One on One: Tip toe through the TULIPs with docrob57 and Knight.

[Nathon Detroit]

docrob57, has asked that he be granted a thread so that he has the chance to convince me of the Calvinist TULIP and I have agreed. The ironic thing is I believe that docrob57 has the ability to convince, yet he believes (via Calvinism) that he has no such ability.

So, now that we are all confused.....

docrob57, shoot when ready errrr..... shoot when God makes you shoot.

 

[docrob57]

docrob57, has asked that he be granted a thread so that he has the chance to convince me of the Calvinist TULIP and I have agreed. The ironic thing is I believe that docrob57 has the ability to convince, yet he believes (via Calvinism) that he has no such ability.

So, now that we are all confused.....

docrob57, shoot when ready errrr..... shoot when God makes you shoot.

Already I have erred in that I misread Knight's initial post.

 

[docrob57]

Okay, I will begin, and then I have to go home.

For the uninitiated, TULIP is as acronym standing for:

Total depravity (though I like KNight's "total inability" better.)
Unconditional election
Limited atonement (most prefer "particular redemption," but it messes up the acronym)
Irresistible grace (efficacious calling)
Perserverence of the Saints.

Together, these are commonly known as the "5 points of Calvinism," or the "Doctrines of Grace."

Let us start with point 1 - Total depravity.

First, I would like to establish common ground. At least I think it is common ground. Can we both agree that, due to the sin of Adam, we have inherited and are born with a sinful nature?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Let us start with point 1 - Total depravity.

First, I would like to establish common ground. At least I think it is common ground. Can we both agree that, due to the sin of Adam, we have inherited and are born with a sinful nature?

Yes. We have the flesh and therefore we have the propensity to sin. However, I am sure you agree that since the cross (Rom 5) we are no longer held accountable for Adam's sin yet now only held accountable for our own sin.

Any disagreement?

 

[docrob57]

Yes. We have the flesh and therefore we have the propensity to sin. However, I am sure you agree that since the cross (Rom 5) we are no longer held accountable for Adam's sin yet now only held accountable for our own sin.

Any disagreement?

I'm not sure. Since there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom 8:1, of course) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us and we are no longer accountable for sin at all if we are in Christ. Also, I am not sure if it is true that we were ever accountable per se for Adam's sin. I think it is more that Adam's sin introduced sinfulness into our nature, and as our ultimate earthly ancestor, we are all subject to that inheritance.

If we are not in Christ, however, we retain the sin nature, unchecked by the divine nature.

So how far off are we?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I'm not sure. Since there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom 8:1, of course) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us and we are no longer accountable for sin at all if we are in Christ. Also, I am not sure if it is true that we were ever accountable per se for Adam's sin. I think it is more that Adam's sin introduced sinfulness into our nature, and as our ultimate earthly ancestor, we are all subject to that inheritance.

If we are not in Christ, however, we retain the sin nature, unchecked by the divine nature.

So how far off are we?

I'm not sure, and I don't want to get off topic so why don't you continue on.

 

[docrob57]

I'm not sure, and I don't want to get off topic so why don't you continue on.

Well, I anticipated that to the point that we have gotten so far we would be in agreement. I am not trying to slow things down, but I think it is important to understand each other's beliefs at a foundational level. So given that, and the fact that I am going to bed now, why don't you go ahead and indicate where you stand on these points.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Well, I anticipated that to the point that we have gotten so far we would be in agreement. I am not trying to slow things down, but I think it is important to understand each other's beliefs at a foundational level. So given that, and the fact that I am going to bed now, why don't you go ahead and indicate where you stand on these points.

Uh.... I thought I already did.

 

[docrob57]

Uh.... I thought I already did.

Okay, already we are having communications difficulties. But that's okay, we move on.

I was surprised to see a post on another thread which indicates that another orthodox doctrine that the OVers deny is the doctrine of original sin. So that seems like a good place to start, since that is the basis for Total Depravity.

Calvinists argue that man is "totally depraved," which does not mean that everyone does as much evil as they are capable of, rather, that man, due to his corrupt nature, inherited from Adam, is incapable of anything but sin. He is spiritually dead and, therefore, incapable of seeking God or desiring personal righteousness. Some Biblical support:

1 Cor 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 8:10
But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Verses such as these (and of course the truth that "the wages of sin is death") all imply that man in his unregenerated state is dead, and the death must refer to spiritual death, and that this death came into the world through Adam and has spead to all. Accordingly, the Reformed doctrine claims that man, a spiritual corpse, is incapable of godliness or seeking godliness.

So at what points do you disagree with this?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

So at what points do you disagree with this?

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. 6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam - see verse 14) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned — 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense (Adam) many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one (Adam) offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification (Justification from Adam's sin) . 17 For if by the one man’s offense (Adam) death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense (Adam) judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. (All men receive justification from Adam's sin through Christ's death on the cross) 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous . 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

Therefore, because of Christ's work on the cross no man is condemned for Adam's sin. It is our own sin that condemns us. Little babies that die are not sent to eternal torment because of Adam's sin.

