REPORT: The Death Penalty Debate - By Bob Enyart

Untouchable

New member
Fair enough Crow.
Personally, I see very little difference between taking a man's life by electric chair, and taking it by locking him behind bars until he dies.
It just helps the jury sleep easier at night knowing that they technically didn't decide to "kill" him.
 

wholearmor

New member
Originally posted by Untouchable
Fair enough Crow.
Personally, I see very little difference between taking a man's life by electric chair, and taking it by locking him behind bars until he dies.
It just helps the jury sleep easier at night knowing that they technically didn't decide to "kill" him.

This isn't about what you want, it's about what God wants.
 

Crow

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Originally posted by Untouchable
Fair enough Crow.
Personally, I see very little difference between taking a man's life by electric chair, and taking it by locking him behind bars until he dies.
It just helps the jury sleep easier at night knowing that they technically didn't decide to "kill" him.

I see a difference in that it is contrary to God's teachings on how we are to carry out criminal justice. God does not instruct us to have a life penalty. I think that the confusion arises when prisons are mentioned in the N.T.--people forget that Roman law was in effect, hence prisons and crucifixions, which were not a part of God's criminal justice system.
 
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Freak

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Originally posted by Em7add11
Better, yes.

But as to whether he completely throws out the old law I would say consider what Jesus follows that original paragraph with.

Consider Paul words of instruction:

But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.


So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.


I grant without question that Jesus establishes a new covenant with us. However, I wouldn't say He's eased the rules at all,

Do you still keep any of the ceremonial laws?
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Crow
I see a difference in that it is contrary to God's teachings on how we are instructed to carry out criminal justice. God does not instruct us to have a life penalty. I think that the confusion arises when prisons are mentioned in the N.T.--people forget that Roman law was in effect, hence prisons and crucifixions, which were not a part of God's criminal justice system.

What would you recommend we do to those who assault people?
 

Untouchable

New member
I don't know whether or not Bob actually believes what he said in his post what he says about Jesus condoning the death penalty for rebellious children and the like, but I do take issue with that.

My parents and I always had a good relationship.
However, we did get in the occasional spat. On one occasion one of my parents provoked me to wrath in a hateful, undeserving tirade and attack. After being cut deeply over and over again by their hateful words, I "cursed" at them. I had handled myself very well until then, so I was really ashamed of myself for losing my cool.
I really regretted having said that, because it seemed to be just the reaction my parent was looking for.

We apologized the next day, and our relationship moved on.
Are you saying I committed a capital offense that night?

I just can't see a right minded parent ever wanting to have their children killed (with the exception of perhaps violent crimes), whether they were rebellious or not.

I know that almost everyone on this board has had their time of rebellion, or broken relationships with parents.

As a Christian, you've been forgiven much. Would you risk being the servant that owed 4.5 billion dollars, and had his debt pardoned, yet after his release he turned on a debtor that owed him the equivalent of a couple of hundred bucks and had him thrown into debtors prison?

I really believe that there is some truth in "An eye for an eye, and the whole world would be blind."
 

Untouchable

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Crow,
I wasn't saying that a life sentence is "as good as" the death penalty. I was saying I could view it as a dishonest (with yourself)attempt to get around actually taking someones life.
 

Crow

New member
Originally posted by Freak
What would you recommend we do to those who assault people?

I recommend we do whatever God tells us to, Freak. It's tough, because sometimes God tells us to do things that our human fallable minds are too weak to accept easily. God specified different things in cases of assault, from restitution to mutilation, and I would have to go back and look, but I believe in some cases it may call for death--the individual penalties for assault are an area in which I am weak, and thank you for bringing this to my attention.

I believe it is a really terrible idea for humans to try to outdo or "correct" God. I wouldn't have the guts to let people in my own family go to hell for rejecting God, yet this is going to happen. God has a lot more guts than I do--I either trust him for the tough stuff he has told me as I trusted him for salvation, or he's only my "halfway" God of parts of my life.
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Crow
I recommend we do whatever God tells us to, Freak.

What would that be?

... but I believe in some cases it may call for death--the individual penalties for assault are an area in which I am weak, and thank you for bringing this to my attention.

What about verbal assualt?

I believe it is a really terrible idea for humans to try to outdo or "correct" God. I wouldn't have the guts to let people in my own family go to hell for rejecting God, yet this is going to happen. God has a lot more guts than I do--I either trust him for the tough stuff he has told me as I trusted him for salvation, or he's only my "halfway" God of parts of my life.
Who's outdoing God? :think:
 

Crow

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Originally posted by Freak
What would that be?



