One on One: Lighthouse and andyc MAD v Pentecostal

[Lighthouse]

Are you ready Andy?

Chickenman had some questions for you:

andyc,

Imagine someone who has never heard of God and who never had any preconceptions about what's in the Bible. He picks up the Bible for the first time ever and starts reading at Genesis 1:1 and reads every word through the end of Malachi. How would this person answer questions like the following:

• To whom did God promise an everlasting kingdom?
• Would this be a spiritual kingdom, or a physical kingdom on earth?
• To whom did God promise a new covenant?
• When would they enter into that new covenant with God?
• What were some of the characteristics of that new covenant?
• What does the Spirit have to do with the kingdom and the new covenant?

Put yourself in the shoes of that person. How would you answer the questions. Remember, you've read every word, in order, from Genesis through the end of Malachi.

Thanks,
Randy

Of course, I'm not sure his request would be an easy one to fulfill.

I mean, can any of us really imagine being someone who had never heard of God at all. Can any of us remember back that far. Can we even recall a time before we had been told anything about God?

However I do thing the bullet point questions are good questions.

I mean, I wonder how you would answer them as yourself. From your own perspective, as a Pentecostal.

But even more than that, I would like to know what you think the differences between MAD and Pentecostal/Charismatic beliefs are.

But the one question I want an answer to first is when was the last time you felt like there was a fire shut up in your bones, how long did it last, or did it never go away?

 

[andyc]

Your opening post is completely irrelevant to this debate. I already answered Randy's post in that particular thread, and all you could say in response was "FAIL".
The only thing you said above that was relevant to this debate was....

But even more than that, I would like to know what you think the differences between MAD and Pentecostal/Charismatic beliefs are.

You claimed to be an ex pentecostal, so you should already know what Pentecostals teach. We aren't here to debate MAD, you're supposed to present your case as to why the teachings of the Pentecostal church (that you were once a part of) are unscriptural.
If you don't know where to begin, why don't you start by presenting a case as to how you think the gifts of the Spirit (as listed in 1Cor 12:7-11) cannot be for today. Or present some other case as to how Pentecostal teachings are unscriptural.

 

[Lighthouse]

Your opening post is completely irrelevant to this debate. I already answered Randy's post in that particular thread, and all you could say in response was "FAIL".

I actually made my first post in this thread before that response in the original.

As for this thread I merely wanted you to consider the answers, from your own perspective.

But I was right in my supposition. You did not answer from the perspective Randy asked you to.

The only thing you said above that was relevant to this debate was....

You claimed to be an ex pentecostal, so you should already know what Pentecostals teach. We aren't here to debate MAD, you're supposed to present your case as to why the teachings of the Pentecostal church (that you were once a part of) are unscriptural.

Not all Pentecostal churches teach the same thing in the details. Not even among the same churches in denominations. So there needs to be some clarification.

If you don't know where to begin, why don't you start by presenting a case as to how you think the gifts of the Spirit (as listed in 1Cor 12:7-11) cannot be for today. Or present some other case as to how Pentecostal teachings are unscriptural.

There's one thing. You think MAD teaches that all of the gifts listed are completely gone. They're not. Of course, there is an issue on the "faith" gift. I mean, clearly it cannot mean the faith by which we are saved, or belief in God, etc.

But in regard to the list:

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
-1 Corinthians 13:8

Just one chapter later we are told they will cease. So the question is, when...

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says:


“ When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
-Ephesians 4:7-16


What we see here is the list being shorter. Why is this? What happened to all the other gifts? The "Charismata," if you will.

Going back to the issue of different teachings in the Pentecostal churches, the one I was a part of taught that everyone who had the Holy Spirit would speak in tongues. Not that you were unsaved if you did not, though. Meaning that salvation and having the Spirit were two different things.

We see this to be false by the verses in 1 Corinthians 12

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11

And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
-1 Corinthians 12:28-29

And then there are the prosperity teachers:

Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
-1 Timothy 6:6-10

Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
-1 Timothy 6:17-19

 

[andyc]

As for this thread I merely wanted you to consider the answers, from your own perspective.

But I was right in my supposition. You did not answer from the perspective Randy asked you to.

Feel free to jump right into that discussion anytime.

Not all Pentecostal churches teach the same thing in the details. Not even among the same churches in denominations. So there needs to be some clarification.

Granted.

There's one thing. You think MAD teaches that all of the gifts listed are completely gone. They're not. Of course, there is an issue on the "faith" gift. I mean, clearly it cannot mean the faith by which we are saved, or belief in God, etc.

The gift of faith is an ability to believe God beyond the capacity of human faith. To know beyond all doubt that God is going to do a particular work, even though all the evidence is to the contrary.

But in regard to the list:

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
-1 Corinthians 13:8

Just one chapter later we are told they will cease. So the question is, when...

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says:


“ When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
-Ephesians 4:7-16


What we see here is the list being shorter. Why is this? What happened to all the other gifts? The "Charismata," if you will.

I actually mentioned this passage recently when discussing it with STP. The answer to your question is actually in the text (in bold). Things like healing, tongues, and miracles do not edify the whole church. Physical healing only edifies the one who is healed, tongues only edifies the one speaking in tongues, and a miracle only edifies the one receiving a miracle.
It's probable that the prophecy which Paul mentions here in Ephesians is for edification of the church (1Cor 14:31).

Gifts like pastoring and teaching, are far more essential to the church as a whole than all of the more miraculous gifts, because they help the church to mature as a body. Pentecostals who are more interested in the miraculous gifts, are carnal, to be frank.

Going back to the issue of different teachings in the Pentecostal churches, the one I was a part of taught that everyone who had the Holy Spirit would speak in tongues. Not that you were unsaved if you did not, though. Meaning that salvation and having the Spirit were two different things.

We see this to be false by the verses in 1 Corinthians 12

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11

And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
-1 Corinthians 12:28-29

As you would have been told by other Pentecostals here, the ministry gift of tongues is different from the personal gift of tongues for prayer and worship.
The ministry gift of tongues is where a person will either speak in a tongue that is unknown to the speaker, but that is native to someone else in the church, or they may speak in a tongue that is unknown to everyone in the church, and there will need to be an interpretation of the tongue. This is done by someone who has the gift of interpretation of tongues.

The gift of tongues that is for everyone, is for private prayer and worship only.

1 Corinthians 14:23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

If the personal gift of tongues is not for everyone, then it would be impossible for the whole church to speak in tongues. The fact that the personal gift of tongues is not a human tongue, it would sound crazy to those who are not not properly informed concerning this gift, as many are.

And then there are the prosperity teachers:

Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
-1 Timothy 6:6-10

Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
-1 Timothy 6:17-19

I agree that prosperity is misunderstood in a lot of word faith charismatic churches today. God desires to prosper us, but prosperity in the old and new testament is really about the favor of God. As children of God, we should be blessed in all that our hands find to do.
Although we should be content in every situation, as opposed to grumbling about our circumstances. We should not allow our contentment to reject opportunities for God to prosper us. More prosperity for us means more for us to bless others with. Someone who is very wealthy but doesn't sense the favor of God on their life, would not understand prosperity like someone who has no money, but knows that God favors them as a child of God.

 

[Lighthouse]

Feel free to jump right into that discussion anytime.

Done.

The gift of faith is an ability to believe God beyond the capacity of human faith. To know beyond all doubt that God is going to do a particular work, even though all the evidence is to the contrary.

This can't be. The verse specifically says this gift is not given to all who are His. Why wouldn't God give that kind of faith, as you described, to all His children?

I actually mentioned this passage recently when discussing it with STP. The answer to your question is actually in the text (in bold). Things like healing, tongues, and miracles do not edify the whole church. Physical healing only edifies the one who is healed, tongues only edifies the one speaking in tongues, and a miracle only edifies the one receiving a miracle.
It's probable that the prophecy which Paul mentions here in Ephesians is for edification of the church (1Cor 14:31).

Actually it appears to me that it has a lot to do with necessity. These things are not as necessary as they were at one time. And it's also a wicked and adulterous generation who seeks a sign.

