ECT Lost or saved?

[Choleric]

I have an interesting question that I would like to pose for the Christians here. We have an example from scripture of some folks and there is a debate as to whether they died saved or lost. I am interested in opinion (backed up by scripture) on the matter:

Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
Joh 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

We are told in certain scriptures that one only has to believe (Acts 16:31). Which is true.

Yet we are also told we must confess, and not deny Him before men or He will deny us before the Father.

Did these men in John 12 die lost or saved? Why?


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[chrysostom]

guessing as to who is saved or lost is not a good thing
-this is not our job

 

[Danoh]

Deuteronomy 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? 4:9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons; 4:10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.

The nation Israel's relationship with God was a corporate one - Israel had truly been one nation under God by Covenant with Him from their very infancy and bringing up, under Torah.

And their confession of the God of their fathers was to be as one; as was their blessings and cursings under that system.

Deuteronomy 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 28:2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

Deuteronomy 28:10 And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee.

Deuteronomy 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: 28:16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.

When their Messiah shewed up, that was still the rule and their public submission to water baptism before their nation - for their nation to see - separated them from those of their nation as being those agreed with God.

Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

This resulted in all sorts of conflict between them.

Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

This atmosphere is what passages like the one you cited are being played out in - out side of this understanding - that passage you cited will be misunderstood.

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The more astute Bible student will note that the Lord has just described said kingdom of God as populated by believing and unbelieving Israelites.

Thus, the later question, in vese 6, below...

Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

All that would gradually begin to change with the saving and raising up of an Apostle rather odd in light of all that - an Apostle of the Gentiles.

The Gentiles never having been part of the above nation's direct, one nation under God, Covenant relationship with Him, Gen. 11; Acts 17; Rom. 1-3; Eph. 2.

But that is...another study.

 

[turbosixx]

I have an interesting question that I would like to pose for the Christians here. We have an example from scripture of some folks and there is a debate as to whether they died saved or lost. I am interested in opinion (backed up by scripture) on the matter:

Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
Joh 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

We are told in certain scriptures that one only has to believe (Acts 16:31). Which is true.

Yet we are also told we must confess, and not deny Him before men or He will deny us before the Father.

Did these men in John 12 die lost or saved? Why?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good question but there is a flaw in it. Acts 16:31 nor any other scripture says we "only" have to believe or "all" we have to do is believe. I would say the men in Jn. 12 are a good example that belief is more than just mental understanding. When the bible says "believe", the one who truly believes will obey. Obedience is belief and disobedience is unbelief.

Jn. 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Heb. 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

 

[Danoh]

Good question but there is a flaw in it. Acts 16:31 nor any other scripture says we "only" have to believe or "all" we have to do is believe. I would say the men in Jn. 12 are a good example that belief is more than just mental understanding. When the bible says "believe", the one who truly believes will obey. Obedience is belief and disobedience is unbelief.

Jn. 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Heb. 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

As usual, Turbosixx NEVER MIND the overall scope and context of Matthew thru John, nor of Hebrews, in its HEBREWS :doh: relationship to that...

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 10:11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 10:12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

 

[jamie]

We are told in certain scriptures that one only has to believe (Acts 16:31). Which is true.

A person must believe in something in order to have faith in it. Faith is demonstrated by action as in the case of Abraham's sacrifice.

We are saved by Christ's grace through faith in his ability to save us.

 

[Choleric]

Deuteronomy 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? 4:9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons; 4:10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.

The nation Israel's relationship with God was a corporate one - Israel had truly been one nation under God by Covenant with Him from their very infancy and bringing up, under Torah.

And their confession of the God of their fathers was to be as one; as was their blessings and cursings under that system.

Deuteronomy 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 28:2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

Deuteronomy 28:10 And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee.

Deuteronomy 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: 28:16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.

When their Messiah shewed up, that was still the rule and their public submission to water baptism before their nation - for their nation to see - separated them from those of their nation as being those agreed with God.

Luke 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

This resulted in all sorts of conflict between them.

Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

This atmosphere is what passages like the one you cited are being played out in - out side of this understanding - that passage you cited will be misunderstood.

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The more astute Bible student will note that the Lord has just described said kingdom of God as populated by believing and unbelieving Israelites.

Thus, the later question, in vese 6, below...

Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

All that would gradually begin to change with the saving and raising up of an Apostle rather odd in light of all that - an Apostle of the Gentiles.

The Gentiles never having been part of the above nation's direct, one nation under God, Covenant relationship with Him, Gen. 11; Acts 17; Rom. 1-3; Eph. 2.

But that is...another study.

I appreciate the response, but did you come to a conclusion as to those men? Are you saying that they did not confess Him and were not saved?

 

[Choleric]

Good question but there is a flaw in it. Acts 16:31 nor any other scripture says we "only" have to believe or "all" we have to do is believe. I would say the men in Jn. 12 are a good example that belief is more than just mental understanding. When the bible says "believe", the one who truly believes will obey. Obedience is belief and disobedience is unbelief.

Jn. 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Heb. 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

I agree. I can't think of any better fulfillment of the verses that speak of "if thou will confess with thy mouth" and "if you deny me before men, I will deny you before my Father".

I think their pride kept them lost. While salvation is by grace through faith without works, these men still had to repent of their "dead works" and confess Christ.

 

[Danoh]

I appreciate the response, but did you come to a conclusion as to those men? Are you saying that they did not confess Him and were not saved?

:doh:

 

[Totton Linnet]

They must have said something to someone or how would John have known? is not Nicodemas among them? Joseph of Arimithea?

 

[Choleric]

They must have said something to someone or how would John have known?

True, but I think God put that story there for a reason. I think it is our best example of "confess".

is not Nicodemas among them? Joseph of Arimithea?

