Pro-Gays, is incest immoral?

[glassjester]

I'll answer. I have questions first.

I don't see why I should answer your questions, when I asked mine first.
Let's be fair.

Also, I do not see what this has to do with Scripture.



Ah, what the heck. I'll answer anyway!

1. Why are you comparing incest to homosexuality?
They are both perversions of sexual desire, the true purpose of which is to bring about offspring and maintain a bond between the parents or potential parents. I suspect that you cannot reasonably defend homosexuality, without allowing for incest.

2. Was incest immoral in the OT?
Yes. Which example, specifically, did you have in mind?

 

[annabenedetti]

I don't see why I should answer your questions, when I asked mine first.

Let's be fair.

There's nothing unfair about me asking. You're wanting a discussion, why balk when someone asks questions that will better define the parameters?

Also, I do not see what this has to do with Scripture.

For those arguing against homosexuality here, it has everything to do with scripture.

Ah, what the heck. I'll answer anyway!

1. Why are you comparing incest to homosexuality?
They are both perversions of sexual desire, the true purpose of which is to bring about offspring and maintain a bond between the parents or potential parents. I suspect that you cannot reasonably defend homosexuality, without allowing for incest.

Homosexuality, in our culture, is legal. Incest is not. (Although that brings my next question: how do you define incest? First cousins and closer? Blood only? Blood and marriage connections?) Because some cultures do allow for first cousins to marry. Do you consider that immoral, or just unwise?

My reasoning is based on legality. Yours is based on a definition of a perversion of sexual desire as defined by religion. So here's another question: Do you consider oral sex to be a perversion of sexual desire?

2. Was incest immoral in the OT?
Yes. Which example, specifically, did you have in mind?

Any of them. They're scattered through the OT, but I suppose you could go all the way back to Cain.

 

[glassjester]

My reasoning is based on legality.

Are you saying that anything legal is moral?

Slavery was legal. I'd say it was not moral. Even when it was legal.

So here's another question: Do you consider oral sex to be a perversion of sexual desire?

Yes, Ma'am!

Any of them. They're scattered through the OT, but I suppose you could go all the way back to Cain.

I don't know that Cain married an immediate relative, do you?
And if he did, I don't know that God was particularly happy about it.

You know, I've heard that Cain didn't always act morally...

 

[annabenedetti]

Are you saying that anything legal is moral?

No. But we're not talking about "anything," are we? We're talking about two specifics.

Yes, Ma'am!

Would you want to see oral sex legally proscribed?

Or would you just consider it a perversion, refrain from engaging it yourself, and not speculate on what other couples are doing in their bedrooms?

I don't know that Cain married an immediate relative, do you?
And if he did, I don't know that God was particularly happy about it.

Do you believe in the descent of the human line from Adam and Eve?



- Also, you forgot to define incest for the purposes of our discussion.

 

[serpentdove]

Glassjester , how the heck can you compare homosexuality to incest ? You're just rehashing the same old tired conservative theocratic excuses for demonizing gay people and denying them rights ...

God's calls your behavior an abomination.

Homosexuality is: forbidden (Lev. 18:22), considered an abomination (1 Kin. 14:24), punishment for (Lev. 20:13), unclean (Rom. 1:24, 26, 27). :vomit:

 

[glassjester]

No. But we're not talking about "anything," are we? We're talking about two specifics.

Ok... but you seem to be saying (I could be wrong) that incest is not moral because it is not legal. That, as an argument, doesn't make much sense.

Would you want to see oral sex legally proscribed?

Yes, Ma'am!

Do you believe in the descent of the human line from Adam and Eve?

Yes. I do believe that there were, at one time, only two individuals that could truly be considered "human," in the sense that they had rational faculties, and were true persons, in the image and likeness of God. And that these two original humans, being aware of themselves, and of right and wrong, willingly chose to do wrong.

What year they were born, or where they lived, I do not know.

Also, you forgot to define incest for the purposes of our discussion.

Immediate family. Direct descendants. Cousins. Uncles/Aunts.
Beyond that, any relationships that would cause damage to a family. Those would need to be judged on a case-by-case basis.

 

[annabenedetti]

Ok... but you seem to be saying (I could be wrong) that incest is not moral because it is not legal. That, as an argument, doesn't make much sense.