[Jesus]“A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.”[/Jesus] And He left them and departed.
-Matthew 16:4

Gifts like pastoring and teaching, are far more essential to the church as a whole than all of the more miraculous gifts, because they help the church to mature as a body. Pentecostals who are more interested in the miraculous gifts, are carnal, to be frank.

I'm glad you recognize this. I've never known a Pentecostal to understand this. As I said, it's about necessity.

And we also see that many of the miracles led to unbelievers becoming angrier with God rather than following after Him.

So, we see the issue here is the relevance to the church. And these gifts are not that relevant, as you already admitted. And I don;t think they are relevant at all at this point.

Now, I can understand them popping up on occasion when they might actually be necessary, but that's not often. And those who seek them, as we both agree, are carnal.

As you would have been told by other Pentecostals here, the ministry gift of tongues is different from the personal gift of tongues for prayer and worship.

Actually, there's disagreement on that. And I've yet to see any validity to either. And I spent ten years in an A/G church. I saw a lot of emotional hype that died down very quickly. And I have learned that the only thing that actually makes someone feel on fire for God is the truth.

As I was participating in that church I felt embarrassed whenever I was around someone who wanted to share teh gospel with everyone around them. I even recall my reaction to one of my friends around the time he first became a Christian.

Now I want to share with everyone around me. It feels weird holding it inside. Even when I know they don't want to listen. I still want to just get in their face and tell them that God wants more for them than they want for themselves. That He wants them to be free.

The ministry gift of tongues is where a person will either speak in a tongue that is unknown to the speaker, but that is native to someone else in the church, or they may speak in a tongue that is unknown to everyone in the church, and there will need to be an interpretation of the tongue. This is done by someone who has the gift of interpretation of tongues.

But what's the necessity of either of these?

And what about the tongues where those who speak a different language hear it in their own tongue?

The gift of tongues that is for everyone, is for private prayer and worship only.

1 Corinthians 14:23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

If the personal gift of tongues is not for everyone, then it would be impossible for the whole church to speak in tongues. The fact that the personal gift of tongues is not a human tongue, it would sound crazy to those who are not not properly informed concerning this gift, as many are.

"If" doesn't mean it is for all. Context, andy.

Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.
-1 Corinthians 14:22-25

Tongues are for a sign to unbelievers. So if unbelievers think you are crazy when you speak tongues then you are not speaking tongues Biblically. And I never met an unbeliever who didn't think that when they heard it.

And if they are for a sign to unbelievers, then they are not for personal prayer and alone time.

I agree that prosperity is misunderstood in a lot of word faith charismatic churches today. God desires to prosper us, but prosperity in the old and new testament is really about the favor of God. As children of God, we should be blessed in all that our hands find to do.
Although we should be content in every situation, as opposed to grumbling about our circumstances. We should not allow our contentment to reject opportunities for God to prosper us. More prosperity for us means more for us to bless others with. Someone who is very wealthy but doesn't sense the favor of God on their life, would not understand prosperity like someone who has no money, but knows that God favors them as a child of God.

Agreed.

Now, how about you answer the question I asked in my first post, when was the last time you felt like there was a fire shut up in your bones?

 

[andyc]

Done.


This can't be. The verse specifically says this gift is not given to all who are His. Why wouldn't God give that kind of faith, as you described, to all His children?

Because the gifts are distributed as the Spirit wills. That doesn't mean that someone who doesn't have a specific gift, may occasionally operate in the gift. I believe that Paul operated in all of the gifts at one time or another.

Actually it appears to me that it has a lot to do with necessity. These things are not as necessary as they were at one time.

I disagree, I think it's more essential now than it ever was. We are living in an age where science has turned against religion, and demands evidence for the existence of God. And other religions, as well as the many pseudo Christian cults are claiming they have the truth. I could stop here and spend a lot of time explaining how God desires to manifest himself in the earth through powerful works and signs. I'll just mention Elijah challenging the priests of baal on mount Carmel. He propsed that both he and the baal prophets make an alter and sacrifice a calf on it, and the God who answers by fire is God. This proposition pleased all the people. Why? Because it ends the debate.

Mark 16:19-20 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

And it's also a wicked and adulterous generation who seeks a sign.

A lot of people misunderstand what Jesus meant by this statement. The pharisees wanted Jesus to do something extra ordinary in order for his identity as the Son of God to be undeniably validated from heaven. They were unwilling to accept who Jesus was, based on what he said and did. Jesus was touring Israel seeking those who would believe him based on the words he spoke, and the healings and miracles which were a confirmation of the gospel he preached.

John 10:37-38
37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

Here Jesus was explaining that his gospel of the kingdom would be meaningless if there were no accompanying signs, just as it still is today. Everybody has their religious books today, but a Christian stands on the promises within the word of God.

Rom 15:18-19
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient——19 in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Paul didn't consider the gospel to be fully preached unless there were signs and wonders.

[Jesus]“A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.”[/Jesus] And He left them and departed.
-Matthew 16:4

If the only sign given to the Jews, was Jesus' death and resurrection, then it's obvious that his miracles and healings were not meant to be signs that validated who he was, but to confirm the gospel he preached. If his gospel was true, and his miracles corresponded to his gospel, surely he had to be who he claimed to be. However, the pharisees wanted something extra ordinary, to prove beyond all doubt that he was the Son of God. If he had done that, their acceptance of would not have been based on faith.

I'm glad you recognize this. I've never known a Pentecostal to understand this. As I said, it's about necessity.

The gifts are a necessity.
1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

In the Greek it means to be zealous for the gifts (eanestly desire them / covet them).

And we also see that many of the miracles led to unbelievers becoming angrier with God rather than following after Him.

You mean the Jews who were Jealous?

So, we see the issue here is the relevance to the church. And these gifts are not that relevant, as you already admitted.
And I don;t think they are relevant at all at this point.

Some gifts are totally irrelevant to growing in knowledge and maturity, but they are hugely relevant to being blessed as we grow.

Now, I can understand them popping up on occasion when they might actually be necessary, but that's not often. And those who seek them, as we both agree, are carnal.

It's not carnal to seek spiritual gifts, as I've shown above. It's carnal to only seek the gifts and disregard the more important aspect of learning from sound teaching.

Actually, there's disagreement on that. And I've yet to see any validity to either. And I spent ten years in an A/G church. I saw a lot of emotional hype that died down very quickly. And I have learned that the only thing that actually makes someone feel on fire for God is the truth.

As I was participating in that church I felt embarrassed whenever I was around someone who wanted to share teh gospel with everyone around them. I even recall my reaction to one of my friends around the time he first became a Christian.

Now I want to share with everyone around me. It feels weird holding it inside. Even when I know they don't want to listen. I still want to just get in their face and tell them that God wants more for them than they want for themselves. That He wants them to be free.

Your experiences do not negate the word.

But what's the necessity of either of these?

God is speaking personally and specifically to an individual or to the whole church. There was a time when I was contemplating one time whether to spend three months in America. I had brought the Airline tickets but I wasn't sure if I was doing the right thing. No one in the church knew anything about it. While I was in church thinking about it, there was a tongue, and the pastor interpreted it, "You haven't arranged this, I have. Go, I will be with you". I took that as a word from God, and I was hugely blessed by my time there.
You'll hear countless testimonies of people who have had a word from God from a tongue and interpretation.

And what about the tongues where those who speak a different language hear it in their own tongue?

I have heard loads of testimonies where this has happened, but I haven't witnessed it personally, because in all the churches I've been to, people speak English. If I went to a foreign Pentecostal church, I might hear people speaking in English when they speak in tongues.

"If" doesn't mean it is for all. Context, andy.

1 Corinthians 14:18-19 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all, yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding.

Yet in church?
Paul was saying that he speaks in tongues all the time outside of church.
Just as we have two gifts of prophecy where one is not for all, and one is, we have two gifts of tongues where one is not for all, and one is. I speak in tongues all the time, but I've never spoken in tongues in Church. I do interpreted tongues though. The Holy Spirit quickens your heart with a message that is inspired by God, sometimes with an accompanying vision.

Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.
-1 Corinthians 14:22-25

Tongues are for a sign to unbelievers. So if unbelievers think you are crazy when you speak tongues then you are not speaking tongues Biblically. And I never met an unbeliever who didn't think that when they heard it.

And if they are for a sign to unbelievers, then they are not for personal prayer and alone time.

If this is the case, what did Paul mean when he said....

1Cor 14:2-4
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

How do you interpret this?

Now, how about you answer the question I asked in my first post, when was the last time you felt like there was a fire shut up in your bones?

I'm not sure how this specifically has anything to do with Pentecostals.

 

[Lighthouse]

Because the gifts are distributed as the Spirit wills. That doesn't mean that someone who doesn't have a specific gift, may occasionally operate in the gift. I believe that Paul operated in all of the gifts at one time or another.

You believe or you can prove it?

I disagree, I think it's more essential now than it ever was. We are living in an age where science has turned against religion, and demands evidence for the existence of God. And other religions, as well as the many pseudo Christian cults are claiming they have the truth. I could stop here and spend a lot of time explaining how God desires to manifest himself in the earth through powerful works and signs. I'll just mention Elijah challenging the priests of baal on mount Carmel. He propsed that both he and the baal prophets make an alter and sacrifice a calf on it, and the God who answers by fire is God. This proposition pleased all the people. Why? Because it ends the debate.

And, as I have shown, the wicked are the ones who seek a sign. And when they receive them they rail against God even more.

Even the prophets of Baal were angered when they failed, and God showed them up.

Mark 16:19-20 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

What of it? I'm not arguing they were not necessary then.

A lot of people misunderstand what Jesus meant by this statement. The pharisees wanted Jesus to do something extra ordinary in order for his identity as the Son of God to be undeniably validated from heaven. They were unwilling to accept who Jesus was, based on what he said and did. Jesus was touring Israel seeking those who would believe him based on the words he spoke, and the healings and miracles which were a confirmation of the gospel he preached.

You make my point for me and miss it completely.

John 10:37-38
37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

Here Jesus was explaining that his gospel of the kingdom would be meaningless if there were no accompanying signs, just as it still is today. Everybody has their religious books today, but a Christian stands on the promises within the word of God.

The gospel of the kingdom is not in play. But when it is the signs will return.

Rom 15:18-19
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient——19 in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Paul didn't consider the gospel to be fully preached unless there were signs and wonders.

You're reading into Paul's words here.

If the only sign given to the Jews, was Jesus' death and resurrection, then it's obvious that his miracles and healings were not meant to be signs that validated who he was, but to confirm the gospel he preached. If his gospel was true, and his miracles corresponded to his gospel, surely he had to be who he claimed to be. However, the pharisees wanted something extra ordinary, to prove beyond all doubt that he was the Son of God. If he had done that, their acceptance of would not have been based on faith.

On the nose!

The gifts are a necessity.
1 Corinthians 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

In the Greek it means to be zealous for the gifts (eanestly desire them / covet them).

And? The list got shorter after this. You have yet to explain why.

You mean the Jews who were Jealous?

No. The Egyptians are the example I always think of first.

Some gifts are totally irrelevant to growing in knowledge and maturity, but they are hugely relevant to being blessed as we grow.

Can you prove that?

It's not carnal to seek spiritual gifts, as I've shown above. It's carnal to only seek the gifts and disregard the more important aspect of learning from sound teaching.

Seeking and desiring are not the same. You may desire all of them but you will only receive the ones He gives. And if He gives none...

Your experiences do not negate the word.

The word does show that things change, though. My experiences have taught me to pay closer attention to the word.
And your experiences don't negate it either.

God is speaking personally and specifically to an individual or to the whole church. There was a time when I was contemplating one time whether to spend three months in America. I had brought the Airline tickets but I wasn't sure if I was doing the right thing. No one in the church knew anything about it. While I was in church thinking about it, there was a tongue, and the pastor interpreted it, "You haven't arranged this, I have. Go, I will be with you". I took that as a word from God, and I was hugely blessed by my time there.
You'll hear countless testimonies of people who have had a word from God from a tongue and interpretation.

But your name was never spoken.:think: Nor the destination.:think:

I have heard loads of testimonies where this has happened, but I haven't witnessed it personally, because in all the churches I've been to, people speak English. If I went to a foreign Pentecostal church, I might hear people speaking in English when they speak in tongues.

Many of us have heard stories. None of that proves anything.

1 Corinthians 14:18-19 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all, yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding.

Yet in church?
Paul was saying that he speaks in tongues all the time outside of church.
Just as we have two gifts of prophecy where one is not for all, and one is, we have two gifts of tongues where one is not for all, and one is. I speak in tongues all the time, but I've never spoken in tongues in Church. I do interpreted tongues though. The Holy Spirit quickens your heart with a message that is inspired by God, sometimes with an accompanying vision.

And you can prove these are actual languages?

If this is the case, what did Paul mean when he said....

1Cor 14:2-4
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

How do you interpret this?

This does not negate them being a sign for unbelievers. If they understood them they wouldn't know what was going on.

I'm not sure how this specifically has anything to do with Pentecostals.

Answer the question.

 

[andyc]

You believe or you can prove it?

I believe it, but would possibly struggle to prove from scripture that he operated in all the gifts. 'Interpretation of tongues' is one I'd struggle to prove, but it would be odd if he didn't operate in this gift, seeing as he elevated it above the gift of speaking in tongues.

And, as I have shown, the wicked are the ones who seek a sign. And when they receive them they rail against God even more.

Even the prophets of Baal were angered when they failed, and God showed them up.

That's because the power of God exposed the priests of baal for who they were.
It is wrong for a person to have to continually see signs in order to believe, but it's not wrong to believe on the basis of a sign. Healing was a part of the gospel Jesus preached, and it was a part of the gospel Paul preached.

What of it? I'm not arguing they were not necessary then.

Why are they not necessary now?

You make my point for me and miss it completely.

Responses like this are useless in a one on one.
I'll take it that you have no response to this.

The gospel of the kingdom is not in play. But when it is the signs will return.

Another useless response that deviates from the point you made about a wicked and adulterous generation seeking after signs.

You're reading into Paul's words here.

Not at all. Paul explained that his preaching was not with human wisdom, but by demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit. Where ever Paul spoke, strong conviction fell on people when they heard him, and when they saw the works he did among them.
His words and deeds were so powerful that all who heard and believed, were not persuaded by the wisdom of man, but by the power of God.

On the nose!

Your reasoning in this debate is not coherent at all. What does this response mean? You're now agreeing that Jesus' healings and miracles had nothing to do with a wicked adulterous generation seeking a sign?

And? The list got shorter after this. You have yet to explain why.

I did explain why.

"The answer to your question is actually in the text (in bold). Things like healing, tongues, and miracles do not edify the whole church. Physical healing only edifies the one who is healed, tongues only edifies the one speaking in tongues, and a miracle only edifies the one receiving a miracle."

Paul is talking about the ministry gifts which edify the church as a body, not the gifts which edify individuals temporarily.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine

No. The Egyptians are the example I always think of first.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but apart from Pharoah, God was held in high honor and glorified among the nations for the signs and wonders he did in Egypt. Moses was also honored by the Egyptians
(Exo 11:3).

Can you prove that?

Of course.
If your body is healed of a disease, that would bless you, wouldn't it?
Praying in tongues is very edifying, it builds us up in our faith.

1Cor 14:4, 1Cor 14:14-15, Jude 1:20

Seeking and desiring are not the same. You may desire all of them but you will only receive the ones He gives. And if He gives none...

He will always give at least one gift to those who are filled with the Holy Spirit.

1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all

The word does show that things change, though. My experiences have taught me to pay closer attention to the word. And your experiences don't negate it either.

We should be very attentive to the word of God, and if we are, we'll see that the gifts of the Spirit are for today.

But your name was never spoken.:think: Nor the destination.:think:

It was personal word to me. As you mature in faith, you learn to allow the peace of God to dictate what is of God, the flesh, and the devil (Phil 4:6-7).

