May I ask...

[Hoping]

Anti something, for sure.

Eph 2 seems to make a point of informing its readers that there is no difference between Jewish and Gentile readers.
We Gentiles are... "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;" (Eph 2:19)
How can there be any more separation?
Gentiles, as well as Jews, have been freed from the Law.
"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" (Eph 2:14-15)

 

[way 2 go]

Thank you.
Circumcision, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, and dietary rules were certainly written against by Paul.
Col. 2 provides some further evidence.
With the final atonement for sin provided by Christ's blood, days of atonement and sacrifices for sins were also dismissed.
Not to mention sin itself.

works of the law are your work around for the contradiction between James and Paul
but you would be wrong ,these verses are not talking about works of the law

Paul says by faith alone , James says faith + works

(Ephesians 2:8-10) [8] For by grace are all of you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

(Romans 4:3-5) [3] For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


(James 2:14-15) [14] What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
(James 2:17) Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[Derf]

You quote Paul saying:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

Then you quote James saying:

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food

Which ends with this verse you left out:
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

And then you can say with a straight face:

Paul says by faith alone , James says faith + works

???

 

[Hoping]

works of the law are your work around for the contradiction between James and Paul
but you would be wrong ,these verses are not talking about works of the law
Paul says by faith alone , James says faith + works

That is why you see a contradiction.
You can't see that Paul's "works" are "of the Law".
Six times Paul writes of the works of the Law...

1. Romans 3:27-28
   Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
2. Romans 9:32
3. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
   Galatians 2:16
4. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
   Galatians 3:2
5. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
   Galatians 3:5
6. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
   Galatians 3:10
7. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

(Ephesians 2:8-10) [8] For by grace are all of you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

Verse 10 is in agreement with James, as it says..."For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,..."
Not the works of the Law, but manifestations of our love for God and our neighbors.

(Romans 4:3-5) [3] For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

See how that piggy-backs off of Rom 3:27-28 above?
"Deeds of the Law"?

(James 2:14-15) [14] What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? can faith save him? [15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
(James 2:17) Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

James is not talking about the Law, but about manifestations of the faith by which men are eventually saved.
Paul is talking about the Law, and how it is no longer part of conversion or salvation.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You quote Paul saying:

Then you quote James saying:

Which ends with this verse you left out:
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

And then you can say with a straight face:


???

I don't see the problem.

Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. - Romans 3:28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:28&version=NKJV

"by faith apart from the deeds of the law" = faith alone, no works

James says a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. - James 2:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:24&version=NKJV

"by works, and not by faith only" = works + faith

Things that are different are not the same.

That is why you see a contradiction.

We see a contradiction because, if Paul and James are preaching the same message, they do, in fact, contradict. Supra.

It's how we know they are not preaching the same message.

Things that differ, and all that...

You can't see that Paul's "works" are "of the Law".

Works means "effort."

To use an analogy:

Paul says that a man must let go of the rope that he is climbing to get to heaven, and let Christ carry him.
James says that a man must keep climbing the rope until he dies, while having faith that God will save him.

See the difference?

Six times Paul writes of the works of the Law...

1. Romans 3:27-28
   Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
2. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
3. Romans 9:32
4. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
   Galatians 2:16
5. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
   Galatians 3:2
6. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
   Galatians 3:5
7. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
   Galatians 3:10
8. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Verse 10 is in agreement with James, as it says..."For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,..."

"Unto good works" means that they are not part of our salvation, because they are done AFTER we are saved.

Not the works of the Law, but manifestations of our love for God and our neighbors.

Yes, those are "works."

As Paul rightly stated:

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” - Galatians 5:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians5:14&version=NKJV

That's what the law is! It's an expression of what love is. Thus, attempting to KEEP ANY LAW, be it the Mosaic Law, or otherwise, is a "work."

See how that piggy-backs off of Rom 3:27-28 above?
"Deeds of the Law"?

"Deeds of the law" is just another way of saying "works."

James is not talking about the Law, but about manifestations of the faith by which men are eventually saved.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Notice how you can't even quote James.

Good thing I did so above.

Again: Paul says we (in the Body of Christ) are justified by faith apart from works (of ANY law).
James says we are justified by works, and not by faith only.