You were wrong.

Yes, Ma'am!

Okay, well then the discussion is pretty much over at this point. If you'd like to see oral sex made a criminal act, trying to come to any sort of mutual understanding on whether homosexual behavior can be made comparable to incestual behavior is really just a waste of both of our time.

Yes. I do believe that there were, at one time, only two individuals that could truly be considered "human," in the sense that they had rational faculties, and were true persons, in the image and likeness of God. And that these two original humans, being aware of themselves, and of right and wrong, willingly chose to do wrong.

If you do, then you have to know that you can't get from there to here without incest, and that was all part of God's design. I don't know how you can argue that one away.

What year they were born, or where they lived, I do not know.

Or perhaps you don't want to look too closely.

Immediate family. Direct descendants. Cousins. Uncles/Aunts.

Immediate family, direct descendants, that's a given. Cousins and similar, that's a little murkier. Consider that various cultures allow for it. Including, I think, royal families.

Beyond that, any relationships that would cause damage to a family. Those would need to be judged on a case-by-case basis.

So even murkier at that point. Not so black and white?

 

[glassjester]

Okay, well then the discussion is pretty much over at this point. If you'd like to see oral sex made a criminal act, trying to come to any sort of mutual understanding on whether homosexual behavior can be made comparable to incestual behavior is really just a waste of both of our time.

Why?

If you do, then you have to know that you can't get from there to here without incest, and that was all part of God's design. I don't know how you can argue that one away.

You'd have to argue for strict literal interpretation.
I do not support that view of Biblical interpretation, nor does Christ's one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church.

Besides, the Bible clearly claims that humans, from the start, have not exactly adhered to God's will for them.

Immediate family, direct descendants, that's a given. Cousins and similar, that's a little murkier. Consider that various cultures allow for it. Including, I think, royal families.

So even murkier at that point. Not so black and white?

So let's base the discussion on our point of agreement.
Sexual relationships with direct descendants and immediate family are incest.

1. Is incest, according to the above definition, immoral?
2. Should incestuous marriage be legal?

You have yet to answer either of the questions in the OP.

 

[quip]

Just can't bring yourself to answer?


Come on, be a sport.

No, O.k.

Do you think incest is immoral?

Yes, because the color blue tastes just awful.

Do you think incestuous marriage should be legal?

Well, duh ...is Trump's hair actually real?

 

[glassjester]

Well, duh ...is Trump's hair actually real?

What are you talking about?

 

[quip]

What are you talking about?

Martha Stewart's cooking...oh..and your OP! :idunno:

 

[glassjester]

Martha Stewart's cooking...oh..and your OP! :idunno:

Ok.

So do you think incestuous marriage should be legal?
Do you think incest is immoral?

 

[glassjester]

Still no direct responses.
Just avoidance.

 

[annabenedetti]

Still no direct responses.
Just avoidance.

I've been otherwise occupied for half a day, and will answer your post when I get back to my laptop. You might consider though, that I'm not the only one to see a hitch in your premise.

 

[annabenedetti]

Last thing first:

You have yet to answer either of the questions in the OP.

I know. This is a process.

Okay, well then the discussion is pretty much over at this point. If you'd like to see oral sex made a criminal act, trying to come to any sort of mutual understanding on whether homosexual behavior can be made comparable to incestual behavior is really just a waste of both of our time.

Why?

Because we won't get past the irrationality of you being in favor of criminalizing oral sex. I don't know about you, but I think it's a waste of time to argue something so crazy.

You'd have to argue for strict literal interpretation.

That's what you're doing.

I do not support that view of Biblical interpretation, nor does Christ's one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church.

You just said:

Yes. I do believe that there were, at one time, only two individuals that could truly be considered "human," in the sense that they had rational faculties, and were true persons, in the image and likeness of God.

That looks like a literal interpretation to me. I'm willing for you to clarify.

Besides, the Bible clearly claims that humans, from the start, have not exactly adhered to God's will for them.

Which has nothing to do with the point I'm making about getting from Adam and Eve to now being impossible without incest. So this really is an important part of the conversation, because in attempting to compare incest and homosexuality (which is the hitch in your premise) using a religious argument based on scripture, you have to deal with incest being allowed. You end up having to justify something that shouldn't be justified, and blaming humans for bad behavior isn't really an argument.