Many of us have heard stories. None of that proves anything.

Granted, but it may cause someone who is curious to check it out.

And you can prove these are actual languages?

I only understand English. Tongues do not have to be in known language, which is why there must be an interpreter. There are not only human languages, there are also heavenly languages.

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

This does not negate them being a sign for unbelievers. If they understood them they wouldn't know what was going on.

Can't you see the contradiction?

A sign for unbelievers, and yet unbelievers will think we're mad if we speak in tongues. It is blatantly obvious that there is a gift of tongues that has nothing to do with speaking in a known language.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Why would Paul pray in a tongue?
He already explained how that, someone who speaks in tongues does not speak to men but to God. I'm amazed that you cannot see how that Paul is talking about a personal gift of tongues as an aid to intimate prayer and worship.

15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

Sing in tongues?

16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. 18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all of you.

And to top it all off, Paul said....

1 Corinthians 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues [RSV]

1 Corinthians 14:5 Now I would have you all speak with tongues [ASV]

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues [NIV]

Paul had played down the gift of tongues as having no benefit to the church as a whole, but the gift was still important enough for Paul to affirm that he wanted them all to speak in tongues. However, prophesying was much more profitable for the church to be edified.

Answer the question.

God gave Jeremiah his word, and it burned within him. Whenever the Lord gives us a word from heaven, it will burn in us.
This happens to me occasionally, especially when God quickens me with a word of wisdom, or an interpretation of a tongue etc. It feels very uncomfortable to hold it in. It hasn't happened to me in the last few weeks though.

 

[Lighthouse]

I believe it, but would possibly struggle to prove from scripture that he operated in all the gifts. 'Interpretation of tongues' is one I'd struggle to prove, but it would be odd if he didn't operate in this gift, seeing as he elevated it above the gift of speaking in tongues.

That means nothing. We all think what other people have is better than what we have at times. We have to be content with what we do have, though.

That's because the power of God exposed the priests of baal for who they were.
It is wrong for a person to have to continually see signs in order to believe, but it's not wrong to believe on the basis of a sign. Healing was a part of the gospel Jesus preached, and it was a part of the gospel Paul preached.

Where was Timothy's supernatural healing?

Why are they not necessary now?

The enemy is not as active now, for one.

Responses like this are useless in a one on one.
I'll take it that you have no response to this.

The majority of Pentecostals are unwilling to accept that God loves them, or that He was in their midst if they don't see these signs. I don't expect God to be OK with that, or play into it.

And now we have churches full of fakers who don't even know they're faking.

They're emotionally charged and convincing themselves they're having supernatural experiences. It's like a mass hallucination.

Another useless response that deviates from the point you made about a wicked and adulterous generation seeking after signs.

That's not my only point here, andy.

When the New Covenant comes back the enemy will be in force, and the signs will be necessary as a weapon against them.

Not at all. Paul explained that his preaching was not with human wisdom, but by demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit. Where ever Paul spoke, strong conviction fell on people when they heard him, and when they saw the works he did among them.
His words and deeds were so powerful that all who heard and believed, were not persuaded by the wisdom of man, but by the power of God.

And?

Your reasoning in this debate is not coherent at all. What does this response mean? You're now agreeing that Jesus' healings and miracles had nothing to do with a wicked adulterous generation seeking a sign?

"However, the pharisees wanted something extra ordinary, to prove beyond all doubt that he was the Son of God. If he had done that, their acceptance of would not have been based on faith. "

Your own words.

I did explain why.

"The answer to your question is actually in the text (in bold). Things like healing, tongues, and miracles do not edify the whole church. Physical healing only edifies the one who is healed, tongues only edifies the one speaking in tongues, and a miracle only edifies the one receiving a miracle."

Paul is talking about the ministry gifts which edify the church as a body, not the gifts which edify individuals temporarily.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine

And do we need this edification at this point in time?

God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but apart from Pharoah, God was held in high honor and glorified among the nations for the signs and wonders he did in Egypt. Moses was also honored by the Egyptians
(Exo 11:3).

And it still wasn't the last time unbelievers rejected God even more.:nono:

Of course.
If your body is healed of a disease, that would bless you, wouldn't it?
Praying in tongues is very edifying, it builds us up in our faith.

In what way?

1Cor 14:4, 1Cor 14:14-15, Jude 1:20

Is it now necessary?

He will always give at least one gift to those who are filled with the Holy Spirit.

1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all

Are there any who are saved but not filled with the Holy Spirit?

We should be very attentive to the word of God, and if we are, we'll see that the gifts of the Spirit are for today.

No, we won't. They are out of season.

It was personal word to me. As you mature in faith, you learn to allow the peace of God to dictate what is of God, the flesh, and the devil (Phil 4:6-7).

Back it up then.

Granted, but it may cause someone who is curious to check it out.

So why is it most of them can't be checked?

I only understand English. Tongues do not have to be in known language, which is why there must be an interpreter. There are not only human languages, there are also heavenly languages.

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

This is a fallacy. The tongues of men and angels are the same tongues. And just because there should be an interpreter with real tongues does not mean that the language may be unknown. It only means that those around most likely do not speak it.

Can't you see the contradiction?

A sign for unbelievers, and yet unbelievers will think we're mad if we speak in tongues. It is blatantly obvious that there is a gift of tongues that has nothing to do with speaking in a known language.

The Bible does not contradict itself.

The text in reference to unbelievers thinking us mad is when it is done wrong.

none of this points to unknown languages.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Why would Paul pray in a tongue?
He already explained how that, someone who speaks in tongues does not speak to men but to God. I'm amazed that you cannot see how that Paul is talking about a personal gift of tongues as an aid to intimate prayer and worship.

If your understanding is unfruitful then there is no aid. In order to have edification you must understand.

15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

The understanding must be present. Are we to interpret ourselves when we pray alone in tongues?

Sing in tongues?

Irrelevant.

16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. 18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all of you.

And to top it all off, Paul said....

1 Corinthians 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues [RSV]

1 Corinthians 14:5 Now I would have you all speak with tongues [ASV]

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues [NIV]

Paul had played down the gift of tongues as having no benefit to the church as a whole, but the gift was still important enough for Paul to affirm that he wanted them all to speak in tongues. However, prophesying was much more profitable for the church to be edified.

And if prophecy has ceased...

God gave Jeremiah his word, and it burned within him. Whenever the Lord gives us a word from heaven, it will burn in us.
This happens to me occasionally, especially when God quickens me with a word of wisdom, or an interpretation of a tongue etc. It feels very uncomfortable to hold it in. It hasn't happened to me in the last few weeks though.

So the gospel does not do this to you without ceasing?

 

[andyc]

That means nothing. We all think what other people have is better than what we have at times. We have to be content with what we do have, though.

While earnestly desiring the gifts (1Cor 12:31, 14:1).

Where was Timothy's supernatural healing?

I assume you are talking about Paul instructing Timothy to drink a little wine because of his stomach's sake?

Good water is better than wine for someone with a sick stomach, and therefore the water where Timothy was, must have been of a poor quality. Not only that, but healing is a matter of faith, it is not something that is automatic.
Even the gifts of the Spirit can only be used in proportion to our faith (Rom 12:6). Paul had to remind Timothy to stir up the gift within him (2Tim 1:6), which means he would have to stir up his faith. Even some of the most well known Pentecostal healing evangelists have all had to stir up their faith to believe and receive healing for various health problems. These things can be like a trial.

The enemy is not as active now, for one.

Not as active now? You've got to be kidding.
What has this got to do with the gifts of the Spirit anyway?

The majority of Pentecostals are unwilling to accept that God loves them, or that He was in their midst if they don't see these signs. I don't expect God to be OK with that, or play into it.

And now we have churches full of fakers who don't even know they're faking.

They're emotionally charged and convincing themselves they're having supernatural experiences. It's like a mass hallucination.

That's because there are some bad pentecostal churches, where fleshly emotions and feelings are sold to the gullible flock.

That's not my only point here, andy.