By the way... none of this is OV theology per se. This is orthodox Christian doctrine. It's the Calvinists that twist this basic teaching because they think that God cannot change and therefore all men remain guilty of Adam's sin because God cannot change.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Doc, just to make things easier... if you have a question you want me to respond to or a point you want me to respond to please hi-light it in some way. I like to place all my points and or questions that I seek responses to at the bottom of the post so it's easy to figure out.

 

[docrob57]

Are you saying that you beleive in universal salvation?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Are you saying that you beleive in universal salvation?

Uh..... are you reading my posts?

Doc, this is not going to be a fruitful discussion if you are going to ignore the things I say to you.

I clearly stated...

It is our own sin that condemns us.

And earlier I stated....

...we are no longer held accountable for Adam's sin yet now only held accountable for our own sin.

OK, I have a meeting today so I will be back later. Lets not waste anymore posts with questions that have already been answered OK?

 

[docrob57]

Uh..... are you reading my posts?

Doc, this is not going to be a fruitful discussion if you are going to ignore the things I say to you.

I clearly stated...And earlier I stated....OK, I have a meeting today so I will be back later. Lets not waste anymore posts with questions that have already been answered OK?

With all due respect your theology isn't even close to orthodox Christian doctrine, so it is a little difficult to try to understand the point you are trying to make. It would seem, then, that since you reject the doctrine of original sin, and maintain, apparently, that we are born without sin, then it is at least possible to lead a sinless life, is that correct?

 

[docrob57]

Lets not waste anymore posts with questions that have already been answered OK?

How about at least showing enough respect to assume that if, in fact, you have answered a question and I have not understood the answer that you might, perhaps, seek to make your position more clear.

Regardless of the rightness or wrongness of either of our positions, I would hope that we could keep the tone more civil here.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

With all due respect your theology isn't even close to orthodox Christian doctrine, so it is a little difficult to try to understand the point you are trying to make. It would seem, then, that since you reject the doctrine of original sin, and maintain, apparently, that we are born without sin, then it is at least possible to lead a sinless life, is that correct?

Again... because of the cross we are born justified from Adam's sin (Rom 5). Yet we do have the flesh therefore we have the propensity to sin and when we reach the age where we are old enough to know good and evil we become responsible for our own sin that every man is guilty of sooner or later.

Paul makes it clear he was alive without the law.....

Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

And without the law we know that...
Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Clearly then Paul was not under the law nor guilty of any sin prior to the age he became accountable for his own sin. This is all pretty standard stuff and has little to do with Openness theology.

 

[docrob57]

Again... because of the cross we are born justified from Adam's sin (Rom 5). Yet we do have the flesh therefore we have the propensity to sin and when we reach the age where we are old enough to know good and evil we become responsible for our own sin that every man is guilty of sooner or later.

Paul makes it clear he was alive without the law.....

Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

And without the law we know that...
Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Clearly then Paul was not under the law nor guilty of any sin prior to the age he became accountable for his own sin. This is all pretty standard stuff and has little to do with Openness theology.

It does have a lot to do with the doctrine of total depravity, however, and that is what we are discussing. So, if I understand what you are saying, we are born with a propensity to sin and, though we may sin in between birth and an age of accountability, we are not responsible for it during that period of time. From your previous posts, it appears that this was not the case prior to the crucifixion, at which time we were held accountable for Adam's sin, and did, in fact, inherit a sinful nature.

This raises what appear to be some interesting questions. Can a person overcome this propensity to sin in the post-crucifixion era? How pervasive is this tendency? Can a person confine himself to sin that does not "lead to death?"

What I am trying to understand here is the extent to which your perspectives on human nature are compatible with total depravity, if that helps.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

What I am trying to understand here is the extent to which your perspectives on human nature are compatible with total depravity, if that helps.

My "perspectives" are not compatible with total depravity.

Nobody but Adam has ever been sent to hell for the sin of Adam.

Again this isn't breaking news.... God is pretty clear...

Jeremiah 31:29 “In those days they shall say no more: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ 30 “But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Ancient Calvinists used to say that sons died for the sins of their fathers and it drove God crazy! They would use the phrase.... ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ God implored that they not use that phrase anymore.

Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge’? 3 “As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel. 4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.


God's word screams to us.... :sozo: As I live... you shall no longer use this proverb (‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge’). The soul who sins shall die.

 

[docrob57]

My "perspectives" are not compatible with total depravity.

Nobody but Adam has ever been sent to hell for the sin of Adam.

Again this isn't breaking news.... God is pretty clear...

Jeremiah 31:29 “In those days they shall say no more: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ 30 “But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Ancient Calvinists used to say that sons died for the sins of their fathers and it drove God crazy! They would use the phrase.... ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ God implored that they not use that phrase anymore.

Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying: ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge’? 3 “As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel. 4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.


God's word screams to us.... :sozo: As I live... you shall no longer use this proverb (‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children’s teeth are set on edge’). The soul who sins shall die.

Okay. so then could you please answer the specific questions that I posed.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

waste post, waste post, waste post.