Paul is talking about the Law, and how it is no longer part of conversion or salvation.

Paul is saying that we do not have to KEEP the law in order to be saved.

James is saying that one must keep the law, AND have faith, in order to achieve salvation.

Things that differ are not the same.

 

[Hoping]

I don't see the problem.
Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works.

Agreed.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. - Romans 3:28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:28&version=NKJV
"by faith apart from the deeds of the law" = faith alone, no works

No deed of the Law is necessary for salvation.
Paul fought against circumcision primarily, but also against dietary rules, sabbath keeping, and tithing too.

James says a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Not the Law's works.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. - James 2:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:24&version=NKJV
"by works, and not by faith only" = works + faith

Not the Law's works.
The adherence to the anti-works doctrines has inadvertently out-lawed repentance from sin and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Not to mention simply telling the truth at all times.

Things that are different are not the same.

Agreed.
Paul and James were talking about different things, both of which excluded Law keeping.

We see a contradiction because, if Paul and James are preaching the same message, they do, in fact, contradict.

They are both referring to works, but only Paul's works are of the Law.
James' are the manifestation of conversion.

It's how we know they are not preaching the same message.
Things that differ, and all that...

Supra.

Works means "effort."

It can, if the context determines it.

To use an analogy:
Paul says that a man must let go of the rope that he is climbing to get to heaven, and let Christ carry him.
James says that a man must keep climbing the rope until he dies, while having faith that God will save him.

Right, on Paul.
James, however, is saying if Jesus is carrying you, you had better be carrying others with you.

See the difference?

Yes.
Do you?

"Unto good works" means that they are not part of our salvation, because they are done AFTER we are saved.

Right, James' message.

Yes, those are "works."

Not of the Law.
Were the early convert's Acts 2 donations to the apostles "works" for salvation?
Or were they works "because" of love for God and neighbors?

As Paul rightly stated:
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” - Galatians 5:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians5:14&version=NKJV

Some will erroneously see loving as a "work".
And will abstain from it

That's what the law is! It's an expression of what love is. Thus, attempting to KEEP ANY LAW, be it the Mosaic Law, or otherwise, is a "work."

If keeping a law truly is an expression of love, it will come naturally to those with Christ in their heart.
Like telling the truth, or buying instead of stealing.
They come naturally to those who have been reborn of God's seed.

Deeds of the law" is just another way of saying "works."

If you mean works of the Law, I agree.

Notice how you can't even quote James.

?
I wasn't quoting James.

Good thing I did so above.

OK.

Again: Paul says we (in the Body of Christ) are justified by faith apart from works (of ANY law).

Amen.

James says we are justified by works, and not by faith only.

Just like Abraham and Rahab were.
Faith, manifested by action.

Paul is saying that we do not have to KEEP the law in order to be saved.

Agreed.
Circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, etc., won't save.

James is saying that one must keep the law, AND have faith, in order to achieve salvation.

No liars are going to heaven.
Neither are any who ignore the needy or hungry.
Manifest your faith with action.

Things that differ are not the same.

Amen to that.
Paul says the Law cannot save.
James says manifest your faith with action.
It is written..."Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." (Matt 25:34-40)

What happens to those who do not manifest their faith or love for God and neighbor?
Jesus answered that..."Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matt 25:41-46)

Got faith?

 

[Derf]

James, however, is saying if Jesus is carrying you, you had better be carrying others with you.

More that you can't help carrying others with you, or you should question your faith.

 

[Derf]

I don't see the problem.

With a divisive theology? You should.

Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. - Romans 3:28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:28&version=NKJV

"by faith apart from the deeds of the law" = faith alone, no works

Not all works are deeds of the law, nor are we to trust in our works, else Paul is duplicitous when he commands works.

James says a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. - James 2:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:24&version=NKJV

"by works, and not by faith only" = works + faith

No, James specifically says, "Can that kind of faith save that doesn't have any works?" He, like Paul, is saying faith saves, not works. But like Paul, he notes that we are saved to good works. Can it save? a faith that produces no works? James says that kind if faith is powerless to save, and Paul agrees.

Things that are different are not the same.

A useless tautology. Why do you derive comfort from it?