When the New Covenant comes back the enemy will be in force, and the signs will be necessary as a weapon against them.

The devil is as much active now as ever, because he knows his time is short. In the west, he is seeking to put Christians to sleep by using all means necessary, particularly by using every kind of filth in the world to shipwreck our faith. In other parts of the world he is extremely aggressive in stirring up persecution.

And?

And so it shows how Paul relied on the power of God to convince the people. If he needed God's power, then so do we.

"However, the pharisees wanted something extra ordinary, to prove beyond all doubt that he was the Son of God. If he had done that, their acceptance of would not have been based on faith. "

Your own words.

The sign they were looking for was supposed to validate his identity.
His words and deeds (healing and miracles) were not enough for them, they wanted something absolutely spectacular.
Besides, if Jesus said that the only sign he would give them was the sign of Jonah, then the healings and miracles were not signs to make them believe who he was, but were a necessary part of the gospel of the kingdom, where they had to accept his testimony about himself based on what he said and did.

John 10:37-38
37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

This is so clear, you would be in denial to reject it.
Jesus is telling them not to believe his words if he did not do the works. Why would he then imply that wicked people demand these works?

And do we need this edification at this point in time?

Of course, even more so.

And it still wasn't the last time unbelievers rejected God even more.:nono:

Some people reject God because he does miracles, and therefore miracles are bad?
Why did Jesus do lots of miracles then (John 7:31)?

In what way?

When you pray in tongues, the Spirit prays the perfect will of God, and it is refreshing to your spirit. It fills you with peace and assurance.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself....

How do you think its possible for a person to speak what is gibberish to the natural ear, and yet be edified?
Obviously it is spiritual edification.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Is it now necessary?

Of course, why wouldn't it be?

Are there any who are saved but not filled with the Holy Spirit?

Of course.
Salvation is a regeneration of our spirit where we are conformed to the likeness of Christ. His spirit was divine, and the Holy Spirit indwells our spirit where we become spiritual replicas of the person of Christ. He is the prototokos (firstborn / prototype), and we are fashioned in his image.
However, Jesus also needed to be filled with the Holy Spirit in order to minister (Luke 4:14, 4:18).

No, we won't. They are out of season.

You have yet to prove otherwise.

Back it up then.

It was backed up by the fact that the time I had was great. I spent three months in the states, and God was indeed with me.

So why is it most of them can't be checked?

Even if you found someone who had spoken in a known tongue, would you believe them?
If you found people in that church who verified it as true, would you believe them?

No.

This is a fallacy. The tongues of men and angels are the same tongues.

You're missing the context of the verse. Paul is talking about the eloquence of human tongues and angelic tongues. Angelic tongues signifies a more exalted form of speech (heavenly language). A tongue is a language. If Angelic languages were the same as human languages, then what Paul said wouldn't make sense.

And just because there should be an interpreter with real tongues does not mean that the language may be unknown. It only means that those around most likely do not speak it.

You refuse to accept that, with the personal gift of tongues, we do not speak to other people. It is not a human language that comes from our mind and intellect.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

We are speaking to God with our spirit, not to men. No one is able to understand a person praying in the Spirit. You have to start being honest in your conscience with these scriptures.
When I couldn't get filled with the Spirit, and I was treated like I was a half baked Christian for not speaking in tongues, I became opposed to the AOG teaching. I brought books by people like Peter Masters who tried to explain it all away like you're doing, but I wasn't happy in my conscience. For about three years I fought this teaching, and argued with the pastor etc, but every time I read 1 Corinthians 12-14, I was bothered in my conscience.
Eventually I had to concede that I was wrong, and a few years later I spoke in tongues. I could have done it years before but I had wrong misconceptions about how to speak in tongues.

Paul said that he prayed and sang in the Spirit, and that he spoke in tongues more than all the people at the church in Corinth, but not in church. This means he must be talking about his time of private devotion.

The Bible does not contradict itself.

The text in reference to unbelievers thinking us mad is when it is done wrong.

none of this points to unknown languages.

See above.

If your understanding is unfruitful then there is no aid. In order to have edification you must understand.

There is no edification for the mind. Paul is talking about spiritual edification. Our spirit prays, therefore it is our spirit that is edified.

Your argument is with Paul, not me.

The understanding must be present. Are we to interpret ourselves when we pray alone in tongues?

You do not understand spiritual edification. Paul said that he prays with his spirit, and he prays with his understanding. This means that when we pray in the Spirit, we do not know what we are praying.
It is purely an act of faith that is humiliating to the flesh (have another look at Rom 8:26).

Irrelevant.

How can it be irrelevant?
Is someone going to interpret a song?
Or is it simply worship in the Spirit?

And if prophecy has ceased...

Prophecy hasn't ceased, as the scripture you quoted shows.

Eph 4:11-14
He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

This hasn't happened yet.

Also

1 Corinthians 1:7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ

Paul expected the gifts to be in operation until Christ was revealed.

So the gospel does not do this to you without ceasing?

The experience of it comes and goes. When God puts his word in you it will burn. Jeremiah was a prophet, he wasn't just expressing his own thoughts and opinions. They were inspired utterances.

PS
I love the song by Karen Wheaton, she really got a hold of it.

 

[Lighthouse]

While earnestly desiring the gifts (1Cor 12:31, 14:1).

Maybe so, but we will desire some more than others. Of course, if they are not currently available, at least not in the amount they were when they were needed, then it doesn't matter.

I assume you are talking about Paul instructing Timothy to drink a little wine because of his stomach's sake?

Yes.

Good water is better than wine for someone with a sick stomach, and therefore the water where Timothy was, must have been of a poor quality. Not only that, but healing is a matter of faith, it is not something that is automatic.

Your failure is in indicating that Timothy did not have the faith to be healed. In doing this you are accusing Paul of making the same claim.

The truth of the matter is that supernatural healing was not necessary.

Even the gifts of the Spirit can only be used in proportion to our faith (Rom 12:6). Paul had to remind Timothy to stir up the gift within him (2Tim 1:6), which means he would have to stir up his faith. Even some of the most well known Pentecostal healing evangelists have all had to stir up their faith to believe and receive healing for various health problems. These things can be like a trial.

So faith the size of a mustard seed is no good then?

Not as active now? You've got to be kidding.
What has this got to do with the gifts of the Spirit anyway?

:bang:

If they are not as currently active there is a reason. And that reason is necessity, or lack thereof.

That's because there are some bad pentecostal churches, where fleshly emotions and feelings are sold to the gullible flock.

They do it to themselves.

And the sexual immorality abundant in these churches is sad. And it stems from the emotional hype, and the reliance on those emotions. They follow their emotions believing them to be true passion, and that leads to them falling into bed when they should not. Because they have led themselves to believe that if it feels good it do it, even if their superegos say otherwise.

The devil is as much active now as ever, because he knows his time is short. In the west, he is seeking to put Christians to sleep by using all means necessary, particularly by using every kind of filth in the world to shipwreck our faith. In other parts of the world he is extremely aggressive in stirring up persecution.

As active as he will be right before he is finally cast away? Or as active as he was when God incarnate was walking the Earth?

And so it shows how Paul relied on the power of God to convince the people. If he needed God's power, then so do we.

What do we need God's power to do?

The sign they were looking for was supposed to validate his identity.
His words and deeds (healing and miracles) were not enough for them, they wanted something absolutely spectacular.
Besides, if Jesus said that the only sign he would give them was the sign of Jonah, then the healings and miracles were not signs to make them believe who he was, but were a necessary part of the gospel of the kingdom, where they had to accept his testimony about himself based on what he said and did.

And?

This is exactly my point.

John 10:37-38
37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38 "but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

This is so clear, you would be in denial to reject it.
Jesus is telling them not to believe his words if he did not do the works. Why would he then imply that wicked people demand these works?

There's a difference between accepting them and demanding them.

Of course, even more so.

Back that up.

Some people reject God because he does miracles, and therefore miracles are bad?

:bang:

They don't bring people to Christ. this does not make them bad. Only unnecessary.

