Theology Club: Open Theism Destroys Arminianism??

[Derf]

Derf,

I asked you:

So you think that the words of Paul when he speaks of "things which are not seen" are things which we can actually see with our eyes!​

To this you answered:



With that in mind then you should be able to understand that the body worn by the Lord Jesus now in heaven is not a "physical" body, as you imagined. The Lord Jesus is now in heaven which is described as eternity (Isa.57:15). In our natural bodies we are not equipped to see things which are eternal in nature:

"For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18. While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor.4:16-18).​

In the very next verse Paul makes it plain that the heavenly body which we will put on is "eternal" in nature:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor.5:1).

Since we will put on bodies like the Lord Jesus' glorious body we can know that His body now is a spiritual, heavenly body which is described as being "eternal."

I think [MENTION=81]themuzicman[/MENTION] did a bang-up job illustrating the futility of a resurrectionless resurrection, and pointing out, as I had before, that Christ showed what the resurrection was like with His bodily resurrection. I'd add that besides the corruptible part being sinfulness, it is likely that we won't have aging effects either (where our bodies get more feeble as time goes on), though we might still have maturing effects.

Are you denying Christ's bodily resurrection? Seems to leave you in a precarious position.

Since the first passage is in regard to "salvation" then we know that the passage which follows is also in regard to "salvation":

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

Therefore, when Peter talks about people being chosen or elected through the LORD's foreknowledge he is speaking about "individual" salvation. And we do not that salvation is in regard to "individuals":

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

Now back to my original argument.

As creatures we are constrained by time. We cannot even know if someone will be alive tomorrow, much less know who will believe and be saved sometime in the future. On the other hand, the LORD is not constrained by time because He knows who in the future will believe and be saved and who will not believe.

Therfore, the LORD exists outside of time.

There are many verses that speak of general commands or descriptions being applied to singular persons. The whole of the Mosaic law was given to "Israel"--Israel was God's chosen people--but each member of Israel was to keep the law. Both Jews and Gentiles are welcome at God's table--the chosen people is not exclusive to race now--but they all must believe.

And back to your original argument: So you would paint yourself as an Arminian, according to my original descriptions. And you don't seem to think that Open Theism "destroys" Arminianism, since you continue to ascribe to the idea that God "looks" at the future to determine who is elect.

But you haven't yet dealt with the idea that even if God is "outside of time" He still experiences "befores" and "afters", especially since there was a "before" time began (eg., No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. [1Co 2:7 NIV]). Dismissing such verses as untrue because man can't understand the concepts is not a very flattering way to view God and His ability to communicate.

Based on your denial of the concepts of "before time began", Christ's bodily resurrection and ascension, and indeed "foreknowledge", not to mention His becoming a man (Phil 2:8), I wonder which part of the bible you actually do believe?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you denying Christ's bodily resurrection? Seems to leave you in a precarious position.

I do not deny Christ's bodily resurrection? Did you not read what I said in my last post to themuzicman?:

The Greek word translated "resurrection" means "a raising from the dead...that of Christ" (Thayer's Greek -English Lexicon).

Since the Lord was on the earth when He died then He was brought back to life in an earthly body. The bodies which we will be clothed upon will be bodies which will be adaptable to the environment in which we exist.

Since the Lord Jesus will be wearing a heavenly, spiritual body when the saints meet Him in the air and put on bodies like His we too will have heavenly, spiritual bodies.​

You seem to think that a "heavenly" body is just like an "earthly" body except the heavenly body will not age and be without sin. Do you really think that sin attaches to one's body?:

I'd add that besides the corruptible part being sinfulness, it is likely that we won't have aging effects either (where our bodies get more feeble as time goes on), though we might still have maturing effects.

What will you come up with next? And you said absolutely nothing at all about the fact that flesh and blood bodies will have no part in the heavenly kingdom (1 Cor.15:50).

You also said:

There are many verses that speak of general commands or descriptions being applied to singular persons. The whole of the Mosaic law was given to "Israel"--Israel was God's chosen people--but each member of Israel was to keep the law. Both Jews and Gentiles are welcome at God's table--the chosen people is not exclusive to race now--but they all must believe.

