Original Sin, and its Essence

[Ktoyou]

This is a thread for understanding what is Original Sin. Is it real, did God punish all because of Adam's sin? What is the meaning? Was it a Catholic Church invention?

Post what you think on this topic.

I am willing to write on it if asked nicely; I don't care to make statements for anyone who does not wish to learn, but rather make the passing of knowledge into a silly contest.

Maybe AMR might be good enough to set us up on this topic?

 

[glorydaz]

This is a thread for understanding what is Original Sin. Is it real, did God punish all because of Adam's sin? What is the meaning? Was it a Catholic Church invention?

Post what you think on this topic.

I am willing to write on it if asked nicely; I don't care to make statements for anyone who does not wish to learn, but rather make the passing of knowledge into a silly contest.

Maybe AMR might be good enough to set us up on this topic?

The first sin is the "original sin", but I don't buy the claim that the guilt of Adam's sin is passed down to the rest of mankind. We all suffer the consequences of Adam's sin because of sin's effects on this world ie the curse. Sin entered the world.....not Adam's progeny.

Yes, I know....many will not agree...my friend, AMR, among them.

 

[Ktoyou]

The first sin is the "original sin", but I don't buy the claim that the guilt of Adam's sin is passed down to the rest of mankind. We all suffer the consequences of Adam's sin because of sin's effects on this world ie the curse. Sin entered the world.....not Adam's progeny.

Yes, I know....many will not agree...my friend, AMR, among them.

hear what YOU are saying and you are right in that God would not pass punishment unto the sons of a father.

Sin began with a desire to move away from God, and it was an angelic affair. The sin was not really disobedience, as for then, it was the will to be separate and like God in all ways, but separate was its movement.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Maybe AMR might be good enough to set us up on this topic?

Here you go:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...med-Theology&p=4559007&viewfull=1#post4559007

From my recent post in the chat box, too:

http://www.samstorms.com/enjoying-god-blog/post/10-things-you-should-know-about-original-sin

AMR

 

[Danoh]

This is a thread for understanding what is Original Sin. Is it real, did God punish all because of Adam's sin? What is the meaning? Was it a Catholic Church invention?

Post what you think on this topic.

I am willing to write on it if asked nicely; I don't care to make statements for anyone who does not wish to learn, but rather make the passing of knowledge into a silly contest.

Maybe AMR might be good enough to set us up on this topic?

Thing is, what are the rules of thumb one is looking at such things from?

Case in point, per Genesis 1-5, it's not that God punished all because of Adam.

Rather that every living thing that God created is said to be able to reproduce fruit AFTER ITS' kind.

I mean, that is a basic rule of thumb laid out and then touched on in those chapters, that must be considered.

Case in point - "a crack baby" (BORN addicted to crack) is the result of a profound biological change in its crack addicted parent (s).

Thing is, why is that even possible within one's biology?

I mean it's not like one's biology wilfully commited its' hosts' "sin."

Besides, anyone who rightly divides the word of truth would not conclude that was God's doing - not this side of Rom. 11:25's basic rule of thumb, anyway.

Rather, built into His command to "go forth, be FRUITful and multiply" was the power in man ("kind") to be able to reproduce "FRUIT AFTER his kind."

At the same time, that the reproductive system cannot only end up abnormal in some, but can often result in all sorts of abnormalities springing forth from the reproductive system of those able to reproduce, just goes to show that man has something inherently wrong in him, that can go wrong and often does, and as a result, can often result in one abnormality, or another, be it a physical one, a neurological one, and so on.

Thus, it is not that God punished all mankind for Adam's transgression.

In other words, as is the case in Romans 6, Romans 5 is also actually describing two, contesting baptisms or identifications.

One is either born into the one, or born anew into the Other.

Romans 5:6-8.

 

[Danoh]

hear what YOU are saying and you are right in that God would not pass punishment unto the sons of a father. ...

There are passages that appear to contradict that.

As in the account of the blind man Jesus heals in John 8, and other such passages in the OT.

Daniel 9's prayer on behalf of his nation (some 70 years after the accumulated sins of prior generations had ended them up under the coarse of punishment Daniel himself found himself under the coarse of with his people), also has a similar understanding in it.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Squeaky]

ORIGINAL SIN-SIN NATURE-PRIDE

Gen 3:1-5

1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?"
2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;
3 "but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
5 "For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
(NKJ)

NEW TESTAMENT
Original Sin
LAWS, RULES, ORDERS, COMMANDMENTS STRONG REQUESTS
[Rom 7:5-13
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."
8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all [manner of evil] desire. For apart from the law sin [was] dead.
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which [was] to [bring] life, I found to [bring] death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed [me].
12 Therefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.


Everyone has a rebellous spirit in them. That wants to rebel against authority, rules, laws , commandments, even a strong request from someone. Adam and Eve had that spirit. When God said dont eat of that fruit. We all have to deal with it. someone says dont do it, we then desire to do it. Someone says do it, we then desire to not do it. The original sin is pride.

 

[Ktoyou]

There are passages that appear to contradict that.

As in the account of the blind man Jesus heals in John 8, and other such passages in the OT.