We see a contradiction because, if Paul and James are preaching the same message, they do, in fact, contradict. Supra.

They are preaching the same gospel, different focus.

It's how we know they are not preaching the same message.

Things that differ, and all that...

And all that tautology, right.

Works means "effort."

To use an analogy:

Paul says that a man must let go of the rope that he is climbing to get to heaven, and let Christ carry him.
James says that a man must keep climbing the rope until he dies, while having faith that God will save him.

See the difference?



"Unto good works" means that they are not part of our salvation, because they are done AFTER we are saved.

James says the same. Now that you are saved, check your works.

Yes, those are "works."

As Paul rightly stated:

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” - Galatians 5:14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians5:14&version=NKJV

That's what the law is! It's an expression of what love is. Thus, attempting to KEEP ANY LAW, be it the Mosaic Law, or otherwise, is a "work."



"Deeds of the law" is just another way of saying "works."



Saying it doesn't make it so.

Notice how you can't even quote James.

Good thing I did so above.

Again: Paul says we (in the Body of Christ) are justified by faith apart from works (of ANY law).
James says we are justified by works, and not by faith only.



Paul is saying that we do not have to KEEP the law in order to be saved.

James is saying that one must keep the law, AND have faith, in order to achieve salvation.

Different laws...and things that are different are not the same, remember?
James 1:25 (KJV)
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:12 (KJV)
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Paul too:
Romans 8:2 (KJV)
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If it makes one free, it is a law of liberty. Paul snd James are in sync.

Things that differ are not the same.

By which you have proved nothing.

 

[way 2 go]

You quote Paul saying:

Then you quote James saying:

Which ends with this verse you left out:
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

(Romans 4:4) But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt.

And then you can say with a straight face:


???

​

​

(Romans 4:3) For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

 

[way 2 go]

That is why you see a contradiction.
You can't see that Paul's "works" are "of the Law".
Six times Paul writes of the works of the Law...

so here you read we have not by works of the law and then works of the law
even tho the law is not mentioned
I edited it for you

(Ephesians 2:8-10) [8] For by grace are all of you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works of the law, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works of the law, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

no , you're wrong

James is not talking about the Law, but about manifestations of the faith by which men are eventually saved.

and there it is "saved by works"

Paul is talking about the Law, and how it is no longer part of conversion or salvation.

no.
by faith alone like Abraham

(Romans 4:3-5) [3] For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Hoping]

so here you read we have not by works of the law and then works of the law
even tho the law is not mentioned
I edited it for you
(Ephesians 2:8-10) [8] For by grace are all of you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works of the law, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works of the law, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.
no , you're wrong

Eph 2:9's works are "of the Law", but Eph 2:10's works are like James' works...plain old giving glory to God by obedience to Him by loving our neighbors as we love ourselves.
V. 9's circumcision and dietary rules are different than v. 10's feeding and clothing the destitute.

and there it is "saved by works"

Proof of conversion is not the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.
Can you tell them apart?
Or are even "hearing the word of the gospel", "believing in your heart that Jesus rose from the dead", and "saying Rom 10:9's confession with thy mouth the Lord Jesus" also works to be shunned?

no.
by faith alone like Abraham

Like Abraham, without the Law, he obeyed the requirements placed upon him.
So too must we.

(Romans 4:3-5) [3] For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I celebrate the passing away of the Law's hundreds of things that do not save men.
Like the old "Sabbath days walking distance".
And the old "no fire lighting on the Sabbath".
And no eating of bacon or ham.
Do those really equate to feeding the hungry and clothing the naked to you?

If you are a Christian, serving one another should be bringing you great joy instead of the fear of "works".

 

[Derf]

(Romans 4:4) But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt.

And your point is?

​

​

(Romans 4:3) For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

What about this verse do you think speaks against what I wrote?

Do you really think just quoting a scripture without any explanation is going to be effective? As if I never saw that scripture before? As if nobody who disagrees with your view ever saw it before?

 

[Stripe]

Hi.
May I ask what is the main draw of mid-Acts-dispensationalism?
Is there something about it that other sects are missing out on?
What/where is the profit in following it?

It seems to fit the narrative the best.

