ECT Rethinking Eschatology

[themuzicman]

I've been pondering the various eschatologies and the problems with each, and thinking about the relevant texts that we associate with them. and I'd like to propose an idea to discuss:

Scripture actually speaks about two escatologies, one for the Old Covenant (prophesied in the Old Testament, and possibly during Jesus' life), and one for the New Covenant, which is spoken of in the New Testament.

So, the major Old Covenant Eschatologies are Daniel 9 and Joel 2:28-32.

Daniel 9 speaks of 70 sevens being allocated before judgment.

Joel 2 speaks of tongues and prophecy and visions and dreams ahead of the destruction of a kingdom, and people having to escape. Peter speaks of Pentecost being the initiation of the Joel 2 prophecy.

Jesus also speaks of the destruction of the temple in Matthew 24.

These would seem to comprise the escaton, the end, of the Old Covenant.


We then have the escaton of the New Covenant, which is obviously resurrection to judgment, but also the "man of sin."

And then there is Revelation, which would appear to be eschaton for the New Covenant, given the ending.


I think this at least begins to unravel the confusion of making all eschaton prophecies about one end time, as it seems there is a fairly clear distinction between Israel's eschaton, and that of the world as we know it.

Thoughts?

 

[patrick jane]

I've been pondering the various eschatologies and the problems with each, and thinking about the relevant texts that we associate with them. and I'd like to propose an idea to discuss:

Scripture actually speaks about two escatologies, one for the Old Covenant (prophesied in the Old Testament, and possibly during Jesus' life), and one for the New Covenant, which is spoken of in the New Testament.

So, the major Old Covenant Eschatologies are Daniel 9 and Joel 2:28-32.

Daniel 9 speaks of 70 sevens being allocated before judgment.

Joel 2 speaks of tongues and prophecy and visions and dreams ahead of the destruction of a kingdom, and people having to escape. Peter speaks of Pentecost being the initiation of the Joel 2 prophecy.

Jesus also speaks of the destruction of the temple in Matthew 24.

These would seem to comprise the escaton, the end, of the Old Covenant.


We then have the escaton of the New Covenant, which is obviously resurrection to judgment, but also the "man of sin."

And then there is Revelation, which would appear to be eschaton for the New Covenant, given the ending.


I think this at least begins to unravel the confusion of making all eschaton prophecies about one end time, as it seems there is a fairly clear distinction between Israel's eschaton, and that of the world as we know it.

Thoughts?

are you saying that some eschatologies are for different endings ? for instance that some have ended and some are in progress ?

 

[Interplanner]

I've been pondering the various eschatologies and the problems with each, and thinking about the relevant texts that we associate with them. and I'd like to propose an idea to discuss:

Scripture actually speaks about two escatologies, one for the Old Covenant (prophesied in the Old Testament, and possibly during Jesus' life), and one for the New Covenant, which is spoken of in the New Testament.

So, the major Old Covenant Eschatologies are Daniel 9 and Joel 2:28-32.

Daniel 9 speaks of 70 sevens being allocated before judgment.

Joel 2 speaks of tongues and prophecy and visions and dreams ahead of the destruction of a kingdom, and people having to escape. Peter speaks of Pentecost being the initiation of the Joel 2 prophecy.

Jesus also speaks of the destruction of the temple in Matthew 24.

These would seem to comprise the escaton, the end, of the Old Covenant.


We then have the escaton of the New Covenant, which is obviously resurrection to judgment, but also the "man of sin."

And then there is Revelation, which would appear to be eschaton for the New Covenant, given the ending.


I think this at least begins to unravel the confusion of making all eschaton prophecies about one end time, as it seems there is a fairly clear distinction between Israel's eschaton, and that of the world as we know it.

Thoughts?

It sounds like some of my basic eschatological principles are sinking in!

If the 1st century Judean material is mixed with the worldwide judgement of God, there will be nothing but confusion.

