REPORT: Coming Out of the Closet - By Bob Enyart

[anna]

Anna - unfortunately, i have seen more christians harrassing gays out of christianity than nonchristians. One of the things I don't quite understand.

I was remembering when I first starting questioning christianity, and some of it's main tennents - Jesus dying for our sins, virgin birth, etc. Around the same time, in the mid 80s, churches began disallowing gays to worship in their churches. While I don't see homosexuality as a sin, I was confused why heterosexuals who had premarital sex were allowed to freely come to the church, but gays were not.

Fortunately, churches formed, like MCC, that had the attitude that we are all god's children, and that no one can decide what does or does not make you a christian except believing in god.

Personally, I've come to understand that god is much more complicated than people want to believe, and by reading about other religions, have come to a better understanding of what I believe.

Beanie Boy,
Since I became a Christan, I began to understand things that make very little sence to others. My thoughts and desires changed. While I do sin, I do it LESS than I did before.. not because I am better than anyone (I may think I am at times but that is a lie).
I am better off than most people(I am going to Heaven and I have a full life). Whatever good that is in me is the Lord, the rest is my flesh. And because I remain imperfect, I must depend on the Lord to help me overcome my sins so that I can be a better testimony of His grace. God knows I am not perfect (He knew it before I did) so he not only sent His son to die for my sins, but He also gave me the truth (the Bible) so that I can know for myself what is good and what is evil. Hyprocates are everywhere. Would you refuse to buy food if the owner of the store was a hyprocrate? No..because you need the food to live.
Same principle here. I am not talking "religion" or "denomination" because that stuff is man made. It's man's way of trying to get to Heaven. There is only one way. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life and nobody can get to the Father except by me. Don't let your feelings keep you from the Lord. He wants YOU!
ac

 

[beanieboy]

Anna - while I hear what you are saying, in using your example, it is as if you say, "The only food that can sustain you is Spam." And I believe there are a lot of options, and it is all sustaining, ie., there are many ways up the mountain.

When Christ says, "no one comes to the Father but by me," I believe that to mean, "no one come to the Father unless they are humble, etc., - christlike."

Needing to have a Savior who dies for your sins is a major thing I question.

Personally, from looking at many other religions, I think each is right in it's own way. The Jewish faith, for example, has a wonderful sense of tradition and family within their synagogues, and do not evangelize, and even discourage people from becoming Jewish, so that only those who truly want to become Jewish do it for the right reasons. I have read about Hinduism, and how they celebrate death, rather than fear it. And on and on. I think all of them have some truth to them, and I keep my heart open to it all, and pray about it. I tell god to lead me the right way, and often, it is away from the tradition which i was brought up in. Even watching something as cheesy as Crossing Over has taught me something. John Edward described about the way he received messages in the form of personal reference. So, for food, he may get a traditional Italian family gathering. For someone else, it may be a totally different image, but the point still gets across. For apple, you may think red, teacher, pie, tree, William Tell, but the point gets across by using your individual point of reference.

And that is kind of how I see god communicating.

 

[Projill]

Yes, I'm very prejudice against SIN, thank you very much for the compliment.

So you have no desire to keep up with the Joneses, you never lie, you've never had an impure thought, etc. ? Wow. You're more Christ-like than Jesus. If you're prejudice against sin, you're prejudice against yourself, huh?

 

[anna]

Anna - while I hear what you are saying, in using your example, it is as if you say, "The only food that can sustain you is Spam." And I believe there are a lot of options, and it is all sustaining, ie., there are many ways up the mountain.

When Christ says, "no one comes to the Father but by me," I believe that to mean, "no one come to the Father unless they are humble, etc., - christlike."

Needing to have a Savior who dies for your sins is a major thing I question.

Personally, from looking at many other religions, I think each is right in it's own way. The Jewish faith, for example, has a wonderful sense of tradition and family within their synagogues, and do not evangelize, and even discourage people from becoming Jewish, so that only those who truly want to become Jewish do it for the right reasons. I have read about Hinduism, and how they celebrate death, rather than fear it. And on and on. I think all of them have some truth to them, and I keep my heart open to it all, and pray about it. I tell god to lead me the right way, and often, it is away from the tradition which i was brought up in. Even watching something as cheesy as Crossing Over has taught me something. John Edward described about the way he received messages in the form of personal reference. So, for food, he may get a traditional Italian family gathering. For someone else, it may be a totally different image, but the point still gets across. For apple, you may think red, teacher, pie, tree, William Tell, but the point gets across by using your individual point of reference.

And that is kind of how I see god communicating.

Beanie boy,
I understand and I think it is good to ask questions and observe different view points before coming to a decision. I just wanted to clarify for you that John 14:6 is not asking you to clean your self up and then face God. That's impossible because nobody can keep all of the Lords commandments. Try to look at it this way. The IRS sends you a bill that you can't pay and there is nobody who could pay it except one man. He says to you"here take this money so that you can pay the bill" What do you do? Do you graciously receive the gift or do you insult the man by ignoring him. If you ignore him, you face the consequences since there is no way you can pay. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of eternal life is thru Jesus Christ. On one hand you have pride which precedes destruction and on the other you have the acceptance of a gift freely given by the Lord.
ac

 

[beanieboy]

Taxes aren't quite the right example. I would put it more like this. You steal something. You are sentenced to death. A innocent bystander says, "I want to step in for you, and let them kill me, and you can go free."