Why did Jesus do lots of miracles then (John 7:31)?

Clean the drool off your keyboard.

When you pray in tongues, the Spirit prays the perfect will of God, and it is refreshing to your spirit. It fills you with peace and assurance.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself....

And do you know this from experience?

How do you think its possible for a person to speak what is gibberish to the natural ear, and yet be edified?
Obviously it is spiritual edification.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

If it remains to be understood then it does not edify. Edification can only come when it is understood. This is why he says his understanding is unfruitful.

And if it is actually just gibberish it certainly does not edify.

Of course, why wouldn't it be?

Why would it?

Of course.
Salvation is a regeneration of our spirit where we are conformed to the likeness of Christ. His spirit was divine, and the Holy Spirit indwells our spirit where we become spiritual replicas of the person of Christ. He is the prototokos (firstborn / prototype), and we are fashioned in his image.
However, Jesus also needed to be filled with the Holy Spirit in order to minister (Luke 4:14, 4:18).

those verses fail to support your argument. He already had the Spirit. So do we.

You have yet to prove otherwise.

And you have yet to prove me wrong. So, who asked first?

It was backed up by the fact that the time I had was great. I spent three months in the states, and God was indeed with me.

So? This does not prove that the "word" was for you. Only that God was not against you going. And that is no surprise. For God desires us to preach in all our situations, no matter where we may be.

Even if you found someone who had spoken in a known tongue, would you believe them?
If you found people in that church who verified it as true, would you believe them?

I'd have to hear it for myself. I believe God without seeing, but not men.:nono:

No.

Inflammatory much?

You're missing the context of the verse. Paul is talking about the eloquence of human tongues and angelic tongues. Angelic tongues signifies a more exalted form of speech (heavenly language). A tongue is a language. If Angelic languages were the same as human languages, then what Paul said wouldn't make sense.

Not very bright, are you?

If men and angels speak the same languages then it can be said they are the languages of men and angels. If Paul had written, "the tongues of mean and the tongues of angels," you might have an argument. But that isn't what he said. And it makes perfect sense.

You refuse to accept that, with the personal gift of tongues, we do not speak to other people. It is not a human language that comes from our mind and intellect.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

I'm not refusing to accept anything. I never said it was spoken to men. All I said is that it is supposed to be a sign to men.

We are speaking to God with our spirit, not to men. No one is able to understand a person praying in the Spirit. You have to start being honest in your conscience with these scriptures.

You apparently don't know the first thing about intellectual honesty.

When I couldn't get filled with the Spirit, and I was treated like I was a half baked Christian for not speaking in tongues, I became opposed to the AOG teaching. I brought books by people like Peter Masters who tried to explain it all away like you're doing, but I wasn't happy in my conscience. For about three years I fought this teaching, and argued with the pastor etc, but every time I read 1 Corinthians 12-14, I was bothered in my conscience.
Eventually I had to concede that I was wrong, and a few years later I spoke in tongues. I could have done it years before but I had wrong misconceptions about how to speak in tongues.

The verses in question are clear that the gift of tongues, when it was available, was not to everyone. The A/G is wrong.

Paul said that he prayed and sang in the Spirit, and that he spoke in tongues more than all the people at the church in Corinth, but not in church. This means he must be talking about his time of private devotion.

And if he did not understand it was unfruitful.

See above.

You are the one who fails to see.

There is no edification for the mind. Paul is talking about spiritual edification. Our spirit prays, therefore it is our spirit that is edified.

No edification for the mind? Lunatic.

Your argument is with Paul, not me.

My argument appears to be with your understanding of Paul.

You do not understand spiritual edification. Paul said that he prays with his spirit, and he prays with his understanding. This means that when we pray in the Spirit, we do not know what we are praying.
It is purely an act of faith that is humiliating to the flesh (have another look at Rom 8:26).

If they cannot be uttered how do we utter them?

How can it be irrelevant?
Is someone going to interpret a song?
Or is it simply worship in the Spirit?

lain:

Praying and singing in tongues are no different.

Prophecy hasn't ceased, as the scripture you quoted shows.

Eph 4:11-14
He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

This hasn't happened yet.

It does not show that it has yet to cease. Only that it had not ceased at that time.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
-1 Corinthians 13:8-10

Also

1 Corinthians 1:7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ

Paul expected the gifts to be in operation until Christ was revealed.

aka, until that which is perfect has come.

Why are you so sure it has not come?

The experience of it comes and goes. When God puts his word in you it will burn. Jeremiah was a prophet, he wasn't just expressing his own thoughts and opinions. They were inspired utterances.

When the truth is in you it does not come and go. If it wanes it is emotional hype.

 

[andyc]

If you can't come up with anything new, this will be my last post on this subject, because we're simply repeating ourselves. One thing I don't like about one on ones is that it's a challenge, and I would prefer it if you would think about these things positively, rather than simply trying to tare my arguments apart.
There are awesome blessings to be had if you could see them available for you.

Maybe so, but we will desire some more than others. Of course, if they are not currently available, at least not in the amount they were when they were needed, then it doesn't matter.

You haven't yet disproved that they are currently unavailable. You seem to not care if they are or not.

Your failure is in indicating that Timothy did not have the faith to be healed. In doing this you are accusing Paul of making the same claim.

No, I said that sickness can be a trial of our faith. Healing is not necessarily automatic, regardless of whether you're young in the faith or a Pastor/evangelist.

The truth of the matter is that supernatural healing was not necessary.

You have Nothing to base that on.

So faith the size of a mustard seed is no good then?

If he had it, he may well have been healed later. Scripture doesn't say that he wasn't.

:bang:

If they are not as currently active there is a reason. And that reason is necessity, or lack thereof.

What is the reason for there being no necessity?

They do it to themselves.

And the sexual immorality abundant in these churches is sad. And it stems from the emotional hype, and the reliance on those emotions. They follow their emotions believing them to be true passion, and that leads to them falling into bed when they should not. Because they have led themselves to believe that if it feels good it do it, even if their superegos say otherwise.

This doesn't take place only in charismatic pentecostal churches, and I don't know any Pentecostal churches where this does happen. I'm just giving you the benefit of the doubt. There were people in the church at Corinth who were carnal, but Paul still told them to be zealous for the gifts.
Even Pentecostals have flesh, and have to mature like non Pentecostals.

As active as he will be right before he is finally cast away? Or as active as he was when God incarnate was walking the Earth?

Satan doesn't become less active and more active in any given time. He is our adversary, and goes around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, regardless of what point in history it is. And as I said, this has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit anyway.

What do we need God's power to do?

Evangelize, heal, deliver etc.

And?

This is exactly my point.

Which is?

There's a difference between accepting them and demanding them.

Which means they are necessary?

Back that up.

The church is struggling in its witness. We are under attack from the world, and the devil is behind the scene stirring it all up. These are dark days, and they will be getting worse.

2Tim 3:1-5
1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

If Paul was alive today, he would not believe the immorality in the world, and the hate against Christians, and the struggle of the church to be a strong witness for Christ. I'm not sure what planet you're living on.

:bang:

They don't bring people to Christ. this does not make them bad. Only unnecessary.

Oh really?

We have Peter raising a girl from death in Acts 9:40, and the result of that was...

42 And it became known throughout all Joppa, and many believed on the Lord.

Other scriptures

John 11:45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him.

Acts 8:6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

John 4:53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour in which Jesus said to him, "Your son lives." And he himself believed, and his whole household.

John 7:31 And many of the people believed in Him, and said, "When the Christ comes, will He do more signs than these which this Man has done?"

Clean the drool off your keyboard.

This is why I'm getting bored talking to you. You're in denial of scripture, and are just saying anything in response.

And do you know this from experience?

What do you think. I'm a Pentecostal.

If it remains to be understood then it does not edify. Edification can only come when it is understood. This is why he says his understanding is unfruitful.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself

Who's wrong? You or Paul?

And if it is actually just gibberish it certainly does not edify.

Not the natural mind.

Why would it?

Already explained. You're going round in circles.

those verses fail to support your argument. He already had the Spirit. So do we.

