ECT MARTIN LUTHER ON OBEDIENCE TO THE CHURCH

[oatmeal]

Or---as all heretics ultimately do---he chose to depart from the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Church and presumed to make doctrine up for himself based upon his subjective and non-authoritative interpretations of the Bible.


Once again, oats presumes to publicly comment on things he knows exactly nothing about.

• Just another Straw Man Fallacy on your part.
• Rather, you prefer the heterodox 16th-century Protestant invention known as sola scriptura to the historic Christian doctrine referred to as sola Dei verbum ("God's word alone").

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Your organization is basically afraid of scripture.

If you were serious about scripture, you would have welcomed the truth Martin Luther and other men of God taught and would have welcomed the insight and changed your tune.

However, you did not.

 

[Cruciform]

Your organization is basically afraid of scripture.If you were serious about scripture, you would have welcomed the truth Martin Luther and other men of God taught and would have welcomed the insight and changed your tune.However, you did not.

Already answered (Post #59).

 

[Totton Linnet]

Your utterly imaginary scenario here is simply and demonstrably false. Bishops were already in a position of authoritative leadership in the Church from the very beginning, a fact that is unambiguously demonstrated in the New Testament itself---for example, in Ac. 15:2, 6; 16:4).



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

They were never to be obeyed as though they were the person of Christ...neither Peter or Paul took such power upon themselves

 

[Cruciform]

They were never to be obeyed as though they were the person of Christ...neither Peter or Paul took such power upon themselves

Please cite the biblical text which shows a lay believer placing his own theological opinions over the authoritative doctrines delivered to the faithful by the apostles and bishops of the early Church.

 

[6days]

Please cite the biblical text which shows a lay believer placing his own theological opinions over the authoritative doctrines delivered to the faithful by the apostles and bishops of the early Church.

Matthew 23:33.... Not sure this person qualifies as a layperson. ....He was not a levitical priest and shot down those who had become religious and ritualistic.

 

[oatmeal]

Already answered (Post #59).

You call that an answer?

Your organization has no authority based on God's word.

Any fool can claim what you call authority by the method you claim authority.

Martin Luther had the authority of scripture.

Your organization chose to murder him.

God protected him from your evil intents

 

[Cruciform]

Matthew 23:33.... Not sure this person qualifies as a layperson. ....He was not a levitical priest and shot down those who had become religious and ritualistic.

Sorry but your example doesn't apply, since my question was about lay believers in the New Covenant Church, not in Old Covenant Judaism.

 

[Cruciform]

You call that an answer?

It's all the answer that's necessary.

Your organization has no authority based on God's word.

Try again.

Martin Luther had the authority of scripture.

He did? Then why did his fellow "reformers"---Zwingli and Calvin---reject various of Luther's personal interpretations of the Bible, preferring their "authority of Scripture" over his? :think:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[everready]

These heretics of yours all have one thing in common, they finally realized this

Martin Luther
(1483-1546) (Lutheran)

"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from "The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers," Vol. 2, pg. 121 by Froom.


everready

 

[Cruciform]

These heretics of yours all have one thing in common, they finally realized this..."We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist."

Yes, various formal heretics since the 16th-century Protestant Rebellion have claimed just that---thus tacitly asserting that Jesus Christ is a categorical liar in Matthew 16:18. Congratulations. You're in some great company there. :hammer:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Totton Linnet]

Please cite the biblical text which shows a lay believer placing his own theological opinions over the authoritative doctrines delivered to the faithful by the apostles and bishops of the early Church.

There is no such a thing as a lay person, the clergy,episcopalianism is the usurpation. We are a nation of brethren with one Lord.

 

[oatmeal]

There is no such a thing as a lay person, the clergy,episcopalianism is the usurpation. We are a nation of brethren with one Lord.

II Corinthians 5:18 is clear that all believers are called to be ministers, for God has given to us the ministry of reconciliation.

Not only has he given to us the ministry of reconciliation, He has committed to us the word of reconciliation to enable us to reconcile.

II Corinthians 5:19

 

[oatmeal]

It's all the answer that's necessary.


Try again.


He did? Then why did his fellow "reformers"---Zwingli and Calvin---reject various of Luther's personal interpretations of the Bible, preferring their "authority of Scripture" over his? :think:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Look how many people reject your philosophies, by your logic, that is proof that you are wrong.