Would you do it? Would you let someone else take the fall?

I see Jesus as a whipping boy, and that's always bothered me. If God is angry for something I did, I want to take full responsibility for it, not hide behind someone else, and have them take the fall. I can forgive people. God should be able to do at least as good as I can.

Jesus was forgiving sins before he died. I question if God would require such a barbaric act to appease him.

 

[Antipas]

Hey Beannie..

Hey Beannie..

Would you do it? Would you let someone else take the fall?

Beannie, I agree with you. My theology doesn't present Christ as a "whipping" boy. His death was not a substitution at all. Besides if his death was a substitutional death then where was the payment because Christ *didn't* die.

I see Jesus as a whipping boy, and that's always bothered me. If God is angry for something I did, I want to take full responsibility for it, not hide behind someone else, and have them take the fall.

Absolutely!!!

Jesus was forgiving sins before he died. I question if God would require such a barbaric act to appease him.

God didn't require such a barbaric act. Jesus' death and resurrection "declared" the righteousness of God. Jesus basically showed us they way "to God" by living a life of perfect obedience. Since he did NOT sin, he was not owed a death becuase as stated in scripture "the wages of sin is death". Therefore he was raised and glorified. His death/resurrection was simply a means to our salvation. We are to follow his example. His death was not a substitution but more "representative". Of course we can't live a life as perfect as Christ which is why we are under God's grace.

Peace,
Antipas

 

[Barbiedoll]

So you have no desire to keep up with the Joneses, you never lie, you've never had an impure thought, etc. ? Wow. You're more Christ-like than Jesus. If you're prejudice against sin, you're prejudice against yourself, huh?

The only person who ever lived on this earth that was perfect was Jesus Christ. When you become a Christian, you are against sin. You take a stand for righteousness. The apostles and the disciples in the Bible were not perfect either, but they told people about their sin.

You see, Christians are concerned about where people are going to spend eternity. They want everyone to enjoy the blessed life here on earth that they enjoy, and also to enjoy the wonderful heaven that Jesus has prepared for us.

 

[anna]

Taxes aren't quite the right example. I would put it more like this. You steal something. You are sentenced to death. A innocent bystander says, "I want to step in for you, and let them kill me, and you can go free."

Would you do it? Would you let someone else take the fall?

I see Jesus as a whipping boy, and that's always bothered me. If God is angry for something I did, I want to take full responsibility for it, not hide behind someone else, and have them take the fall. I can forgive people. God should be able to do at least as good as I can.

Jesus was forgiving sins before he died. I question if God would require such a barbaric act to appease him.

Beanie Boy,
So what you are telling me is that you want to go to Hell? Yes Jesus was forgiving sins before he died AND he also died for you. Why? To pay the penalty for sin. The last words Jesus said was "it is finished" which means "paid in full." It doesn't seem fair to you that God would require such a barbarous act to be appeased. Do you know why he gave us the law? If you read the Book of Romans you will find that the law was given to teach us . "For the law was our schoolmaster..." When I was younger, my father used to spank me. Why? To teach me what is right and what is wrong because he loved me. Like a good father, God chastens those that he loves. Mabye you didn't have a good father. Perhaps this is why you have a hard time understanding the Father.
God wants to forgive you (set you free from) for your sins.. All you have to do is swallow your pride. Now be honest.. would you die for a man who hates you- a man who curses you and those you love dearly? God has "done at least as good as you have" in fact, he has done what NO man woman or child could or would do. I know this is hard to swallow. There are things in the Bible that I struggle with, but know this. The Lord is loving and just. He wants all of us to have a close relationship with Him.
ac

 

[Projill]

You know, I have found more proof that Oz exists than heaven.

 

[missedmarks]

Funny how we get so angry, how we are so ready to rally around the flag, to stomp out the sin of homosexuality. When is the last time you saw a lengthy thread against the evils of cohabitation. Or a blazing, invictive against the love of money.

Yes, homosexuality is a sin. It is wrong, the bible clearly says so. It does not however, place homosexuality in a special class of sin deserving a special dose of our attention. Sin is Sin. Yet we don't get too upset by fornication or adultry (Cmon, everyone does it) or Idolotry, or any other number of sins.

This is one of the places where it is hard to be a Christian. If Christ were here today (It probably happened while he was here the last time) He would probably be criticized by religious leaders for hanging out with homos. He would rebuke them for their sin, but he would love them, just as he loved the tax collectors, drunkards and prostitutes. Just as he loves you and me.

On the flip side we still have to take a stand. We cannot waffle under the pressure of the world and admit it is allright. So we are stuck in an unenviable possition. Forced by our faith to love the unloveable, and at the same time go against the grain of what the world says.

Bottom line as with everything I will ever post here. It comes down to love and Grace. God has forgiven me of all the rotten things i've done. I am bound to not judge anyone else. It's cliche but I have to love the sinner, hate the sin.


