ECT R.C. Sproul: Dispensationalism Brought Us The ‘Carnal Christian'.
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oatmeal
Well-known member
Really?
That different rules and policies have been in place over time is abundantly clear.
God's plan for man's redemption and salvation required that He have a plan, a plan with different phases in it.
Carnality has been a reality beginning with the fall of man and woman.
Carnality is the fall of man and woman.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
All 'Christians' are carnal to one degree or another, as we all still live in a fallen body.
Interplanner
Well-known member
The OT may look that way, but we are cautioned not to view it 'kata sarka' (in the ordinary sense; according to the flesh), 2 Cor 5. It always was about Christ and those who had faith in him. Judaism replaced the promise with the law (Gal 3:17) trying to make people think it was about their race and works. It never was. It came through them, but that does not mean there ever was an alternate program. The NT never sounds like there was. It even says the law is part of the 'weak and miserable elements of the world.' Gal 4, Col 2.
Interplanner
Well-known member
I did listen to the highlighted section and have never heard that criticism of D'ism. It's not really an area that matters to organizing (or finding the organization of) the Bible.
Yep.
Else why even the need for reminders like the following?
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Thank God then, for Romans 5: 6-8.
Now that is exactly how one discusses those things - completely absent of a Bible in hand.
NOT!
Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Rom. 5: 6-8.
andyc
New member
Which is why RC Sproul was talking about how regeneration is supposed to have an impact on carnal man, which is neglected by dispensationalist teaching.
andyc
New member
Which is different to being completely carnal while professing faith in Christ, as Sproul explains.
andyc
New member
Regeneration is critical.
andyc
New member
Sproul was simply talking about how the removal of the moral law, removes conviction of sin, which in turn removes the need to be converted. Scripture references can be supplied, but I'm sure you're already familiar with them.
That is an absolute lie - on their books based ignorant part, and on yours in your own failure to do your homework before allowing yourself to conclude on what others teach about it.
Case in point that yours is am outright lie - any of the following four studies...
1- Shall We Continue In Sin That Grace May Abound?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IM8KmnXAhY&app=desktop
2- Why Do I Fail If There Is Victory In Christ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZhiZGjjm7Y&app=desktop
3- THE NEW YOU!! - Now This is Really Living!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=018l90DJ6rI&app=desktop
4- How Can I Live A Victorious Christian Life?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-uNINDZukU&app=desktop
And that is just a few studies of the many on this issue and only by one of the many who regularly teach on it.
Rom. 5: 6-8.
andyc
New member
You've misunderstood the point of sproul. He is talking about regeneration as a result of coming under conviction of sin. The knowledge of sin comes from the law. All your listed studies are to do with sanctification post salvation.
You really ought to pay attention to the subject, and not keep jumping to wrong conclusions.
drbrumley
Well-known member
And Sproul is full of it...be that as it may.
andyc
New member
Sproul is only pointing out the inevitable danger of removing the law completely. He's approaching it from a covenant theology perspective.
Nope.
He was talking about the sanctification you both erroneously believe the regeneration is supposed to automatically bear the fruit of.
If that were the case, Scripture would not be constantly calling for that fruit.
Also, within all groups on TOL, your kind are ever all the same. You post a link wanting others to read and or hear out its content, only to reject reading and and or hearing out the other side's.
Only to turn around and lecture about the need to pay attention - you're amusing; I'll give ya that much. :chuckle:
Rom. 5: 6-8.
andyc
New member
Sorry for getting back to this after a while, but I've been stuck with year end reports, metrics, reviews and on and on.
Been reading through this thread again, and it's not gone in the direction I'd hoped, and it's probably my fault.
So, RC Sproul is a Calvinist and a Covenentalist, and his criticism is not against hyper dispensationalism, but Darbyism. In other words, he would regard fellow ministers like John Macarthur as brothers, but disagree with their dispensationalist stand.
