Paul did not write Hebrews; we do not know who did

Hoping

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I haven't ignored anything. I haven't suggested that anyone ignore anything.
That is good to know, as I feel that all of the word of God applies to all men.
You knew that when you wrote this. You are therefore a liar.
I guess you could have perceived that as an accusation, but it wasn't meant that way.
It was more of a general observation, made to you.
So much for fools who claim sinless perfection.
Interesting take.
That's true of those in the Body of Christ. It was not true of those in the Kingdom, who were of Israel, who were of the Circumcision.
Correct, but the country if Israel in not the "Kingdom" of God.
It is the land of more unbelievers now.
Peter, James, Paul, John, Cornelius, Fortunatus, Asyncritus, etc. are now separate from the worldly definitions of "kingdom" thanks to the graceful mercy of God.
I didn't. God did. I'm simply reading what the bible says and applying it accordingly.

Galatians 2:6 As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message. 7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Peter and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.​
How much more explicit do you need it to be?
Does that mean I can't talk to Jewish folks about Jesus Christ because I am not Jewish?
No, as all unbelievers are in the same "boat".
And any man in Christ can teach any other man on earth.
It seems you see separation in the Gal. 2's, verses while I see assignment.
 

Clete

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That is good to know, as I feel that all of the word of God applies to all men.
Constantly mischaracterizing things is a form of lying, especially when you've been repeatedly corrected, which means that it's intentional.

I guess you could have perceived that as an accusation, but it wasn't meant that way.
Lair.

It was more of a general observation, made to you.
No it absolutely was not.

Interesting take.
You're such a fool. It's hard to even accept that you're even a Christian at all.

Correct, but the country if Israel in not the "Kingdom" of God.
Yes it was/is. It's capital city was Jerusalem, where the Twelve agreed with Paul that they would stay and minister to the Circumcision. When Christ returns He will reign from that capital city.

It is the land of more unbelievers now.
Irrelevant because God is not dealing directly with Israel at this time. RIGHT NOW there is no Jew or Gentile. But that doesn't mean that there didn't used to be nor that there won't be again.

Peter, James, Paul, John, Cornelius, Fortunatus, Asyncritus, etc. are now separate from the worldly definitions of "kingdom" thanks to the graceful mercy of God.
That's your doctrine but the bible says different.

Romans 11:29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.​
Does that mean I can't talk to Jewish folks about Jesus Christ because I am not Jewish?
I'm counting this as yet another lie. You knew the answer to this stupid question before you wrote it but you decided to write it anyway and not only pretend like its a real question but pretend like you are somehow unaware of the point of having asked it.

You're a liar, pure and simple. You're no more honest than David Koresh and have far less than he had to establish your doctrine.

No, as all unbelievers are in the same "boat".
What?

I swear its like talking to a five year old!

Change the subject much? What are you even talking about?

And any man in Christ can teach any other man on earth.
Yeah, no kidding. No one suggested otherwise.

It seems you see separation in the Gal. 2's, verses while I see assignment.
Who cares what you see?

The text is as clear as it can possibly be! It talks EXPLICITLY about two gospels for two different groups of people? One entrusted to the Twelve, he other to Paul. Your idiotic opinion doesn't come into it. If you "see" something different its because of your doctrine, not because of the text.



Don't bother responding. I won't read it. You're as dishonest as they come. I will not waste any more time on the likes of you.
 
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Idolater

"Lahey, I live in a tent!"
Temp Banned

The tweet is a Catholic priest (priests are assistants to the bishops in Catholicism /the Church, basically the Biblical deacons) with the same view and the same reasoning as @Nick M about the author of the book of Hebrews.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Priests are not bishops, right, good job, good for you, rolleyes.
The words pastor and bishop are synonymous with the word "shepherd".

Your religion has made up its' own definitions of words in order to make more layers to separate men from God.
 

Idolater

"Lahey, I live in a tent!"
Temp Banned
The words pastor and bishop are synonymous with the word "shepherd".

Your religion has made up its' own definitions of words in order to make more layers to separate men from God.
Nope. There's only one layer, same as it always was. Bishops are the only layer, and they are middle managers, the lot of them, to translate their office into modern terms. Even the pope is just a middle manager.