Jesus' own Spirit was divine. Our spirit is regenerated to be conformed to his likeness. However, Jesus also needed to be filled with the Holy Spirit (the third person of the trinity), in order to to minister under the anointing.
The Holy Spirit came on Jesus at his baptism, and he was imediately led into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil, and then went forth in power.

Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

John Gill Comments on this verse
And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost, &c.] The Spirit of God having descended on him at his baptism, and afresh anointed, and filled his human nature with his gifts, whereby, as man, he was abundantly furnished for the great work of the public ministry, he was just about to enter upon; yet must first go through a series of temptations, and which, through the fulness of the Holy Spirit in him, he was sufficiently fortified against.

And you have yet to prove me wrong. So, who asked first?

There is nothing in scripture suggesting that the gifts of the Spirit have ended.
If you believe they have ended, you have to show me where from scripture, after all, the gifts are there, and Paul tells us to seek and desire them. I cannot be condemned for doing what Paul tells me to do in scripture.

So? This does not prove that the "word" was for you. Only that God was not against you going. And that is no surprise. For God desires us to preach in all our situations, no matter where we may be.

Ok, so you reject it. No big deal. I thought I'd give you an example of the gift working in my church.

I'd have to hear it for myself. I believe God without seeing, but not men.:nono:

Fair enough, but you won't hear it unless you venture into pentecostal churches.

Inflammatory much?

Not very bright, are you?

If men and angels speak the same languages then it can be said they are the languages of men and angels. If Paul had written, "the tongues of mean and the tongues of angels," you might have an argument. But that isn't what he said. And it makes perfect sense.

It's impossible to reason with you.
Paul is talking about the languages of men and angels. An angel has no specific earthly language. The context is about using the gifts in love. The ability to speak in an unlearned language, is useless You are the one who needs to have a rethink.

Jamieson Fausset Brown
of angels—higher than men, and therefore, it is to be supposed, speaking a more exalted language.

I'm not refusing to accept anything. I never said it was spoken to men. All I said is that it is supposed to be a sign to men.

How can it be a sign to men if no one understands the one speaking?
Obviously there must be a different gift of tongues other than the congregational gift. The same gift of tongues that Paul operated in a lot outside the church perhaps?

You apparently don't know the first thing about intellectual honesty.

You are not being honest with scripture, but I think you will now at least see that Pentecostals have a strong case from scripture, even if you still can't accept it.

The verses in question are clear that the gift of tongues, when it was available, was not to everyone. The A/G is wrong.

1 Corinthians 14:5 Now I would have you all speak with tongues

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all

1 Corinthians 14:23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues..........

And if he did not understand it was unfruitful.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

No edification for the mind? Lunatic.

You're going to have to admit that it is something that is scriptural, but you do not understand it.

My argument appears to be with your understanding of Paul.

Then you explain to me how someone who speaks in tongues, edifies himself?

If they cannot be uttered how do we utter them?

They cannot be uttered using words from our intellect, because human language is too limited for the Holy Spirit to express himself through us.

lain:

Praying and singing in tongues are no different.

Oh come on.
Paul laid down how the congregational gift of tongues was to be used.

1 Corinthians 14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

He also explained how that he spoke in tongues more than all outside the church. Do you honestly think he went around singing in tongues and waited for an interpretation?

It does not show that it has yet to cease. Only that it had not ceased at that time.

No, Paul said that Christ gave some to be prophets until we all come to the unity of the faith, which is talking about the perfection of the body.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
-1 Corinthians 13:8-10


aka, until that which is perfect has come.

Why are you so sure it has not come?

1 Corinthians 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

To know fully as we are fully known, is talking about our relationship with the Lord. Until we are face to face with him in the kingdom of heaven, we can only live by faith (in part).

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Now abide faith, hope, love. The only one of these three which shall remain, is love. Faith and hope will not be needed when we are in heaven, for we shall know the Lord, as we are known, and there will be no more need for any of the gifts.

When the truth is in you it does not come and go. If it wanes it is emotional hype.

If you say so, but there are times and seasons.

 

[Lighthouse]

If you can't come up with anything new, this will be my last post on this subject, because we're simply repeating ourselves. One thing I don't like about one on ones is that it's a challenge, and I would prefer it if you would think about these things positively, rather than simply trying to tare my arguments apart.

Do you not understand what debate is?

There are awesome blessings to be had if you could see them available for you.

I already told you, I spent time in an A/G church. Nothing but emotional hype.

You haven't yet disproved that they are currently unavailable. You seem to not care if they are or not.

I don't actually think they are completely unavailable. Sometimes, in some places, they are necessary. But the Pentecostal movement overuses, abuses, and misuses them. And most of the time uses a counterfeit. And they don;t even realize it because they don't desire the understanding. They just want to feel good. Then they keep chasing it like a high because it never lasts.

No, I said that sickness can be a trial of our faith. Healing is not necessarily automatic, regardless of whether you're young in the faith or a Pastor/evangelist.

God: I want to test Andy's faith, so I'm going to make him ill.

Seriously? That's how you see God?

You have Nothing to base that on.

I most certainly do. Timothy didn't need it, or Paul would have proscribed it. But it was just a stomach ache. No need for divine intervention.

If he had it, he may well have been healed later. Scripture doesn't say that he wasn't.

Can you touch your toes yet?

What is the reason for there being no necessity?

Because we've moved beyond into a new period of the dispensation. Faith comes by hearing, not by sight.

This doesn't take place only in charismatic pentecostal churches, and I don't know any Pentecostal churches where this does happen. I'm just giving you the benefit of the doubt. There were people in the church at Corinth who were carnal, but Paul still told them to be zealous for the gifts.
Even Pentecostals have flesh, and have to mature like non Pentecostals.

I know those aren't the only places it happens, but it seems to happen in them more often.

Pentecostals today aren't zealous for the gifts. They want the emotional high.

Satan doesn't become less active and more active in any given time. He is our adversary, and goes around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, regardless of what point in history it is. And as I said, this has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit anyway.

Compare the numerous times Jesus had to cast out demons, or the healing He did and raising from the dead to what we see now. There is a reason it doesn't happen that much. And it isn't lack of faith.

Evangelize, heal, deliver etc.

When was the last time you did either of the latter two?

Which is?

His words and deeds are not enough for Charismatics. They always want more. If they don't get it they assume God is not there. And I think that God gets so fed up with this that He does actually leave.

Which means they are necessary?

No.

[The church is struggling in its witness. We are under attack from the world, and the devil is behind the scene stirring it all up. These are dark days, and they will be getting worse.

Satan doesn't need to stir anything up. The world hates us through their own wickedness. Satan's just sitting back enjoying the show.

2Tim 3:1-5
1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

Do you think we won;t know it's a Bible verse if it's the same color as the rest of the text?

Pertinent to the point, though: as I said men are wicked. That's what this verse shows. Men will get worse. And Satan doesn;t need to do anything.

If Paul was alive today, he would not believe the immorality in the world, and the hate against Christians, and the struggle of the church to be a strong witness for Christ. I'm not sure what planet you're living on.

When did I say otherwise?

Oh really?

We have Peter raising a girl from death in Acts 9:40, and the result of that was...

42 And it became known throughout all Joppa, and many believed on the Lord.

Other scriptures

John 11:45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him.

Acts 8:6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

John 4:53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour in which Jesus said to him, "Your son lives." And he himself believed, and his whole household.

John 7:31 And many of the people believed in Him, and said, "When the Christ comes, will He do more signs than these which this Man has done?"

This is why I'm getting bored talking to you. You're in denial of scripture, and are just saying anything in response.

These were all people seeking the Messiah. I'm not denying anything.

What do you think. I'm a Pentecostal.

So was I.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself

Who's wrong? You or Paul?

And he who speaks gibberish gets an emotional high that doesn't last.

When I pray now the edification doesn't go away. It doesn't even wane. The churches who preach that everyone should speak in tongues teach vain babbling that give you warm fuzzies. It's nothing more than the power of suggestion, and Criss Angel can do that.

Not the natural mind.