That answers nothing about the following two verses. The first passage is in regard to "salvation" then we know that the passage which follows is also in regard to "salvation":

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

Therefore, when Peter talks about people being chosen or elected through the LORD's foreknowledge he is speaking about "individual" salvation. And we do not that salvation is in regard to "individuals":

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

In regard to these two verses you say that "are many verses that speak of general commands or descriptions being applied to singular persons."

That does not answer the fact that both of the verses which I quoted are speaking about "individual" salvation. The fact that the gospel is preached to many people does not change the fact that it is "individuals" who believe it and are saved.

Do you want to argue that salvation at the present time is "corporate" in nature and so is believing?

Now back to my original argument.

As creatures we are constrained by time. We cannot even know if someone will be alive tomorrow, much less know who will believe and be saved sometime in the future. On the other hand, the LORD is not constrained by time because He knows who in the future will believe and be saved and who will not believe.

Therefore, the LORD exists outside of time.

 

[Derf]

I do not deny Christ's bodily resurrection? Did you not read what I said in my last post to themuzicman?:

The Greek word translated "resurrection" means "a raising from the dead...that of Christ" (Thayer's Greek -English Lexicon).

Since the Lord was on the earth when He died then He was brought back to life in an earthly body. The bodies which we will be clothed upon will be bodies which will be adaptable to the environment in which we exist.

Since the Lord Jesus will be wearing a heavenly, spiritual body when the saints meet Him in the air and put on bodies like His we too will have heavenly, spiritual bodies.​

You seem to think that a "heavenly" body is just like an "earthly" body except the heavenly body will not age and be without sin. Do you really think that sin attaches to one's body?:



What will you come up with next? And you said absolutely nothing at all about the fact that flesh and blood bodies will have no part in the heavenly kingdom (1 Cor.15:50).

I'm speculating here about what we will be like, but at lest I admit it. 1 John 3:2.

You also said:



That answers nothing about the following two verses. The first passage is in regard to "salvation" then we know that the passage which follows is also in regard to "salvation":

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).​

Therefore, when Peter talks about people being chosen or elected through the LORD's foreknowledge he is speaking about "individual" salvation. And we do not that salvation is in regard to "individuals":

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

In regard to these two verses you say that "are many verses that speak of general commands or descriptions being applied to singular persons."

That does not answer the fact that both of the verses which I quoted are speaking about "individual" salvation. The fact that the gospel is preached to many people does not change the fact that it is "individuals" who believe it and are saved.

Do you want to argue that salvation at the present time is "corporate" in nature and so is believing?

It does answer something, if you're willing to accept it as an answer. If you read it carefully, it says that the verse could be corporately addressed without removing the individual responsibility of believing.

Now back to my original argument.

As creatures we are constrained by time. We cannot even know if someone will be alive tomorrow, much less know who will believe and be saved sometime in the future. On the other hand, the LORD is not constrained by time because He knows who in the future will believe and be saved and who will not believe.

Therefore, the LORD exists outside of time.

Your conclusion is just a restated premise. I think that's called Affirming the Consequent. Only it's doubly so. You assumed the Lord knows who will believe, and you're putting in a definition of "constrained by time" that is not the only possibility.

Thus your conclusion

Therefore, the LORD exists outside of time.

is a restatement of

the LORD is not constrained by time

which is defined by

He knows who in the future will believe and be saved and who will not believe.

I appreciate that this is what you believe, and it is an acceptable version of Arminianism, from what I can see. But it doesn't hold up in light of the obvious instances where the Lord changes what was going to happen--meaning that there was a "future" that turned out not to be the "future". (Hezekiah's illness and recovery, for instance.)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'm speculating here about what we will be like, but at lest I admit it. 1 John 3:2.

We do know somethings about the body when we will be clothed upon when we meet the Lord Jesus in the air, don't we?

We know that it will be a body which is from heaven, a body which is described as being "eternal" (2 Cor.5:1-2).

Right?

We also know that in our earthly bodies we cannot see things which are eternal (2 Cor.4:18).

