor’s Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984], Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., 8:368).

"You Catholics," the missionary continued, "because you don’t know Greek, imagine that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock. Actually, of course, it was just the opposite. He was contrasting them. On the one side, the rock on which the Church would be built, Jesus himself; on the other, this mere pebble. Jesus was really saying that he himself would be the foundation, and he was emphasizing that Simon wasn’t remotely qualified to be it."

"Case closed," he thought.

It was the missionary’s turn to pause and smile broadly. He had followed the training he had been given. He had been told that a rare Catholic might have heard of Matthew 16:18 and might argue that it proved the establishment of the papacy. He knew what he was supposed to say to prove otherwise, and he had said it.

"Well," I replied, beginning to use that nugget of information I had come across, "I agree with you that we must get behind the English to the Greek." He smiled some more and nodded. "But I’m sure you’ll agree with me that we must get behind the Greek to the Aramaic."

"The what?" he asked.

"The Aramaic," I said. "As you know, Aramaic was the language Jesus and the apostles and all the Jews in Palestine spoke. It was the common language of the place."

"I thought Greek was."

"No," I answered. "Many, if not most of them, knew Greek, of course, because Greek was the lingua franca of the Mediterranean world. It was the language of culture and commerce; and most of the books of the New Testament were written in it, because they were written not just for Christians in Palestine but also for Christians in places such as Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch, places where Aramaic wasn’t the spoken language.

"I say most of the New Testament was written in Greek, but not all. Many hold that Matthew was written in Aramaic—we know this from records kept by Eusebius of Caesarea—but it was translated into Greek early on, perhaps by Matthew himself. In any case the Aramaic original is lost (as are all the originals of the New Testament books), so all we have today is the Greek."

I stopped for a moment and looked at the missionary. He seemed a bit uncomfortable, perhaps doubting that I was a Catholic because I seemed to know what I was talking about. I continued.

Aramaic in the New Testament

"We know that Jesus spoke Aramaic because some of his words are preserved for us in the Gospels. Look at Matthew 27:46, where he says from the cross, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ That isn’t Greek; it’s Aramaic, and it means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’

"What’s more," I said, "in Paul’s epistles—four times in Galatians and four times in 1 Corinthians—we have the Aramaic form of Simon’s new name preserved for us. In our English Bibles it comes out as Cephas. That isn’t Greek. That’s a transliteration of the Aramaic word Kepha (rendered as Kephas in its Hellenistic form).

"And what does Kepha mean? It means a rock, the same as petra. (It doesn’t mean a little stone or a pebble. What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: ‘You are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church.’

"When you understand what the Aramaic says, you see that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock; he wasn’t contrasting them. We see this vividly in some modern English translations, which render the verse this way: ‘You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.’ In French one word, pierre, has always been used both for Simon’s new name and for the rock."

For a few moments the missionary seemed stumped. It was obvious he had never heard such a rejoinder. His brow was knit in thought as he tried to come up with a counter. Then it occurred to him.

"Wait a second," he said. "If kepha means the same as petra, why don’t we read in the Greek, ‘You are Petra, and on this petra I will build my Church’? Why, for Simon’s new name, does Matthew use a Greek word, Petros, which means something quite different from petra?"

"Because he had no choice," I said. "Greek and Aramaic have different grammatical structures. In Aramaic you can use kepha in both places in Matthew 16:18. In Greek you encounter a problem arising from the fact that nouns take differing gender endings.

"You have masculine, feminine, and neuter nouns. The Greek word petra is feminine. You can use it in the second half of Matthew 16:18 without any trouble. But you can’t use it as Simon’s new name, because you can’t give a man a feminine name—at least back then you couldn’t. You have to change the ending of the noun to make it masculine. When you do that, you get Petros, which was an already-existing word meaning rock.

"I admit that’s an imperfect rendering of the Aramaic; you lose part of the play on words. In English, where we have ‘Peter’ and ‘rock,’ you lose all of it. But that’s the best you can do in Greek."

Beyond the grammatical evidence, the structure of the narrative does not allow for a downplaying of Peter’s role in the Church. Look at the way Matthew 16:15-19 is structured. After Peter gives a confession about the identity of Jesus, the Lord does the same in return for Peter. Jesus does not say, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are an insignificant pebble and on this rock I will build my Church. . . . I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven." Jesus is giving Peter a three-fold blessing, including the gift of the keys to the kingdom, not undermining his authority. To say that Jesus is downplaying Peter flies in the face of the context. Jesus is installing Peter as a form of chief steward or prime minister under the King of Kings by giving him the keys to the kingdom. As can be seen in Isaiah 22:22, kings in the Old Testament appointed a chief steward to serve under them in a position of great authority to rule over the inhabitants of the kingdom. Jesus quotes almost verbatum from this passage in Isaiah, and so it is clear what he has in mind. He is raising Peter up as a father figure to the household of faith (Is. 22:21), to lead them and guide the flock (John 21:15-17). This authority of the prime minister under the king was passed on from one man to another down through the ages by the giving of the keys, which were worn on the shoulder as a sign of authority. Likewise, the authority of Peter has been passed down for 2000 years by means of the papacy.​
 

Cruciform

New member
Wrong, founded at Christ's DBR and first proclaimed at Pentecost.
My Mormon friend makes the very same claim. Is Mormonism, then, not a sect either?