I think nicodemas and Joseph made their faith public and were counted among Jesus' followers. These particular scribes and Pharisees stuck it out with the law.

To bring in a modern example, let's say a guy is in church. The Holy Spirit has him convinced he is lost and needs to get saved. He knows Jesus is the Son of God and he needs to be saved.

But his friends think he is already saved. His pride keeps him from really getting saved because his friends think he has been for years. He doesn't want everyone to know he was a phony. He stays in his seat and resists the HS. He does lost, even though he believed what was needed, he never acted on that belief.

 

[Nick M]

To believe the gospel is to trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. However, they were bound by circumcision.

Romans 10

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is possible they trusted him after hearing Paul's gospel, and were included in the remnant. Or they are in Abraham's bosom and remained in their calling and were at meeting in Acts 15, the sects of Pharisees that believed. If they did their duty, they are in Abraham's bosom waiting for what chrysostom will never see. That is my opinion, but there is not enough information to know.

Acts 15

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

 

[Danoh]

To believe the gospel is to trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. However, they were bound by circumcision.

Romans 10

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is possible they trusted him after hearing Paul's gospel, and were included in the remnant. Or they are in Abraham's bosom and remained in their calling and were at meeting in Acts 15, the sects of Pharisees that believed. If they did their duty, they are in Abraham's bosom waiting for what chrysostom will never see. That is my opinion, but there is not enough information to know.

Acts 15

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

The believing remnant had already been sealed and the rest of Israel concluded having continued in spiritual UNcircumcision, concluded such by the Law they failed to keep in their failure to believe Moses that Jesus was the Christ...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Paul's "gospel of the UNcircumcision" Gal. 2:7-9, being their only option, as "heathen" now, with the Gentiles...

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Those believing Paul's gospel would be Body members and would not be promoting the need for circumcision and keeping the Law in order to be saved.

In fact, the following was not just a rumour...

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

My opinion would be since Christ was preaching to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, He was preaching the Kingdom Message to them and them alone. So, when the Scriptures spoke of confessing Him before men, they were bound by what He said during that period of time. Therefore, I would be of the opinion that if they didn't do as Christ said, they weren't saved. However, in Romans 10:9 it states: " That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Now, if we look at this verse logically it does appear as if Paul (The Apostle to the Gentiles) is basically saying the same thing as the Gospels were saying? That being, we must confess with our mouth that Jesus is the one and only Lord. There may be a correlation between what Christ was saying and what Paul was
saying?

So, in conclusion, I would say that ALL believers in Christ need to confess Him before our fellow man. After all, if Christ is in our heart why would we deny Him before men? A true believer should have no trouble doing this.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

My opinion would be since Christ was preaching to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, He was preaching the Kingdom Message to them and them alone. So, when the Scriptures spoke of confessing Him before men, they were bound by what He said during that period of time. Therefore, I would be of the opinion that if they didn't do as Christ said, they weren't saved. However, in Romans 10:9 it states: " That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Now, if we look at this verse logically it does appear as if Paul (The Apostle to the Gentiles) is basically saying the same thing as the Gospels were saying? That being, we must confess with our mouth that Jesus is the one and only Lord. There may be a correlation between what Christ was saying and what Paul was
saying?

So, in conclusion, I would say that ALL believers in Christ need to confess Him before our fellow man. After all, if Christ is in our heart why would we deny Him before men? A true believer should have no trouble doing this.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

 

[Danoh]

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

So what is this turning of ungodliness FROM JACOB?

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.

When is it? At the Lord's return "unto them" after that time OF JACOB's Trouble...

Isaiah 60:2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 60:3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Romans 9-11 is relating the issue of what became of Israel UNTIL THEN, that the salvation of God among the Gentiles that had been prophesied would follow Israel's rise first, has ended up going not only directly to the Gentiles; but through Israel's prophesied temporary fall first, instead.

In this, Romans 11:25 is relating a mystery; enigma; or seeming perplexity - that God is visiting Gentiles directly during this time of Israel's temporary fall.

For this visit among the Gentiles during Israel's temporary fall; though in agreement with the fact of Israel's Prophesied temporay fall, while in no way in violation of His Covenant unto Israel; had nevertheless, not been prophesied. Thus, its enigma.

In this, passages like that one in Matthew 15:8 , and Acts 1-7, are the faith that Romans 10 is referring to and that unbelieving Israel failed to hear.

The principle of faith is ever the same throughout each successive dispensation or stewardship; but the content differs in each, because the content continues to unfold, and as a result; differ in each.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

 

[Nick M]

Acts 15

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

 

[turbosixx]

Acts 15

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

At the end of the debate, did they determine it was necessary for them to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

In this, Romans 11:25 is relating a mystery; enigma; or seeming perplexity - that God is visiting Gentiles directly during this time of Israel's temporary fall.

For this visit among the Gentiles during Israel's temporary fall; though in agreement with the fact of Israel's Prophesied temporay fall, while in no way in violation of His Covenant unto Israel; had nevertheless, not been prophesied. Thus, its enigma.

There was nothing temporary about it--

Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

The third which survived began the Churches--

Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

and the third has an end in our future---

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

 

[DAN P]

I have an interesting question that I would like to pose for the Christians here. We have an example from scripture of some folks and there is a debate as to whether they died saved or lost. I am interested in opinion (backed up by scripture) on the matter:

Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
Joh 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

We are told in certain scriptures that one only has to believe (Acts 16:31). Which is true.

Yet we are also told we must confess, and not deny Him before men or He will deny us before the Father.

Did these men in John 12 die lost or saved? Why?


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Hi and why not tell us how you were SAVED ??!!

First the John 12 passages can be explained by CONTEXT which most Low Informational students refuse to exercise !!

So , how were you SAVED with verses IF you can !!