Right?

Therefore, if the eternal body which you will put on later was standing right in front of me then that body would be invisible.

Right?

With these things in mind then you might know something about our bodies we will wear in the future and those bodies are nothing like the one you describe here:

I'd add that besides the corruptible part being sinfulness, it is likely that we won't have aging effects either (where our bodies get more feeble as time goes on), though we might still have maturing effects.

First you say that the eternal things which "cannot be seen" can be seen. Now you seem to think that the bodies which we wear now actually have sins attached to them! That idea matches the Gnostic belief that evil could actually attach itself to everything corporeal.

It does answer something, if you're willing to accept it as an answer. If you read it carefully, it says that the verse could be corporately addressed without removing the individual responsibility of believing.

It is quite IMPOSSIBLE that this verse has anything at all to do with anything which could be considered of a "corporate" nature:

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

The LORD does not choose "groups" of people to be saved. It is only "individuals" and "individuals" alone who are chosen by the LORD to be saved. And once again I will quote the following verse to prove what I said:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

You know that you must deny the truth revealed at 2 Thessalonians 2:13 because if the LORD knows what will happen in an individual's future then it is obvious that He is not constrained by time and therefore exists outside of time.

It's that simple!

 

[Derf]

We do know somethings about the body when we will be clothed upon when we meet the Lord Jesus in the air, don't we?

We know that it will be a body which is from heaven, a body which is described as being "eternal" (2 Cor.5:1-2).

Right?

I agree.

We also know that in our earthly bodies we cannot see things which are eternal (2 Cor.4:18).

Right?

I disagree. God is eternal, right? And invisible, right? Yet Job says he will see God (Job 19:26).

Therefore, if the eternal body which you will put on later was standing right in front of me then that body would be invisible.

Right?

Your second premise has been shown to be false, wherefore your "therefore" no longer lingers.

With these things in mind then you might know something about our bodies we will wear in the future and those bodies are nothing like the one you describe here:



First you say that the eternal things which "cannot be seen" can be seen. Now you seem to think that the bodies which we wear now actually have sins attached to them! That idea matches the Gnostic belief that evil could actually attach itself to everything corporeal.

Obviously, since the invisible God will be visible to Job in his own flesh, then your argument about "cannot be seen" has no legs. But, perhaps Job was speaking metaphorically, right? Well, not according to the next verse "I myself will see him with my own eyes--I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!" [Job 19:27 NIV]

But you would say to Job, "Tell your heart to be quiet, there's no hope of having eyes, since eyes are for seeing physical, temporal things, and we won't need them."

Rather Job is telling us some important stuff here. He is saying that his person is not complete without his flesh, and his eyes. We may at some point be disembodied spirits, but we're not really men at that point--at least not complete men.

Jesus, when He became a man, took on something that Job describes as indispensable to His being--something He didn't have prior to becoming a man. Jesus took on a new nature, and unless that nature somehow remains, our hope is without basis. It was His human flesh that was raised incorruptible, as ours will be, too, when we are raised to new life. Or we will be changed, if we didn't die before He returns. But not changed away from what we were made to be--physical and material, only having added a spiritual component (and dropped a sin component), just as Jesus added a physical component.

It is quite IMPOSSIBLE

Ah, now I see. Since you are the final arbiter of all things biblical, no one need look any further or seek any other meaning than the one you provide. I wish you had told me that from the beginning of our little discourse--would've saved me a bunch of typing.

that this verse has anything at all to do with anything which could be considered of a "corporate" nature:

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

The LORD does not choose "groups" of people to be saved.

Let's consider this for a moment. I think you're wrong. For instance, did God choose Noah's family to be saved? But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark--you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. [Gen 6:18 NIV] God obviously chose a group of people to save from the flood. So, can you still assert that "the LORD does not choose 'groups' of people to be saved"?

Well, maybe that one was a fluke. Let's check in on some other groups.

Ex 14:13a Moses said to the people, “Do not fear! Stand firm and see the salvation of the Lord that he will provide for you today; (No individuals noted in my translation, how about yours?)