As STP pointed out, you viewing as a sect isn't a bad thing.
It is when Jesus Christ said that he had only one historic Church (Mt. 16:18; 1 Tim. 3;15), and no more than one.

...who prays to men, who buys and uses idols is also noted.
Clearly, you have virtually no actual knowledge of Catholic teaching or practice. Sorry for your confusion.
 

Cruciform

New member
To build means to construct. The word does not necessarily mean to build from scratch as you imply. We can build something new from something that exists simply by remodeling it.
Your utter and baseless speculation is noted. :doh:
 

turbosixx

New member
It's quite simple:

"I understand your thinking," he said, "but you Catholics misunderstand this verse because you don’t know any Greek. That’s the trouble with your Church and with your scholars. You people don’t know the language in which the New Testament was written. To understand Matthew 16:18, we have to get behind the English to the Greek."

"Is that so?" I said, leading him on. I pretended to be ignorant of the trap being laid for me.

"Yes," he said. "In Greek, the word for rock is petra, which means a large, massive stone. The word used for Simon’s new name is different; it’s Petros, which means a little stone, a pebble."

In reality, what the missionary was telling me at this point was false. As Greek scholars—even non-Catholic ones—admit, the words petros and petra were synonyms in first century Greek. They meant "small stone" and "large rock" in some ancient Greek poetry, centuries before the time of Christ, but that distinction had disappeared from the language by the time Matthew’s Gospel was rendered in Greek. The difference in meaning can only be found in Attic Greek, but the New Testament was written in Koine Greek—an entirely different dialect. In Koine Greek, both petros and petra simply meant "rock." If Jesus had wanted to call Simon a small stone, the Greek lithos would have been used. The missionary’s argument didn’t work and showed a faulty knowledge of Greek. (For an Evangelical Protestant Greek scholar’s admission of this, see D. A. Carson, The Expositor’s Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984], Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., 8:368).

"You Catholics," the missionary continued, "because you don’t know Greek, imagine that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock. Actually, of course, it was just the opposite. He was contrasting them. On the one side, the rock on which the Church would be built, Jesus himself; on the other, this mere pebble. Jesus was really saying that he himself would be the foundation, and he was emphasizing that Simon wasn’t remotely qualified to be it."

"Case closed," he thought.

It was the missionary’s turn to pause and smile broadly. He had followed the training he had been given. He had been told that a rare Catholic might have heard of Matthew 16:18 and might argue that it proved the establishment of the papacy. He knew what he was supposed to say to prove otherwise, and he had said it.

"Well," I replied, beginning to use that nugget of information I had come across, "I agree with you that we must get behind the English to the Greek." He smiled some more and nodded. "But I’m sure you’ll agree with me that we must get behind the Greek to the Aramaic."

"The what?" he asked.

"The Aramaic," I said. "As you know, Aramaic was the language Jesus and the apostles and all the Jews in Palestine spoke. It was the common language of the place."

"I thought Greek was."

"No," I answered. "Many, if not most of them, knew Greek, of course, because Greek was the lingua franca of the Mediterranean world. It was the language of culture and commerce; and most of the books of the New Testament were written in it, because they were written not just for Christians in Palestine but also for Christians in places such as Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch, places where Aramaic wasn’t the spoken language.

"I say most of the New Testament was written in Greek, but not all. Many hold that Matthew was written in Aramaic—we know this from records kept by Eusebius of Caesarea—but it was translated into Greek early on, perhaps by Matthew himself. In any case the Aramaic original is lost (as are all the originals of the New Testament books), so all we have today is the Greek."

I stopped for a moment and looked at the missionary. He seemed a bit uncomfortable, perhaps doubting that I was a Catholic because I seemed to know what I was talking about. I continued.

Aramaic in the New Testament

"We know that Jesus spoke Aramaic because some of his words are preserved for us in the Gospels. Look at Matthew 27:46, where he says from the cross, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ That isn’t Greek; it’s Aramaic, and it means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’

"What’s more," I said, "in Paul’s epistles—four times in Galatians and four times in 1 Corinthians—we have the Aramaic form of Simon’s new name preserved for us. In our English Bibles it comes out as Cephas. That isn’t Greek. That’s a transliteration of the Aramaic word Kepha (rendered as Kephas in its Hellenistic form).

"And what does Kepha mean? It means a rock, the same as petra. (It doesn’t mean a little stone or a pebble. What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: ‘You are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church.’

"When you understand what the Aramaic says, you see that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock; he wasn’t contrasting them. We see this vividly in some modern English translations, which render the verse this way: ‘You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.’ In French one word, pierre, has always been used both for Simon’s new name and for the rock."