What about verbal assualt?

Verbal assault--are you refering to the part about cursing your parents or blasphemy? What God says stands. He commanded death. Would I have the strength to carry this out? No. I'll flat out tell you that I don't have the strength and determination that God does, anymore than I would have the guts to strike someone dead when they promised something to Him, then reniged. I wouldn't have the guts to kill people for for a lot of stuff. Does that mean because I am weak and a coward in some areas that God is wrong? No--it means I have a long way to go. It is my responsibility to bring myself in line with the mind of God, not vice versa.

Who's outdoing God? :think:
 

Freak

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Crow says:

Verbal assault--are you refering to the part about cursing your parents or blasphemy? What God says stands. He commanded death. Would I have the strength to carry this out? No.

Every kid in the world would have been put to death then.
 

Freak

New member
Crow, God called for the following to be put to death:

-male who was not circumcised: Genesis 17:14
-Eating leavened bread during the Feast of Unleavened Bread: -Exodus 12:15
-Manufacturing anointing oil: Exodus 30:33
-Engaging in ritual animal sacrifices other than at the temple: -Leviticus 17:1-9
-Consuming blood: Leviticus 17:10
-Eating peace offerings while ritually unclean: Leviticus 7:20
-Waiting too long before consuming sacrifices: Leviticus 19:5-8
-Sexual activity with a woman who is menstruating: Leviticus 20:18
- Going to the temple in an unclean state: Numbers 19:13
-Persons teaching another religion: Deuteronomy 13:1-11
-A prophet whose prophecy does not come true: Deuteronomy 18:22
-Gluttony and excessive drinking: Deuteronomy 21:20

Gluttony is another one...who in America hasn't committed this sin?
 

Crow

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Originally posted by Freak
The Bible must be understood correctly though. :rolleyes:

That is true. If it were, there would be no need for Christians to debate as we do. I don't see difference of opinion as a salvation issue for Christians. What I do see is that salvation through grace issues and criminal law issues tend to get tangled into a Gorgon's knot along with symbolic vs criminal law issues.
 

Untouchable

New member
"The bible has to be understood correctly though"

Right. It's a hard thing to do.


People always use the verse that jesus didn't come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it to say all the laws they consider to be convenient or good to still stand.
But what does fulfill mean? Didn't the Bible say that none of it would pass away until it had been fulfilled? Didn't Jesus come to fulfill it?
 

Freak

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Originally posted by Crow
That is true. If it were, there would be no need for Christians to debate as we do. I don't see difference of opinion as a salvation issue for Christians. What I do see is that salvation through grace issues and criminal law issues tend to get tangled into a Gorgon's knot along with symbolic vs criminal law issues.

What I'm getting at is this----we're all guilty of sin. We are unrighteous. All of us deserve hell and death but there is a thing called grace.
 

Crow

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Originally posted by Freak
Crow, God called for the following to be put to death:

-male who was not circumcised: Genesis 17:14
-Eating leavened bread during the Feast of Unleavened Bread: -Exodus 12:15
-Manufacturing anointing oil: Exodus 30:33
-Engaging in ritual animal sacrifices other than at the temple: -Leviticus 17:1-9
-Consuming blood: Leviticus 17:10
-Eating peace offerings while ritually unclean: Leviticus 7:20
-Waiting too long before consuming sacrifices: Leviticus 19:5-8
-Sexual activity with a woman who is menstruating: Leviticus 20:18
- Going to the temple in an unclean state: Numbers 19:13
-Persons teaching another religion: Deuteronomy 13:1-11
-A prophet whose prophecy does not come true: Deuteronomy 18:22
-Gluttony and excessive drinking: Deuteronomy 21:20

I know this. These are symbolic laws, not criminal laws. These do not deal with one person's crime against another. Peter was told to eat unclean animals by God to show that the symbolic law had passed, and Paul preached that circumcision and baptism were unnecessary, also parts of the symbolic law. Just as wearing a garment of mixed fibers, such as 50/50 cotton-polyester would be forbidden under the symbolic law, but OK for a Christian. Neither Peter not Paul said that the criminal penalties for criminal activities were abolished.

[/QUOTE]Gluttony is another one...who in America hasn't committed this sin? [/QUOTE]

Everyone has.
 
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Freak

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Originally posted by Untouchable
"The bible has to be understood correctly though"

Right. It's a hard thing to do.

Not really. Start looking at the Old Covenant through the superior covenant--the New Covenant-and watch yourself be liberated.
 
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