Jer 30:7 In all history there has never been such a time of terror. It will be a time of trouble for my people Israel. Yet in the end they will be saved! (This is obviously talking about a group of people, and talking about a future salvation. There are no indications of individuals at all.)

Here are some more indications of corporate salvation:

• And Saul said, There shall not a man be put to death this day: for to day the LORD hath wrought salvation in Israel. [1Sa 11:13 KJV]
• For he did put his life in his hand, and slew the Philistine, and the LORD wrought a great salvation for all Israel: thou sawest [it], and didst rejoice: wherefore then wilt thou sin against innocent blood, to slay David without a cause? [1Sa 19:5 KJV]
• And say ye, Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to thy holy name, [and] glory in thy praise. [1Ch 16:35 KJV]
• Ye shall not [need] to fight in this [battle]: set yourselves, stand ye [still], and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the LORD [will be] with you. [2Ch 20:17 KJV]
• Oh that the salvation of Israel [were come] out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, [and] Israel shall be glad. [Psa 14:7 KJV]
• Blessed [be] the Lord, [who] daily loadeth us [with benefits, even] the God of our salvation. Selah. [Psa 68:19 KJV]
• "But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13)

Oops, how did that last one get in there? Well, Paul is talking to the "brethren beloved of the Lord", a CORPORATE address.

It is only "individuals" and "individuals" alone who are chosen by the LORD to be saved. And once again I will quote the following verse to prove what I said:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

You know that you must deny the truth revealed at 2 Thessalonians 2:13 because if the LORD knows what will happen in an individual's future then it is obvious that He is not constrained by time and therefore exists outside of time.

It's that simple!

You seem to have trouble with the idea that God works with us in a corporate manner. But He does. He deals with the descendants of Adam as if they were Adam. He deals with the children of Israel as if they were Israel. He dealt with the child of Ham (Canaan) as if He were dealing with Ham. He dealt with the children of Esau as if He were dealing with Esau.

Jesus deals with the churches as single entities ("I will spew you out of my mouth") in Rev 1-3.

And God deals with the "children" of God as if He were dealing with Christ, His only begotten. Those that are "in Christ" will be saved. All of them. No exceptions. Every <single>, <individual> that is part of the corporate body of Christ will be saved. Hallelujah! (There are plenty of discussions about what the corporate body of Christ entails, but for our discussion, it is a corporate body, and we are members of that body.) That is our HOPE--that all children of God (brothers beloved of the Lord) will be saved.

And yet, we also base our hope in the idea that God deals with us as individuals, that He loves us for what He made us--that might not be the same as our fathers and grandfathers.

Can He do both? I think He can, but you seem to think He can't.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I disagree. God is eternal, right? And invisible, right? Yet Job says he will see God (Job 19:26).

Yes, Job will see God in the flesh. And many saw God in the flesh while He walked the earth. The Word was made flesh. You are still trying to prove that eternal things can be seen despite the fact that Paul says that they cannot. Why do you refuse to believe what the Apostle Paul says about that?

This describes the Lord Jesus as He is in heaven now:

"Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever" (1 Tim.1:16-17).​

Rather Job is telling us some important stuff here. He is saying that his person is not complete without his flesh, and his eyes. We may at some point be disembodied spirits, but we're not really men at that point--at least not complete men.

So are you saying that we will no longer be "men" when we enter the heavenly kingdom since those in a flesh and blood body cannot enter there? And are you saying that the Lord Jesus is no longer a man since He now resides in the heavenly kingdom?

Jesus took on a new nature, and unless that nature somehow remains, our hope is without basis.

Since the Lord Jesus is now in heaven without a flesh and blood body are you now without hope?:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).​

It was His human flesh that was raised incorruptible, as ours will be, too, when we are raised to new life.

Did the Lord Jesus enter into the heavenly kingdom in His human flesh?

Or we will be changed, if we didn't die before He returns. But not changed away from what we were made to be--physical and material, only having added a spiritual component (and dropped a sin component), just as Jesus added a physical component.

Will we still have a flesh and blood body when we enter the heavenly kingdom?