Priests are the bishops' assistants, this corresponds to the Biblical office of deacon. Priests can assist the bishop by celebrating all of the sacraments in his stead except for holy orders (priests can't make new bishops).

Martin Luther was a priest (for reference).

The Shepherd is Christ. He is not on Earth right now like He was 2000 years ago, but He did either institute or approve of the office of a bishop (cf. 1st Timothy 3:1 KJB) before He Ascended. They're primary job as shepherds is to feed the sheep. "Our daily bread" is the Eucharist.

The Eucharist is God. (The Real Presence.)

There is no separation between the Church and God when you go to Mass.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Nope. There's only one layer, same as it always was. Bishops are the only layer, and they are middle managers, the lot of them, to translate their office into modern terms. Even the pope is just a middle manager.
1Tim 2:5 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:5) For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Paul never followed a pope.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
John was/is one of the TWELVE Apostles that will sit on TWELVE thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL. The book of Revelation is all about ISRAEL and not the body of Christ.
Sorry you feel that way.
Answer me this, please...Was Jesus an Israelite?
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Nope. There's only one layer, same as it always was. Bishops are the only layer, and they are middle managers, the lot of them, to translate their office into modern terms. Even the pope is just a middle manager.

Priests are the bishops' assistants, this corresponds to the Biblical office of deacon. Priests can assist the bishop by celebrating all of the sacraments in his stead except for holy orders (priests can't make new bishops).

Martin Luther was a priest (for reference).

The Shepherd is Christ. He is not on Earth right now like He was 2000 years ago, but He did either institute or approve of the office of a bishop (cf. 1st Timothy 3:1 KJB) before He Ascended. They're primary job as shepherds is to feed the sheep. "Our daily bread" is the Eucharist.

The Eucharist is God. (The Real Presence.)

There is no separation between the Church and God when you go to Mass.
Catholicism is a false religion, and all its teachings are of the devil.
 

JudgeRightly

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Sorry you feel that way.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

Revelation is, in fact, prophecy regarding the nation of Israel, not the Body of Christ.

Answer me this, please...Was Jesus an Israelite?

Jesus was indeed a Jew. And His entire earthly ministry was directed at the Jews, and he avoided talking to Gentiles except for a few circumstances. That's entirely different than what He told Paul to do, or even His Twelve Apostles.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Facts don't care about your feelings.
Were the seven churches of Asia all or partially Jewish?
Most likely they were probably mostly, if not all, Gentile.
Either way, the letters of Revelation included Gentiles.
The "facts" show Gentiles included in the book of Revelations.
Revelation is, in fact, prophecy regarding the nation of Israel, not the Body of Christ.
It concerns everybody.
Jesus was indeed a Jew. And His entire earthly ministry was directed at the Jews, and he avoided talking to Gentiles except for a few circumstances. That's entirely different than what He told Paul to do, or even His Twelve Apostles.
If Jesus was a Jew, and we are "in Him", how do you figure we are not everything Jesus was/is?
I mean, really, we are called the body of Christ.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Every book that Paul wrote had "Paul" as the first word.
Rom 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
1Cor 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
2Cor 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy [our] brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
Gal 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Eph 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Phil 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Col 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus [our] brother,
1Thess 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Thess 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
1Tim 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, [which][ is] our hope;
2Tim 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
Titus 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Phlm 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy [our] brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer,
Heb 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Thirteen times Paul puts HIS name as the first word of his epistle and yet it's NOT there in the book to the HEBREWS.
2Thess 3:17 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:17) The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.

No, someone else wrote to the Hebrews.

P.S. Why would the apostle of the gentiles write a book to the HEBREWS?
The apostle to the Gentiles was constantly trying to convert Jews, so he might write a letter to the Hebrews, explaining what the Lord Jesus taught him about the types of Christ given in the Old Testament.

It could be that the salutation was stripped off the book, either by Paul or the carrier of the letter for unknown reasons. We actually don't know from the letter itself who it was written to--just from the title, which was no doubt added later. It could have been one of his earliest letters, before others faked letters from him, so he didn't feel the need to offer some kind of proof it was from him.
 