And so this thread was aimed more at people here who are aware of the dangers of dispensationalism, and where it leads (like MAD).
The point is that, if people regard the law as completely removed, how can sinners be convicted of sin before God?
This would lead to a false sense of security if a heart has not been regenerated. This, according to Sproul, gives birth to a carnal believer. Someone who's been persuaded mentally, but has not had a deep conviction of sin, and not realised the need of Christ as savior in their heart. Similar to Simon the sorcerer who believed and was baptised, but there was no inner regeneration.
Been reading through this thread again, and it's not gone in the direction I'd hoped, and it's probably my fault.
So, RC Sproul is a Calvinist and a Covenentalist, and his criticism is not against hyper dispensationalism, but Darbyism. In other words, he would regard fellow ministers like John Macarthur as brothers, but disagree with their dispensationalist stand.
And so this thread was aimed more at people here who are aware of the dangers of dispensationalism, and where it leads (like MAD).
The point is that, if people regard the law as completely removed, how can sinners be convicted of sin before God?
This would lead to a false sense of security if a heart has not been regenerated. This, according to Sproul, gives birth to a carnal believer. Someone who's been persuaded mentally, but has not had a deep conviction of sin, and not realised the need of Christ as savior in their heart. Similar to Simon the sorcerer who believed and was baptised, but there was no inner regeneration.
Hi and in Titus 3:5 is a dispensational word , REGENERATION / PALIGGENESIA means RENEWAL , RECREATION , OR RESTORATION !!
What does the Greek word GENESIA mean ?
dan p
Obviously, the following is not clear to you.
Which IS a Dispensational issue.
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
That right there is speaking of two systems that DIFFER from one another: Law and Grace.
It is obvious from passages that one is based on that under the Law sin had dominion over one.
That to look to the Law in an attempt to stop sin can only result in sin's dominion over one.
Some passages that one is based on are passages like the following...
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
The Law had been meant to set off "sin, that it might appear sin..."
What you are doing is attempting to solve for a problem only you are perceiving - because your study approach, when attempting to properly understand these issues, is off.
These issues are not understood by watching theologians sitting arounding attempting to impress one another with how "books based" "spiritual Israel" smart they all supposedly are.
Rather, they are solved by getting in, and staying in the Scripture, until It yields IT's Answers.
Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Case in point - what the Scripture itself says on these things...
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
You are not rightly dividing the Scripture as to the things that differ between these things...
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Result?
Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Solution, then; if the Law is not the answer?
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
THAT IS what Romans 6 thru 8 ARE based on - NOT on the Law.
For, no, we are not left without A law.
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
What then?
Our teacher is NOW Grace itself.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
The Grace of God toward us in His Son is BOTH our teacher AND our motivator now.
As we focus on "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."
In short, as we focus on Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.
In other words - in memory of Him - of His Grace toward us - what He did on that Croos - in each our stead - as we do that it results in a zealousness for good works.
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
Thus, when you find Believers talking about the Grace of God this, and the Grace of God that, whose grace towards others is anything but - that is not a result of what such as Sproul and his kind are ever ignorantly going on about.
It is instead, the result of a Believer who either does not understand the above, or has rationalized their own desires over the above perspective for so long, that they are no longer reachable as to the above.
In memory of Romans 5: 6-8, Andy - in each our stead.
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/zeal-without-knowledge/
https://www.ligonier.org/blog/undervaluing-pentecost/
Check.
And RC would tell you, fruitcake candyandycain, an emotional wreck, that you are not one of "the elect," so you cannot understand scripture anyways.
Checkmate.
EOT. RIP. DOA. CLOSED.
https://www.ligonier.org/blog/undervaluing-pentecost/
Check.
And RC would tell you, fruitcake candyandycain, an emotional wreck, that you are not one of "the elect," so you cannot understand scripture anyways.
Checkmate.
EOT. RIP. DOA. CLOSED.