God obviously chose a group of people to save from the flood. So, can you still assert that "the LORD does not choose 'groups' of people to be saved"?

I said at the "present" time the LORD is not saving people in groups. Besides that, the subject we were discussing was not about a physical salvation or deliverance, but instead about the salvation of the soul. But since your ideas are coming to a dead end you must grasp at straws.

You seem to have trouble with the idea that God works with us in a corporate manner.

So no one is saved at the present time until every single person in a "group" believes?

Those that are "in Christ" will be saved. All of them. No exceptions. Every <single>, <individual> that is part of the corporate body of Christ will be saved. Hallelujah! (There are plenty of discussions about what the corporate body of Christ entails, but for our discussion, it is a corporate body, and we are members of that body.) That is our HOPE--that all children of God (brothers beloved of the Lord) will be saved.

So are you saying that this baptism is a corporate one:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

I would say "no" because this verse speaks of an "individual" salvation:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

I am just curious. How is it possible that the Lord can save the souls of "individuals" and at the same time be saving the same souls in a "corporate" sense?

Do all of those in a corporate situation have to believe at the same exact moment when all the others do? Could you please explain how this happens?

Thanks!

 

[themuzicman]

Umm.... We're spending eternity on the renewed earth. If we aren't here, then creation hasn't been restored.

 

[themuzicman]

Then tell me what Paul is referring to at 2 Corinthians 5:1-4 when he speaks of men being "found naked" and being "unclothed"?

Death. Soul separated from the body.

2 Cor 5:6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Yes, He was raised from the dead. No one denies that. And we will too. Only we will be raised from the dead in heavenly, spiritual bodies.

Again, you are denying bodily resurrection. That's gnostic heresy.

The Greek word translated "resurrection" means "a raising from the dead...that of Christ" (Thayer's Greek -English Lexicon).

And Christ's resurrection was into his physical body.

Since the Lord was on the earth when He died then He was brought back to life in an earthly body. The bodies which we will be clothed upon will be bodies which will be adaptable to the environment in which we exist.

Which is right back here on earth. A redeemed and restored creation is a necessary outcome of Christ's death. If we are not here, Christ failed.

Since the Lord Jesus will be wearing a heavenly, spiritual body when the saints meet Him in the air and put on bodies like His we too will have heavenly, spiritual bodies.

This is unsupported in Scripture. Nowhere does the bible say that Jesus got another body. Jesus was resurrected once into the body he will have for eternity.

The body which we will put on is described as a heavenly, "eternal" body (2 Cor.5:1). And in the body which we now wear we are not equipped to see things which are "eternal" (2 Cor.4:18). Therefore, the heavenly, spiritual bodies which we will be clothed upon will not be able to be seen by human eyes. After all, no one can enter the heavenly kingdom in flesh and blood bodies (1 Cor.15:50).

This is more Gnosticism. The body that God created for Adam is the body God intended Adam to live eternally in.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Umm.... We're spending eternity on the renewed earth. If we aren't here, then creation hasn't been restored.

Umm....

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved...Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Pet.3:10-11, 13).​

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest" (Heb.1:10-11).​

Nowhere does the bible say that Jesus got another body. Jesus was resurrected once into the body he will have for eternity.

So we are to believe that the Lord Jesus is now in the heavenly kingdom in a flesh and blood body, despite what we read here:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).​

 

[themuzicman]

Umm....

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved...Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Pet.3:10-11, 13).​

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest" (Heb.1:10-11).​

And if you read the end of revelation, you find a new heaven and a new earth (which can be translated renewed), which is the restoration of creation. If we don't end up back on this new or renewed earth, then God has failed.

So we are to believe that the Lord Jesus is now in the heavenly kingdom in a flesh and blood body, despite what we read here:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).​

Again, this is a Gnostic interpretation. Paul's use of "flesh and blood" refers to the sinful nature (similar to how he uses "flesh" in Romans.) Jesus' literal flesh and blood was not imperfect when he was on earth, either before or after his death, but your claim here implies that it was imperfect and not able to inherit the kingdom.