For a few moments the missionary seemed stumped. It was obvious he had never heard such a rejoinder. His brow was knit in thought as he tried to come up with a counter. Then it occurred to him.

"Wait a second," he said. "If kepha means the same as petra, why don’t we read in the Greek, ‘You are Petra, and on this petra I will build my Church’? Why, for Simon’s new name, does Matthew use a Greek word, Petros, which means something quite different from petra?"

"Because he had no choice," I said. "Greek and Aramaic have different grammatical structures. In Aramaic you can use kepha in both places in Matthew 16:18. In Greek you encounter a problem arising from the fact that nouns take differing gender endings.

"You have masculine, feminine, and neuter nouns. The Greek word petra is feminine. You can use it in the second half of Matthew 16:18 without any trouble. But you can’t use it as Simon’s new name, because you can’t give a man a feminine name—at least back then you couldn’t. You have to change the ending of the noun to make it masculine. When you do that, you get Petros, which was an already-existing word meaning rock.

"I admit that’s an imperfect rendering of the Aramaic; you lose part of the play on words. In English, where we have ‘Peter’ and ‘rock,’ you lose all of it. But that’s the best you can do in Greek."

Beyond the grammatical evidence, the structure of the narrative does not allow for a downplaying of Peter’s role in the Church. Look at the way Matthew 16:15-19 is structured. After Peter gives a confession about the identity of Jesus, the Lord does the same in return for Peter. Jesus does not say, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are an insignificant pebble and on this rock I will build my Church. . . . I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven." Jesus is giving Peter a three-fold blessing, including the gift of the keys to the kingdom, not undermining his authority. To say that Jesus is downplaying Peter flies in the face of the context. Jesus is installing Peter as a form of chief steward or prime minister under the King of Kings by giving him the keys to the kingdom. As can be seen in Isaiah 22:22, kings in the Old Testament appointed a chief steward to serve under them in a position of great authority to rule over the inhabitants of the kingdom. Jesus quotes almost verbatum from this passage in Isaiah, and so it is clear what he has in mind. He is raising Peter up as a father figure to the household of faith (Is. 22:21), to lead them and guide the flock (John 21:15-17). This authority of the prime minister under the king was passed on from one man to another down through the ages by the giving of the keys, which were worn on the shoulder as a sign of authority. Likewise, the authority of Peter has been passed down for 2000 years by means of the papacy.​

I haven't read all this yet but I will. For now, can you show me any other instance where Peter is referred to as Petra?
 

Cruciform

New member
You forget history. The "catholic church" is like the Jewish people. They were founded on the promises and had the law but by the time Jesus arrived, they had greatly perverted it.
If Jesus' one historic Church has ever been "perverted" in her teachings, then Jesus Christ is a liar in Matthew 16:18 and 1 Tim. 3:15. Your claim here is categorically contrary to the express declaration of Jesus Christ himself. I'll go with Christ's one historic Church over the opinions of your chosen man-made sect every time.

Men leaders always stray.
Individuals sometimes stray. Christ's Church---the Magisterium comprised of its apostles/bishops---can no more stray than can Christ himself (Lk. 10;16; 1 Tim. 3:15).
 

turbosixx

New member
Yes---every time he is referred to as "Cephas" in the New Testament, Peter is being called "Rock."

But I know of ZERO places in the original Greek where he is referred to as Petra. Even when Jesus and Paul are getting on him he is still Petro.
 

turbosixx

New member

I’m just suggesting to you that the inspired writers always use Petros when referring to Peter, never petras. As far as I know, no languages ever use the feminine when referring to a man. When referring to Christ as the rock, the inspired writers always use petra. There is supporting scripture referring to Christ as the rock, but there is zero supporting scripture that Peter is a rock. If you have one, I would be glad to read it.
 
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turbosixx

New member
My Mormon friend makes the very same claim. Is Mormonism, then, not a sect either?

Yes, Mormonism is a group that seeks to divide that which cannot be divided. The Catholics are the same. They go by a name other than the one who bought them and they have writtings in addition to writtings we know to be inspired


It is when Jesus Christ said that he had only one historic Church (Mt. 16:18; 1 Tim. 3;15), and no more than one.

You are correct, there is only one church.


Clearly, you have virtually no actual knowledge of Catholic teaching or practice. Sorry for your confusion.[/FONT]

I know enough. I married a Catholic girl. She was like 99% of the Catholics I’ve met, didn't go to "mass" and didn't know God's word but knew the teachings of the "church" which are not found in the bible. Her mother also had graven images of Jesus on the cross.

I also went to “mass” with them a few times and having been a member of Christ’s church since I was 13, I can without a doubt say the “Catholic” church is not Christ’s church.
 

turbosixx

New member
your chosen man-made sect

Can you prove my "sect" is man made?


I'll start.

You follow men and not Jesus. Jesus said preach the gospel and baptize those who believe.
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Then we see the apostles do just that.
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.


Does your group baptize believers like Jesus said?
 
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