Daniel 9's prayer on behalf of his nation (some 70 years after the accumulated sins of prior generations had ended them up under the coarse of punishment Daniel himself found himself under the coarse of with his people), also has a similar understanding in it.

Rom. 5:6-8.

Many think so, yet what Eve did was to become drawn away from God and eat upon the tree of knowledge, thus she know she would die someday.

Knowing we will someday die separates us from the animals who, despite having some intelligence, do not come to know they are mortal

 

[Ktoyou]

.... original sin is pride.

This is very true, pride is before disobedience and before the fall. Many point to pride as first cause, yet it is separation from God, which leads to pride.

 

[Ktoyou]

Here you go:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...med-Theology&p=4559007&viewfull=1#post4559007

From my recent post in the chat box, too:

http://www.samstorms.com/enjoying-god-blog/post/10-things-you-should-know-about-original-sin

AMR

We are born choosers and what we naturally choose is sin. This seems to be what you wrote in your past post. God did not condemn all of us to perdition, rather we have the ability to condemn ourselves

 

[Ktoyou]

Adam's posterity are under a curse. We live in a world of sin and we all die because of his rebellion. Not Fair? Every time you sin you give your "yea and AMEN" to what he did. We have such solidarity with Adam as fallen creatures that he federally represented us - such that what he did, counts as what we did. Likewise the last Adam, Jesus Christ, federally represents us so that what he did for us also counts as what we did. You cannot reject this doctrine for Adam but have it for Christ.

This seems to partly contradict. The most common notion is Adam sinned and because he did, we are all paying for it.

That is not correct, rather it is because we are like Adam and likely to scummed to the same sin, so, we inherit Adam's likeness, but not his punishment.

 

[Danoh]

Many think so, yet what Eve did was to become drawn away from God and eat upon the tree of knowledge, thus she know she would die someday.

Knowing we will someday die separates us from the animals who, despite having some intelligence, do not come to know they are mortal

I was referring to this part of what you wrote...

hear what YOU are saying and you are right in that God would not pass punishment unto the sons of a father. ...

There are passages that appear to contradict that.

As in the account of the blind man Jesus heals in John 8, and other such passages in the OT.

Daniel 9's prayer on behalf of his nation (some 70 years after the accumulated sins of prior generations had ended them up under the coarse of punishment Daniel himself found himself under the coarse of with his people), also has a similar understanding in it.

Case in point...

Note the existence of an understanding of that contrary to what you wrote and that He does not contradict it but merely states that such was not the case in the following...

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Here is the basis of that understanding...

Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Here it is in Daniel's Prayer...

Daniel 9:16 O LORD, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

Here it is again...

Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

And again...

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought; 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves. 19:47 And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him, 19:48 And could not find what they might do: for all the people were very attentive to hear him.

Apologies, if I failed to make that point clear.

Rom. 5:6-8

 

[Squeaky]

This is very true, pride is before disobedience and before the fall. Many point to pride as first cause, yet it is separations from God, which leads to pride.

I said
I see it as pride cause the separation. There had to be a motivation to separate.

 

[Ktoyou]

I said
I see it as pride cause the separation. There had to be a motivation to separate.

Good point Squeaky

 

[Ktoyou]

I was referring to this part of what you wrote...



There are passages that appear to contradict that.

As in the account of the blind man Jesus heals in John 8, and other such passages in the OT.

Daniel 9's prayer on behalf of his nation (some 70 years after the accumulated sins of prior generations had ended them up under the coarse of punishment Daniel himself found himself under the coarse of with his people), also has a similar understanding in it.

Case in point...

Note the existence of an understanding of that contrary to what you wrote and that He does not contradict it but merely states that such was not the case in the following...

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Here is the basis of that understanding...

Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Here it is in Daniel's Prayer...

Daniel 9:16 O LORD, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

Here it is again...

Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

And again...

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. 19:45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought; 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves. 19:47 And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him, 19:48 And could not find what they might do: for all the people were very attentive to hear him.

Apologies, if I failed to make that point clear.

Rom. 5:6-8

You made your point clear and your point seems shared by the majority of Christians.

My point is, God gave Adam the ability to choose, freewill, before he gained knowledge, and this freewill God did foresee as allowing man to choose God, or not, as Lucifer had chosen not to honour God.

This free will to choose not is what we inherited, so, their is some places in scripture where it appears the sin of Adam is visited on the sons (children) in Adam and Eve.

Considering that we all inherited the ability to reject God, then we all choose sin, unless saved by Grace.

Also, I believe the righteous of God would seem rather astray, had He punished all for the choice of one man, Adam.

Since this cannot be, it seems more true that God gave Adam a nature like the angels, to choose, and they do choose what seems best for them in the moment, thus neglecting the will of God.

God gave us the ability to choose in order we are able to choose God freely. Here lies the sin, which seems past on, it is sin caused by freewill. Only the gift of the Holy Spirit can direct us to always choose God, and until then all we have is faith and the ability to believe Jesus died to wash away our sins.

But what sins are these? They are original sin, to choose what seems in our own best interest. Jesus on the cross, gave us a way that we may choose Him and be saved by Grace.