On a lighter note. While two guys kissing is gross. Two guys having a whiny argument about commitment and where their relationship is going is just so pathetic It will make me dry heave for days. Thats why I can't suffer through 'Will and Grace'

 

[Barbiedoll]

You know, I have found more proof that Oz exists than heaven.

Well, its for sure that one day we will all find out. If I'm wrong, what have I lost? I've lost nothing. If you're wrong, what have you lost? Your soul.

 

[Zakath]

Well, its for sure that one day we will all find out. If I'm wrong, what have I lost? I've lost nothing. If you're wrong, what have you lost? Your soul.

Now Barbiedoll, you wouldn't be taking advantage of PJ's youth and inexperience by trying to avoid her point when you trotted out Pascal's Wager, would you?

 

[Amazing_Grace]

Missedmarks, your post was well-said. I have often wondered why so much emphasis is placed on this particular sin, and realize the importance of loving everyone in spite of what they may be doing wrong, since we are ALL doing wrong.

It is God's place to judge, not mine.

 

[beanieboy]

Well, its for sure that one day we will all find out. If I'm wrong, what have I lost? I've lost nothing. If you're wrong, what have you lost? Your soul.

"Everybody's waiting for the Judgement Day,
So they can say, 'Told you so."

Depeche Mode

 

[beanieboy]

Funny how we get so angry, how we are so ready to rally around the flag, to stomp out the sin of homosexuality. When is the last time you saw a lengthy thread against the evils of cohabitation. Or a blazing, invictive against the love of money.

Yes, homosexuality is a sin. It is wrong, the bible clearly says so. It does not however, place homosexuality in a special class of sin deserving a special dose of our attention. Sin is Sin. Yet we don't get too upset by fornication or adultry (Cmon, everyone does it) or Idolotry, or any other number of sins.

This is one of the places where it is hard to be a Christian. If Christ were here today (It probably happened while he was here the last time) He would probably be criticized by religious leaders for hanging out with homos. He would rebuke them for their sin, but he would love them, just as he loved the tax collectors, drunkards and prostitutes. Just as he loves you and me.

On the flip side we still have to take a stand. We cannot waffle under the pressure of the world and admit it is allright. So we are stuck in an unenviable possition. Forced by our faith to love the unloveable, and at the same time go against the grain of what the world says.

Bottom line as with everything I will ever post here. It comes down to love and Grace. God has forgiven me of all the rotten things i've done. I am bound to not judge anyone else. It's cliche but I have to love the sinner, hate the sin.


On a lighter note. While two guys kissing is gross. Two guys having a whiny argument about commitment and where their relationship is going is just so pathetic It will make me dry heave for days. Thats why I can't suffer through 'Will and Grace'

That's the LIGHTER NOTE?

I don't know if two guys have ever had a discussion about commitment on Will and Grace ever. Jack doesn't date for longer than a week, and Will rarely dates. Most of the "whiny arguments about commitment" are from Grace, and the heterosexual men, who generally have commitment issues. Yeah, it is a little pathetic.

 

[Projill]

Well, its for sure that one day we will all find out. If I'm wrong, what have I lost? I've lost nothing. If you're wrong, what have you lost? Your soul.

I'll risk it.

Pascal's Wager has been used a time or two on me in my life, Barbie.

 

[Projill]

On a lighter note. While two guys kissing is gross. Two guys having a whiny argument about commitment and where their relationship is going is just so pathetic It will make me dry heave for days. Thats why I can't suffer through 'Will and Grace'

Mer? I'll echo Beanieboy by saying that the whining is generally out of Grace...not the two gay men. Jack is incapable of commitment, the status of Will's love life is pathetic but he doesn't whine about it a lot, and Karen...Karen's Karen. She's a goddess incarnate.

Breakdown of "Queer As Folk" when it comes to "committment": the lesbians are getting married, Brian and Justin are in a relationship but it's an open relationship, Emmett's rapidly becoming a star, Ted's single, Michael recently broke up with the doctor and temporarily dated a college professor, Debbie's fabulous, Justin's mom is divorced (still wealthy though), and Debbie's brother is currently not dating.

If you want a "whiny argument about commitment and where the relationship is going", watch a lesbian show.

 

[Barbiedoll]

I'll risk it.

Pascal's Wager has been used a time or two on me in my life, Barbie.

The choice is yours. I am thoroughly convinced there is a heaven and a hell. Its your life, its your soul, and its your choice.

 

[Projill]

The choice is yours. I am thoroughly convinced there is a heaven and a hell. Its your life, its your soul, and its your choice.

Works for me. I'm thoroughly convinced that there isn't.

That reminds me, I have to start a thread in "general theology". I hope you come over and give me your two cents.

 

[missedmarks]

See, I told you guys I don't watch Will and Grace

Speaking of Lesbians. You don't see us Christians quite so up in arms about them do you

I've never heared anyone condem all those girls who do a little Bi curious stint in college

(For those born without a sense of Humor.....I was joking throughout the extent of this entire post...please don't kill me