 

[Derf]

Yes, Job will see God in the flesh. And many saw God in the flesh while He walked the earth. The Word was made flesh. You are still trying to prove that eternal things can be seen despite the fact that Paul says that they cannot.

This is beneath you, Jerry. The passage is obviously talking about JOB being in HIS OWN FLESH, using HIS OWN EYES, when he sees his redeemer, who is eternal. And thus you have to come to a different understanding of what Paul was saying here:

Why do you refuse to believe what the Apostle Paul says about that?

This describes the Lord Jesus as He is in heaven now:

"Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever" (1 Tim.1:16-17).​

Well, I don't see Him right now, do you? If He's in heaven, where we can't see Him, then He's invisible to us. But does that mean He's completely without any physical manifestation? Not if we are to believe in His ascension. There's no reason to suggest that He disrobed as He entered heaven and that He will re-robe Himself when He returns. And disrobe and re-robe every time he transits between the new heaven and new earth. That would make His incarnation no more special than what the angels did in the old testament when they appeared as men.

But if He was so invisible, how did Stephen see Him with his eyes?
[Act 7:55-56 KJV] 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

So are you saying that we will no longer be "men" when we enter the heavenly kingdom since those in a flesh and blood body cannot enter there? And are you saying that the Lord Jesus is no longer a man since He now resides in the heavenly kingdom?

No, I'm saying that He is still a man. You're the one that has been saying He no longer has His body. See your next comment:

Since the Lord Jesus is now in heaven without a flesh and blood body are you now without hope?:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).​

Jesus' body was spared from corruption [Act 13:37 KJV] 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. Are you suggesting that His body was corrupted?

Did the Lord Jesus enter into the heavenly kingdom in His human flesh?



Will we still have a flesh and blood body when we enter the heavenly kingdom?

Yes and yes (flesh, at least. I don't know about the blood part).

Regarding when we enter the heavenly kingdom, I think we may already be there:

[Eph 2:6 KJV] 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
[Heb 12:22 KJV] 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

But there remains something else, no doubt. Paul hinted at it in the only place in the bible that uses the phrase "heavenly kingdom" (I did a search in several translations): [2Ti 4:18 NIV] 18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen. But you should note that Paul, in the previous verse, was recounting a particular evil that had threatened him (and that he had escaped): And I was delivered from the lion’s mouth.. So that very verse speaks to the salvation of not just our spirits, but also our bodies.

I said at the "present" time the LORD is not saving people in groups. Besides that, the subject we were discussing was not about a physical salvation or deliverance, but instead about the salvation of the soul. But since your ideas are coming to a dead end you must grasp at straws.

​

What you said was:

The LORD does not choose "groups" of people to be saved. It is only "individuals" and "individuals" alone who are chosen by the LORD to be saved.

Your tacit admission of God's choosing of groups of people to salvation is appreciated, if not very heartfelt on your part.

You may want to limit the conversation to saving of "souls", but salvation is about more than that--it concludes with the resurrection of the body!

So no one is saved at the present time until every single person in a "group" believes?

I didn't say that, nor do I think that anything I've said could be construed to mean that. So who's grasping at straws?

The "group" of Israel was often left with just a remnant. But if the "group" is defined as descendants of Jacob, then as long as there are still descendants of Jacob around, then God can officially say the group has been "saved" up to this point ("saved" meaning that they exist and haven't been destroyed).

So are you saying that this baptism is a corporate one:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Absolutely. I can't see how anyone could get anything else out of it. That doesn't negate an individual's need to be baptized, but the verse is decidedly corporate in nature.

I would say "no" because this verse speaks of an "individual" salvation:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

I am just curious. How is it possible that the Lord can save the souls of "individuals" and at the same time be saving the same souls in a "corporate" sense?

Do all of those in a corporate situation have to believe at the same exact moment when all the others do? Could you please explain how this happens?

Thanks!