Here's your failure. Any true edification is going to edify the whole you.

Already explained. You're going round in circles.

No you haven't. you've given an opinion and gave it no support.

Jesus' own Spirit was divine. Our spirit is regenerated to be conformed to his likeness. However, Jesus also needed to be filled with the Holy Spirit (the third person of the trinity), in order to to minister under the anointing.
The Holy Spirit came on Jesus at his baptism, and he was imediately led into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil, and then went forth in power.

Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

John Gill Comments on this verse
And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost, &c.] The Spirit of God having descended on him at his baptism, and afresh anointed, and filled his human nature with his gifts, whereby, as man, he was abundantly furnished for the great work of the public ministry, he was just about to enter upon; yet must first go through a series of temptations, and which, through the fulness of the Holy Spirit in him, he was sufficiently fortified against.

This assumes He wasn't already filled. "Being filled" and "becoming filled" are not the same thing.

And the Holy Spirit did not come upon Him in that it filled Him. The dove landed as a sign that Jesus was Messiah.

There is nothing in scripture suggesting that the gifts of the Spirit have ended.
If you believe they have ended, you have to show me where from scripture, after all, the gifts are there, and Paul tells us to seek and desire them. I cannot be condemned for doing what Paul tells me to do in scripture.

When that which is perfect has come they will cease. the Bible says that, flat out.

Ok, so you reject it. No big deal. I thought I'd give you an example of the gift working in my church.

I don't reject it. I just don't see proof for your claim that it was meant for you.

Fair enough, but you won't hear it unless you venture into pentecostal churches.

Been there, done that. And I didn't get any lousy T-Shirts, but I did get a lot of lousy doctrine.

It's impossible to reason with you.
Paul is talking about the languages of men and angels. An angel has no specific earthly language. The context is about using the gifts in love. The ability to speak in an unlearned language, is useless You are the one who needs to have a rethink.

Do you think Adam and Eve spoke in a language different from that of the angels?

Jamieson Fausset Brown
of angels—higher than men, and therefore, it is to be supposed, speaking a more exalted language.

Where does the Bible say angels are higher than men? Wasn't Lucy's beef that men were esteemed higher than the angels?

How can it be a sign to men if no one understands the one speaking?
Obviously there must be a different gift of tongues other than the congregational gift. The same gift of tongues that Paul operated in a lot outside the church perhaps?

How is it a sign if they understand? If you hear someone speaking in English are you going to automatically think God must be in that place?

You are not being honest with scripture, but I think you will now at least see that Pentecostals have a strong case from scripture, even if you still can't accept it.

I couldn't accept it when I was a Pentecostal. When I actually read the Bible I kept coming to the realization that the church was not actually preaching the word, but what they wanted to believe it said. I actually became somewhat of an open theist when I was 16 because I couldn't reconcile the church's teaching on God's omniscience with His character.

1 Corinthians 14:5 Now I would have you all speak with tongues

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all

1 Corinthians 14:23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues..........

So what?

1 Corinthians 14:4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

And he who thinks feeling tingly is edification fools himself.

You're going to have to admit that it is something that is scriptural, but you do not understand it.

I called you a lunatic because edification from God is for the whole being.

Then you explain to me how someone who speaks in tongues, edifies himself?

I didn't say they don't. Assuming they are actually speaking in tongues as per the gift of the Spirit.

They cannot be uttered using words from our intellect, because human language is too limited for the Holy Spirit to express himself through us.

Light that hoop on fire next time. It might be more impressive.

Oh come on.
Paul laid down how the congregational gift of tongues was to be used.

1 Corinthians 14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

And?

He also explained how that he spoke in tongues more than all outside the church. Do you honestly think he went around singing in tongues and waited for an interpretation?

Where does He say "outside the church"?

No, Paul said that Christ gave some to be prophets until we all come to the unity of the faith, which is talking about the perfection of the body.

Back that up.

1 Corinthians 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

To know fully as we are fully known, is talking about our relationship with the Lord. Until we are face to face with him in the kingdom of heaven, we can only live by faith (in part).

And? Is this supposed to make a difference to this issue?

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Now abide faith, hope, love. The only one of these three which shall remain, is love. Faith and hope will not be needed when we are in heaven, for we shall know the Lord, as we are known, and there will be no more need for any of the gifts.

There will be no more need for the gifts of faith and hope.

If you say so, but there are times and seasons.

 

[andyc]

Do you not understand what debate is?


I already told you, I spent time in an A/G church. Nothing but emotional hype.


I don't actually think they are completely unavailable. Sometimes, in some places, they are necessary. But the Pentecostal movement overuses, abuses, and misuses them. And most of the time uses a counterfeit. And they don;t even realize it because they don't desire the understanding. They just want to feel good. Then they keep chasing it like a high because it never lasts.


God: I want to test Andy's faith, so I'm going to make him ill.

Seriously? That's how you see God?


I most certainly do. Timothy didn't need it, or Paul would have proscribed it. But it was just a stomach ache. No need for divine intervention.


Can you touch your toes yet?


Because we've moved beyond into a new period of the dispensation. Faith comes by hearing, not by sight.


I know those aren't the only places it happens, but it seems to happen in them more often.

Pentecostals today aren't zealous for the gifts. They want the emotional high.


Compare the numerous times Jesus had to cast out demons, or the healing He did and raising from the dead to what we see now. There is a reason it doesn't happen that much. And it isn't lack of faith.


When was the last time you did either of the latter two?


His words and deeds are not enough for Charismatics. They always want more. If they don't get it they assume God is not there. And I think that God gets so fed up with this that He does actually leave.


No.


Satan doesn't need to stir anything up. The world hates us through their own wickedness. Satan's just sitting back enjoying the show.


Do you think we won;t know it's a Bible verse if it's the same color as the rest of the text?

Pertinent to the point, though: as I said men are wicked. That's what this verse shows. Men will get worse. And Satan doesn;t need to do anything.


When did I say otherwise?


These were all people seeking the Messiah. I'm not denying anything.


So was I.


And he who speaks gibberish gets an emotional high that doesn't last.

When I pray now the edification doesn't go away. It doesn't even wane. The churches who preach that everyone should speak in tongues teach vain babbling that give you warm fuzzies. It's nothing more than the power of suggestion, and Criss Angel can do that.


Here's your failure. Any true edification is going to edify the whole you.


No you haven't. you've given an opinion and gave it no support.


This assumes He wasn't already filled. "Being filled" and "becoming filled" are not the same thing.

And the Holy Spirit did not come upon Him in that it filled Him. The dove landed as a sign that Jesus was Messiah.


When that which is perfect has come they will cease. the Bible says that, flat out.


I don't reject it. I just don't see proof for your claim that it was meant for you.


Been there, done that. And I didn't get any lousy T-Shirts, but I did get a lot of lousy doctrine.


Do you think Adam and Eve spoke in a language different from that of the angels?


Where does the Bible say angels are higher than men? Wasn't Lucy's beef that men were esteemed higher than the angels?


How is it a sign if they understand? If you hear someone speaking in English are you going to automatically think God must be in that place?


I couldn't accept it when I was a Pentecostal. When I actually read the Bible I kept coming to the realization that the church was not actually preaching the word, but what they wanted to believe it said. I actually became somewhat of an open theist when I was 16 because I couldn't reconcile the church's teaching on God's omniscience with His character.


So what?


And he who thinks feeling tingly is edification fools himself.


I called you a lunatic because edification from God is for the whole being.


I didn't say they don't. Assuming they are actually speaking in tongues as per the gift of the Spirit.


Light that hoop on fire next time. It might be more impressive.


And?


Where does He say "outside the church"?


Back that up.


And? Is this supposed to make a difference to this issue?


There will be no more need for the gifts of faith and hope.

Well, I've covered what you've said here. I was hoping you would argue your case from scripture, but you insist on giving me your personal opinions.

 

[Lighthouse]

Well, I've covered what you've said here. I was hoping you would argue your case from scripture, but you insist on giving me your personal opinions.

I gave you Scripture. You don't want to listen to it because of the implications.