One on One: A Reasonable Dialogue - Sozo and godrulz

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godrulz

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Adultery is a sin, William. You said that sin makes you unholy. You believe, and teach, that you are unholy (or holy) based on what you do or do not do. That is self-righteousness. You decide (based solely on your behavior), whether or not you are acceptable to God. It is not Jesus that makes you acceptable, but you. It is not the shed blood of Jesus that makes you holy, but you make you holy.

This has been your belief since you have come to TOL. These are the beliefs of someone who denies Christ, no matter what you state to the contrary, you maintain that righteousness is predicated upon your abilitiy to obey God. You have another gospel.

Jesus died for all sin, for all time, for all men.

By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone is the only way that man is saved. Through faith in Christ we receive His life. In His life we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. In His life we are made holy, righteous, blameless, sanctifed, and perfected.


You teach contrary to the truth of the gospel. You still affirm that a Christian is judged by the Law for righteousness (as you clearly stated in your quote).

I seriously question the faith of anyone who comes to your defense.

I am not sure you are reading closely. If you define and apply holy within a very narrow parameter, I will never satisfy YOUR mold. If you look at the hundreds of references that involve holiness and holy, the picture is more composite than you are admitting. I can affirm your one truth, but you cannot dismiss my other truths, if you want to have the complete understanding of holiness. I gave verses that explicitly linked holiness with what we do, obedience, etc., not just something God unilaterally does. You can dismiss or twist them, but why not take them at face value and alter your preconceptions?

Did I say sin makes us totally unholy? No. I said that any given choice is vice or virtue, sinful or righteous. Adultery is sinful. Worshipping God is not a sinful act, so what else do you call it? Like your understanding of sin, your definition of holiness and salvation is based on partial evidence. This is one reason you continue to reject a straw man of my view. I am holy based on receiving Christ as Lord and Savior. The contexts that affirm this equate this holiness/sanctification with justification, an initial setting apart as holy unto God apart from works (grace/faith alone). This is the crux of determining if I have a false gospel or not. I do not combine faith + works (Judaizer) in order to be right with God. As I said before, it is based on the person and work of Christ, His shed blood alone. You may think my ideas subsequent to salvation are fishy, but that is still not proof that I am a Christ-hater who relishes in a false gospel of religion, not relationship.

What I am trying to avoid is the heresy that we are perfect and holy in Christ no matter how godless, lawless, unholy we are in our choices. Those believers who fornicate one hour and then spout how holy they are as they worship God are not living up to the exhortation to be holy even as He is holy (remember Peter uses the dirty word obedience in the same verse as this quote). If you are holy in Christ, and we are, then it better be reflected in a specific choice. You can play semantical games, but God judges reality. He does not just see Jesus and His blood and your perfect holiness in Christ while you are fornicating. He is not blind nor is he mocked. You figure out the theory. I cannot just embrace a position that is based on a narrow, limited application of what holiness is and is not. It is more practical than you realize (as much as you do not like Wesley and Finney, they stood in the face of antinomianism and linked theory with practice, doctrine with practical Christian living, JUST LIKE PAUL did).

As I have shared about my personal life and my father's conversion, it would be impossible for me or him to have eternal life based on what we do or do not do. This goes against everything I have been saying for years here.

Loving obedience subsequent to salvation does not save you or keep you. We are saved by grace through faith, not works. Salvation is a free gift (Eph. 2:8-10). Paul, in the same breath, then talks about the fruit of works that is linked to the root of faith. Obedience is not a work. It is not self-righteousness. It is a loving response to God. Jesus was holy. Jesus obeyed the Father. This did not make Jesus holy. We are holy, set apart unto God. We love God. We know God. We obey God (even if we do not obey perfectly, we are still in Him). Godless unbelief is unique and would be a reason for saying someone is not in Christ. Trying to understand all of the relevant verses relating to sanctification is not a denial of justification.

After reading the book on 5 views of sanctification, it was apparent that the most extreme, divergent views on how much is of God and what is our response/responsibility, that all shared a common affirmation of the essentials of the faith. They are all brothers in Christ affirming justification by faith, yet the exact relationship between God's provision and our response to that provision is debatable in nuanced ways.
 

godrulz

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At some point, would it be helpful to have a 3rd party moderator/opinion to give feedback for objectivity? Our subjectivity may prejudice us to fairly understanding each other?
 

Sozo

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It is , in fact, you that twists the bible to preach your gospel of self-righteousness.

You take ONE verse that teaches us to be saints in our behavior, and pervert it into holiness by obdeience.

Here are all the verses that prove that true believers are holy through faith in Christ...

"And if the first piece of dough be holy, the lump is also; and if the root be holy, the branches are too."

"If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are."

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him."

"And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach"

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light"
 

godrulz

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It would be helpful to have the references for context. None of the verses contradict my view and I freely quote them also. Some deal with God's intentions for us. He calls us to be holy, even as He is holy. This is consistent with an initial setting apart and an ongoing working of His life and character into our lives and character. You seem to ignore themes of growth and maturation and assume everything is automatic from minute one. We grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ until we are glorified. All believers are set apart at justification and are holy in Him, but not all believers are equally mature or reflect the character of Christ in every choice or moment of their Christian walk. This is why Romans 6 talks about yielding to spirit, instead of flesh, because some were yielding to their former way of life. Holiness is more than theoretical. We are to walk in the light as He is in the light. We are to put aside our former life in the power of the Spirit (how can you miss all these exhortations in the epistles?).

My concern for practical Christian living and godly character (Peter talks about making every effort to add to these character qualities of faith, patience, etc.) is related to what it is to be holy , even as He is holy. I refuse to call sinful behavior holy because the Bible calls it unrighteousness. A comment about Christian growth should not be taken as self-righteousness, works salvation, false gospel, a denial of justification by faith.

I think my assessment is on the right track, and I am being reasonable in dialogue. Thx for your self-control, but we are getting no where. I am still a 'pervert' in your mind.

I despair of you seeing the light on 'sozo vs rulz' in my lifetime. If the Holy Spirit cannot convince you from the Word and my sharing my heart and beliefs (not all definitive or finalized), then I will wait for the blue moon with my breath held.

Roger, Wilco, over and out.:sigh:
 

godrulz

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You can close this thread now. Nothing has changed.

"It is always too soon to quit" - Edmund Burke

One needs a reason to change. You have not given any persuasive arguments.

At least I hope you understand my views better.

Truth does not run from error. :wave2:
 

Sozo

New member
At least I hope you understand my views better.
I do!

I am now more convinced than ever that you are going to hell.

The only possible way that you will not, is if God truly allows those who do not know their right hand from their left. With that, you have a chance.
 

godrulz

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I do!

I am now more convinced than ever that you are going to hell.

The only possible way that you will not, is if God truly allows those who do not know their right hand from their left. With that, you have a chance.

My salvation depends on faith in the person and work of Christ. It is not dependent on me, my acceptance of your views, or perfection of knowledge of all theological nuances.

I wonder if I have to meet you first in heaven before other people I would rather reconnect with?

Regardless, I appreciate your self-control in this thread and will pick it up again if and when you want a 'reasonable dialogue' about the things of God.

Give my greetings to your cool family.

William

Advice: watch out for Hal the 2001 computer. He is after you, Dave.
 
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