Keep in mind that we are all saved by the blood of Christ. We are His body. We are His bride. To be saved we must be "in Him". Christ is our righteousness. There is only ONE "body of Christ". There is only one "Bride of Christ". There is only one "Kingdom of Heaven". So, anything that applies to those singularities must somehow apply to every individual in them. But God seems to want a "people" (a group of people), and not just a single individual. Jesus wanted to build a "church", not just a bunch of individuals. Those individuals are supposed to love each other as they love their own bodies; they aren't to be separate, but spiritually conjoined. We will be resurrected as a single mass, as far as I can tell. God deals with His people as a group.

Is it really then that hard to imagine that He would select what His group would be like, foreknowing and predestinating the group to be a certain way without individually selecting the members of the group?

I wanted to include your response to [MENTION=81]themuzicman[/MENTION] for a comment or two:

Umm....

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved...Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Pet.3:10-11, 13).​

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest" (Heb.1:10-11).​

Quick question before we move on: Will the new earth be "earthy"?

So we are to believe that the Lord Jesus is now in the heavenly kingdom in a flesh and blood body, despite what we read here:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).​

Obviously so! That's where His disciples saw Him ascend to (At least with a body of some sort of flesh that the disciples could touch and that retained evidence of His crucifixion--I don't know of any verses that talk about Jesus' blood after His resurrection.) That seems to bother you greatly. Why so? Why can Jesus not have a body in heaven? What do you know about heaven that Jesus didn't know?

So if Jesus ascended bodily into heaven (which He did if we believe the scriptures), but without corruption, then perhaps your understanding of the verses above needs to be tweaked a bit. Themuzicman has offered a reasonable solution--that sin is the component that is removed, and with sin goes the corruption. Currently our bodies are experiencing the effects of sin--ongoing corruption, leading to death. I feel it every day, the older I get, and I long to be rid of such effects.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

I can see that you have great insight!



Since the LORD wants all men to come to the knowledge of Him and be saved then would He not bring every single man in line with Him? I agree that He has the power to do that but does he do it?

What do you think?

Thanks!

If He didnt allow free will all would be saved.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Well, I don't see Him right now, do you? If He's in heaven, where we can't see Him, then He's invisible to us.

Derf, there you go again! You continue to do your best in an effort to prove what Paul said here about eternal things is in error:

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor.4:18).​

Then in the very next verse he describes the body which we will put on at the rapture as being "eternal":

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor.5:1).​

But you say that we can see the eternal things like the bodies we will put on despite the fact that Paul says that eternal things cannot be seen.

As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. If you are not going to believe Paul then you sure will not believe me.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And if you read the end of revelation, you find a new heaven and a new earth (which can be translated renewed), which is the restoration of creation. If we don't end up back on this new or renewed earth, then God has failed.

So even though the present earth and the present heaven will melt and be burned up and perish you say that all those things will be restored to their state when they were first created:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved...Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Pet.3:10-11, 13).​

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest" (Heb.1:10-11).​

Does what is said here match the original creation?:

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there" (Rev.21:23-25).​

You have a vivid imagination but you seem unable to think outside the box.

Paul's use of "flesh and blood" refers to the sinful nature (similar to how he uses "flesh" in Romans.)

Beginning at 1 Corinthians 15:42 until verse 50 the subject is about the different types of bodies which Christians will be clothed upon. So if you are right then we must believe that our earthly bodies have a sinful nature.

Is that your argument? That sins are imputed to our bodies?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If He didnt allow free will all would be saved.

Yes, but all He would have then would be a bunch of robots incapable of love.

 

[Derf]

Derf, there you go again! You continue to do your best in an effort to prove what Paul said here about eternal things is in error:

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor.4:18).​

Then in the very next verse he describes the body which we will put on at the rapture as being "eternal":

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor.5:1).​

But you say that we can see the eternal things like the bodies we will put on despite the fact that Paul says that eternal things cannot be seen.

As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. If you are not going to believe Paul then you sure will not believe me.

Ah, Jerry. Your modesty overwhelms me.

Once more, Paul was not suggesting that nothing that is eternal is also visible, but that the things he was hoping for--things with lasting value, were not revealed. This is apparent if you read Chapter 4. Unless, of course, if you are so set in your interpretation that you aren't willing to accept anything else.

I'm not sure I want to drink your water.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'm not sure I want to drink your water.