 

[Derf]

It seems to fit the narrative the best.

Thanks for answering so succinctly, Stripe. I agree that much of it fits the narrative, but not all.

 

[Stripe]

Thanks for answering so succinctly, Stripe. I agree that much of it fits the narrative, but not all.

What aspects?

 

[Hoping]

It seems to fit the narrative the best.

If someone tells you what the narrative is before presenting the writings, it will always seem so.
I could guess other groups would say the same thing.
Catholics make the writings fit their dogma, and so do the Baptists.

Thanks for your POV though.

 

[JudgeRightly]

If someone tells you what the narrative is before presenting the writings, it will always seem so.
I could guess other groups would say the same thing.
Catholics make the writings fit their dogma, and so do the Baptists.

Thanks for your POV though.

Presenting the scriptures IS presenting the narrative.

 

[Derf]

What aspects?

That Paul and other NT writers were not only targeting different people groups, but also were propagating different gospels, which Paul anathematized.

That the Jews could achieve salvation by persevering, but others didn't have to.

That there was competition between the 12 apostles vs Paul--to get converts into the different church types.

That Peter was trying to follow the law sporadically because it helped save him, instead of only because it made him look good to the judaizers.

That John would spend so much time telling the people of God to love one another, but that didn't mean the kingdom Jews were supposed to love the church gentiles.

That Paul and Peter wrote to the same people, which must have included both Jews and non-proselyte gentiles, but somehow the overarching message was different. (i guess this is the same complaint as the different gospels)

 

[Stripe]

If someone tells you what the narrative is before presenting the writings, it will always seem so.

What?

Regardless of the content, you could be convinced that it was compatible with scripture?

1. That Paul and other NT writers were not only targeting different people groups, but also were propagating different gospels, which Paul anathematized.

2. That the Jews could achieve salvation by persevering, but others didn't have to.

3. That there was competition between the 12 apostles vs Paul--to get converts into the different church types.

4. That Peter was trying to follow the law sporadically because it helped save him, instead of only because it made him look good to the judaizers.

5. That John would spend so much time telling the people of God to love one another, but that didn't mean the kingdom Jews were supposed to love the church gentiles.

6. That Paul and Peter wrote to the same people, which must have included both Jews and non-proselyte gentiles, but somehow the overarching message was different. (i guess this is the same complaint as the different gospels)

I don't know if I would agree with any of those descriptions.

 

[way 2 go]

Eph 2:9's works are "of the Law", but Eph 2:10's works are like James' works...plain old giving glory to God by obedience to Him by loving our neighbors as we love ourselves.
V. 9's circumcision and dietary rules are different than v. 10's feeding and clothing the destitute.

how do you get that from those 3 verses , answer you don't
you have an illegitimate transfer of meaning of the word "works"
every time you see works you interpret not by context but by... feelings ?

Proof of conversion is not the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.

Proof of conversion ?
who am I proving it to ?

Can you tell them apart?

yes , can you

Or are even "hearing the word of the gospel", "believing in your heart that Jesus rose from the dead", and "saying Rom 10:9's confession with thy mouth the Lord Jesus" also works to be shunned?

is that you trying to back track on works salvation , a little goalpost moving
you said :
James is not talking about the Law, but about manifestations of the faith by which men are eventually saved.

Like Abraham, without the Law, he obeyed the requirements placed upon him.
So too must we.

so what , his righteousness was accredited to him by faith alone.
he didn't get MORE righteous by works.

[4] Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I celebrate the passing away of the Law's hundreds of things that do not save men.
Like the old "Sabbath days walking distance".
And the old "no fire lighting on the Sabbath".
And no eating of bacon or ham.
Do those really equate to feeding the hungry and clothing the naked to you?

those Laws are how the Jews stayed saved before the cross and a short time after the cross , until Paul
Peter kept the dietary laws after the cross.
(Acts 10:14) But Peter said, Not so, Lord, for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean

Paul's dispensation changed that.

If you are a Christian, serving one another should be bringing you great joy instead of the fear of "works".

I don't fear works, is that confession through projection by you

I am made righteous by faith
I can't be made MORE righteous by works

(Romans 4:3-5) [3] For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.