However, people's rejection is not proof, but scripture is proof that you have rejected scripture, even as you rejected the men and women of God that teach scripture.

Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees that reject that commandments of God that you might keep your traditions.

 

[Cruciform]

There is no such a thing as a lay person, the clergy,episcopalianism is the usurpation.

The moment that Jesus Christ himself chose and appointed twelve apostles---who then proceeded to choose and ordain successors (bishops)---there was in fact a functional distinction between the Magisterium and the laity. Try again.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

II Corinthians 5:18 is clear that all believers are called to be ministers, for God has given to us the ministry of reconciliation. Not only has he given to us the ministry of reconciliation, He has committed to us the word of reconciliation to enable us to reconcile.

These statements refer specifically to the apostles/bishops of Christ's one historic Church, as the context plainly shows (2 Cor. 5:11-15, 20-21 ~ the "we"/"you" contrast). They do not apply to laymen like yoursef. Try again.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

Look how many people reject your philosophies, by your logic, that is proof that you are wrong. However, people's rejection is not proof...

Good, you've rightly refuted yourself.

...but scripture is proof that you have rejected scripture, even as you rejected the men and women of God that teach scripture. Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees that reject that commandments of God that you might keep your traditions.

Readers should note that oats has said absolutely nothing to actually disprove a single statement in Post #68 above. He has exactly nothing.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Totton Linnet]

The moment that Jesus Christ himself chose and appointed twelve apostles---who then proceeded to choose and ordain successors (bishops)---there was in fact a functional distinction between the Magisterium and the laity. Try again.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

They are chosen to minister not to lord it over anybody's faith. Moreover they do not appoint successors, bishops and elders are appointed by the assembly.

 

[Cruciform]

They are chosen to minister not to lord it over anybody's faith.

The formal teachings of the Magisterium (apostles/bishops) are to be affirmed and followed by the faithful, just as was the case in the New Testament as well (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 16:4; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Jn. 4:6). If this is "lording it over" one's faith, then it has been the teaching of Jesus Christ, the apostles, and the bishops of the early Christian Church all along.

Seems to me that you just don't like the idea of having to obey anyone placed over you. It's often difficult for us Americans in particular (we don't like the notion of "obedience"). However, Jesus is our King, not our president, and we laymen just plain don't get a vote on doctrine and morals. Christ's one historic Church is not now---nor has it ever been---a democracy. You might want to get used to that fact.

Moreover they do not appoint successors, bishops and elders are appointed by the assembly.

Try again.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Totton Linnet]

The formal teachings of the Magisterium (apostles/bishops) are to be affirmed and followed by the faithful, just as was the case in the New Testament as well (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 16:4; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Jn. 4:6). If this is "lording it over" one's faith, then it has been the teaching of Jesus Christ, the apostles, and the bishops of the early Christian Church all along.

Seems to me that you just don't like the idea of having to obey anyone placed over you. It's often difficult for us Americans in particular (we don't like the notion of "obedience"). However, Jesus is our King, not our president, and we laymen just plain don't get a vote on doctrine and morals. Christ's one historic Church is not now---nor has it ever been---a democracy. You might want to get used to that fact.


Try again.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

When I was saved I was saved by Jesus, the work was done by the Holy Ghost, I accept Him as my Lord and am submitted to Him, insomuch as it may be His will to submit to others I may submit to them. You refuse the direct rule of Christ in your life.

You rather follow these men who are appointed by man but not God. They say as long as you attend the sacrament you will belong to His church [even though you may live like the devil] they have nothing to do with me that I should submit to them.

They are thieves and robbers.

 

[Cruciform]

When I was saved I was saved by Jesus, the work was done by the Holy Ghost, I accept Him as my Lord and am submitted to Him, insomuch as it may be His will to submit to others I may submit to them. You refuse the direct rule of Christ in your life.

No more than you do, friend. The simple fact is that you "submit to Christ" precisely in accordance with what you have been taught by your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect, just as I submit to Christ within the context of the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Catholic Church. Either way, we each follow Christ according to the dictates of our respective doctrinal traditions, you no less than I. Thus, if I (in your words) "refuse the direct rule of Christ in my life," then so, my friend, do you.

You rather follow these men who are appointed by man but not God.

See above.


Back to Post #78.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+