So let's base the discussion on our point of agreement.
Sexual relationships with direct descendants and immediate family are incest.

Okay. But the minute you change your definition, it will change my response. Because if I say that it's immoral for a father to have relations with his daughter and then you move to extend that to first cousins, then I'll respond accordingly. Fair?

BTW, your mention of a "case by case basis" means that you're aware it's not all black and white.

1. Is incest, according to the above definition, immoral?

I believe sexual relations between parents/grandparents/siblings are immoral, and I know they are illegal.

2. Should incestuous marriage be legal?

Marriage between parents/grandparents/siblings should not be legal. (That's your apple.)
Marriage between homosexuals is legal, and should remain that way. (That's your orange.)

 

[MrDante]

He will not answer, because this question proves the slippery slope is real.

Big words considering the only objection to incest you could come up with is the potential harm to offspring of such a relationship.

MrDante, in another thread, has shown this.
He has defended homosexuality.
He has now admitted to being pro-incest.

I would ask you to please stop lying but i can't imagine you would actually do so.

 

[annabenedetti]

I would ask you to please stop lying but i can't imagine you would actually do so.

It's par for the course around here.

 

[MrDante]

The invitation stands.

Can any pro-gay folks explain if and why incest is immoral, or if and why they support incestuous marriage?

I asked you this and received a barrage of insults in return until you eventually came up with potential problem with children of such a union. You then removed the possibility of children form the equation and tried tossing it back at me.

So answer your own question already.

 

[MrDante]

Ryan White disagrees with those who say faggotry does not harm anybody else.

If you want to talk about harm...
Ryan White spent as much time fighting the hate and ignorance of those who wanted to claim AIDS as some kind of divine retribution against gays than he did fighting the virus itself.

"The school I was going to said they had no guidelines for a person with AIDS. The school board, my teachers, and my principal voted to keep me out of the classroom even after the guidelines were set by the I.S.B.H., for fear of someone getting AIDS from me by casual contact. Rumors of sneezing, kissing, tears, sweat, and saliva spreading AIDS caused people to panic.

We began a series of court battles for nine months, while I was attending classes by telephone. Eventually, I won the right to attend school, but the prejudice was still there. Listening to medical facts was not enough. People wanted one hundred percent guarantees. There are no one hundred percent guarantees in life, but concessions were made by Mom and me to help ease the fear. We decided to meet them halfway:

Separate restrooms
No gym
Separate drinking fountains
Disposable eating utensils and trays
Even though we knew AIDS was not spread through casual contact. Nevertheless, parents of twenty students started their own school. They were still not convinced. Because of the lack of education on AIDS, discrimination, fear, panic, and lies surrounded me:

I became the target of Ryan White jokes
Lies about me biting people
Spitting on vegetables and cookies
Urinating on bathroom walls
Some restaurants threw away my dishes
My school locker was vandalized inside and folders were marked FAG and other obscenities
I was labeled a troublemaker, my mom an unfit mother, and I was not welcome anywhere. People would get up and leave so they would not have to sit anywhere near me. Even at church, people would not shake my hand."

Ryan White's Testimony before the President's Commission on AIDS

 

[The Horn]

I don't approve of incest ,bestiality, pedophilia , necrophilia etc. But as far as I am concerned, if it is two gays having consensual sex in private, it is not , cannot and must not be considered a crime of any kind . Or even a misdemeanor.
Some gays have died of AIDS? Yes. But every year in America, far more people die from respiratory diseases caused by smoking , die from alcoholism or accidents caused by intoxication etc , drunk driving ,
from unhealthy diet and using dangerous illegal drugs such as cocaine and heroin etc than from AIDS .
Quite a few people who are straight die from unsafe heterosexual sex, too .Gay sex is NOT harmful in and of itself . UNSAFE sex is the deadly thing, whether you are straight, gay or bisexual.
Countless gay people, male and female have lived to ripe old ages despite being gay . This is a fact . Today, more heterosexual people die from AIDS related illnesses every year than gay people
all over the world. The AIDS virus could not care less whether you are gay, straight or bisexual.