You don't want to drink Paul's water either by saying that the eternal things can be seen despite what Paul says here:

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor.4:18).​

Let us look at this verse which describes the body we will be clothed upon in the future:

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual (pneumatikos) body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual (pneumatikos) body" (1 Cor.15:44).​

The Greek word pneumatikos means: "always connotes the ideas of invisibility and of power" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of new Testament Words).

Now you have another expert who you can deny.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Yes, but all He would have then would be a bunch of robots incapable of love.

Exactly.

One thing that I think that is extremely underappreciated in this whole equation is the immense difficulty in us laying down our pride. Not just in one decision at conversion. But a commitment to Christ to abandon ourselves to Him increasingly all the days of our lives. Not that we can make this turnaround on our own. Its impossible without the Cross and the loving conviction of the Holy Spirit, but our will is not forced. We must choose to embrace. And the struggle; the war is real. We have a powerful enemy. And the truth always will prevail; when He is embraced.

 

[Derf]

You don't want to drink Paul's water either by saying that the eternal things can be seen despite what Paul says here:

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor.4:18).​

Let us look at this verse which describes the body we will be clothed upon in the future:

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual (pneumatikos) body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual (pneumatikos) body" (1 Cor.15:44).​

The Greek word pneumatikos means: "always connotes the ideas of invisibility and of power" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of new Testament Words).

Now you have another expert who you can deny.

As I explained already, at least twice, Paul is not saying everything that is invisible is eternal or that everything that is eternal is invisible. What he is saying is that the things that are evident right now are not the things to be concerned about. It is especially evident in the passage you are quoting from that there is a BODY that will be RAISED. It will be different--for one thing it will not be corruptible, which means it will last forever. But it will still be a BODY. And a BODY is a physical thing. Job affirms that his resurrected body will have EYES. What do we use EYES for? For SEEING stuff. And if our BODY has EYES in the resurrection, then it will be because the EYES are useful for SEEING stuff in eternity. Like other BODIES, or the new EARTH.

Now, I hope you won't take the same verse and spit it back out as an argument against the other verses in the same section, but just in case you were thinking of doing so, I'm going to quote the passage here, with some of the statements bolded that indicate visible things Paul was talking about. Please feel free to argue with these verses, but use something new rather than the repeated reference that I believe I've discredited--not discredited what Paul was saying, but discredited what YOU think Paul was saying, or "your water" as I referred to it metaphorically. Your out-of-context interpretation of "Paul's water" is the "modesty" I referred to with tongue firmly planted in my cheek. (I really hate explaining my snide comments--they are much more entertaining if you get them yourself. )

[1Co 15:38-40, 42-45 NIV] 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. ... 42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Paul is specific about this--the very body that was buried ("sown") in death is raised. That body is the "it" that is bolded numerous times in the passage above. There's nothing else available for an antecedent. It is raised better than it was before, but it is still raised. It is raised "imperishable", meaning it is meant to last forever. Thus, when Jesus Christ was raised, never to die again, it was His flesh that was raised, not His Spirit.

And if His flesh was raised to new life, which was testified to by the apostles, who were allowed to touch and see His raised body to prove that it was physical, that body was not to be cast off when he entered heaven, because a cast-off body is a dead body, and if Jesus cast off His physical body, then Paul's promise of being clothed with imperishable garments would have no power:

[1Co 15:54 NIV] 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

There is no victory over death, if the body is not raised! That's the definition of "life" Paul lays down here.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Exactly.

One thing that I think that is extremely underappreciated in this whole equation is the immense difficulty in us laying down our pride. Not just in one decision at conversion. But a commitment to Christ to abandon ourselves to Him increasingly all the days of our lives. Not that we can make this turnaround on our own. Its impossible without the Cross and the loving conviction of the Holy Spirit, but our will is not forced. We must choose to embrace. And the struggle; the war is real. We have a powerful enemy. And the truth always will prevail; when He is embraced.

I agree with you completely. I have found that the most effective way to abandon myself to the Lord is this:

"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth"​

(Col.3:1-2).​

Thanks for your comments!