Right Divider

Body part
The apostle to the Gentiles was constantly trying to convert Jews, so he might write a letter to the Hebrews, explaining what the Lord Jesus taught him about the types of Christ given in the Old Testament.

It could be that the salutation was stripped off the book, either by Paul or the carrier of the letter for unknown reasons. We actually don't know from the letter itself who it was written to--just from the title, which was no doubt added later. It could have been one of his earliest letters, before others faked letters from him, so he didn't feel the need to offer some kind of proof it was from him.
Throughout the book to the Hebrews, the author speaks as one of those who is included in the contents and doctrines of the book (i.e., Israel under the law and a future salvation). That would exclude Paul and any other member of the body of Christ.

Heb 4:14 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:14) Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.

Never ONCE does Paul call Jesus "our great high priest" in ANY of his thirteen epistles.

Paul does call Jesus the "Lord Jesus Christ" SIXTY FIVE times in his thirteen epistles. That term is MISSING from the book to the Hebrews.

There are many, many more indicators like that throughout the book to the Hebrews.

I would also note that Paul and the twelve agreed to separate their ministries. The twelve would go to the circumcision and Paul to the heathen. So it is unlikely that Paul broke that agreement.

Gal 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:9) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
 
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JudgeRightly

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Were the seven churches of Asia all or partially Jewish?

Jesus, through John, wrote the letters in Revelation 2-3 to the sealed believers of the 12 Tribes of Israel.

The first portion of the book was written to Jewish believers at the time, but the rest of Revelation was written to a future generation, specifically of Israel.

Paul wrote His letter to the Colossians, and told them to greet their bretheren in Laodicea.

Jesus, on the other hand, through John, wrote specifically to the Laodicean church.

This subtle difference, along with the context of the book, and the rest of scripture, shows that the people being written to in these two chapters have their roots specifically in Israel, and that they are not Gentiles.

Most likely they were probably mostly, if not all, Gentile.

Wrong. The context of Acts, Paul's Epistles, specifically Galatians 2 (the agreement within which John did not violate even after Paul's death), and the whole of Revelation, shows that John was writing to Jewish Believers, not Gentiles.

Either way, the letters of Revelation included Gentiles.

So what?

The "facts" show Gentiles included in the book of Revelations.

So what?

It concerns everybody.

Everyone left on the earth after the rapture, yes. That includes Israel.

If Jesus was a Jew, and we are "in Him", how do you figure we are not everything Jesus was/is?

Because Paul is explicit: The Body of Christ is a new creature, an organism, not a corporate entity, a nation, like Israel is.

I mean, really, we are called the body of Christ.

Yes, the "BODY of Christ." Not "nation." Israel was a nation. The Body of Christ is an organism with many body parts.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Throughout the book to the Hebrews, the author speaks as one of those who is included in the contents and doctrines of the book (i.e., Israel under the law and a future salvation). That would exclude Paul and any other member of the body of Christ.

Heb 4:14 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:14) Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.

Never ONCE does Paul call Jesus "our great high priest" in ANY of his thirteen epistles.
Because he's writing those other epistles to Gentiles. He wouldn't want to refer to their high priests as a comparison, would he?
Paul does call Jesus the "Lord Jesus Christ" SIXTY FIVE times in his thirteen epistles. That term is MISSING from the book to the Hebrews.
In some, it's only used in the salutations. If the first page was ripped off, as I suggested, that term could have gotten lost. But he's also making the case for Jesus's lordship to the Hebrews, so he might have reason to avoid its use.
There are many, many more indicators like that throughout the book to the Hebrews.
Which are all worthy of consideration in this discussion.
I would also note that Paul and the twelve agreed to separate their ministries. The twelve would go to the circumcision and Paul to the heathen. So it is unlikely that Paul broke that agreement.

Gal 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:9) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
We've been over this. Paul was preaching to the Jews throughout his ministry. That agreement is not the abject dividing line you are trying to make it.
Acts 28:17 (KJV) And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men [and] brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

Acts 28:23 (KJV) And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.
 
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