Check what you are saying about Acts 2 again. The outpouring of the Spirit is a happy occasion in all OT visions, but the terrifying things he mentions there are about judgement upon Israel if they don't recieve the work of the Spirit.

Also to sharpen your belief about the 'man of sin.' This is the person first mentioned in Dan 8:13 (a rebellion must have a leader...), and the phrase turns into an incident or object, the AofD. It happens in the 490 years. When Paul spoke in the Thess material, he was already saying the wrath of God was upon Israel (Mt23 validates that), and that this person would soon be seen in the temple doing what Judaism always said was 'claiming to be god'--he would say he was messiah. Actually 3 figures did during the Jewish war; 1 defeated the other three. Paul saw the end of the world very soon, with a cataclysm taking place in Israel and then the worldwide judgement of God 'right after' without delay. However, Mark and Matthew allow for delay and there indeed has been, hasn't there? 2 Pet 3 explains the delay.

If you look back a bit, you'll see threads for all 10 basic principles. And one that just lists the 10 together.

 

[Interplanner]

I've been pondering the various eschatologies and the problems with each, and thinking about the relevant texts that we associate with them. and I'd like to propose an idea to discuss:

Scripture actually speaks about two escatologies, one for the Old Covenant (prophesied in the Old Testament, and possibly during Jesus' life), and one for the New Covenant, which is spoken of in the New Testament.

So, the major Old Covenant Eschatologies are Daniel 9 and Joel 2:28-32.

Daniel 9 speaks of 70 sevens being allocated before judgment.

Joel 2 speaks of tongues and prophecy and visions and dreams ahead of the destruction of a kingdom, and people having to escape. Peter speaks of Pentecost being the initiation of the Joel 2 prophecy.

Jesus also speaks of the destruction of the temple in Matthew 24.

These would seem to comprise the escaton, the end, of the Old Covenant.


We then have the escaton of the New Covenant, which is obviously resurrection to judgment, but also the "man of sin."

And then there is Revelation, which would appear to be eschaton for the New Covenant, given the ending.


I think this at least begins to unravel the confusion of making all eschaton prophecies about one end time, as it seems there is a fairly clear distinction between Israel's eschaton, and that of the world as we know it.

Thoughts?

btw, the priests of the 1st century were trained to see Dan 9 as happening in their time. Caiaphas says so in Jn 12, 18. Josephus, who was in the Jewish war and abandoned the Jewish side, refers to Dan 8 and 9 about what was happening, and that the nation would be ruined.

 

[themuzicman]

are you saying that some eschatologies are for different endings ? for instance that some have ended and some are in progress ?

Old Covenant: Ended.

New Covenant: In progress.

 

[themuzicman]

Check what you are saying about Acts 2 again. The outpouring of the Spirit is a happy occasion in all OT visions, but the terrifying things he mentions there are about judgement upon Israel if they don't recieve the work of the Spirit.

Joel 2 doesn't speak of a "happy" event. There are signs, ending of a kingdom, and a need to escape.

Also to sharpen your belief about the 'man of sin.' This is the person first mentioned in Dan 8:13 (a rebellion must have a leader...), and the phrase turns into an incident or object, the AofD. It happens in the 490 years.

I don't see a basis for connecting Daniel 8 to 1 Thess. They appear to be speaking to two different covenants.

 

[steko]

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

 

[genuineoriginal]

I've been pondering the various eschatologies and the problems with each, and thinking about the relevant texts that we associate with them. and I'd like to propose an idea to discuss:

Scripture actually speaks about two escatologies, one for the Old Covenant (prophesied in the Old Testament, and possibly during Jesus' life), and one for the New Covenant, which is spoken of in the New Testament.

So, the major Old Covenant Eschatologies are Daniel 9 and Joel 2:28-32.

Daniel 9 speaks of 70 sevens being allocated before judgment.

Joel 2 speaks of tongues and prophecy and visions and dreams ahead of the destruction of a kingdom, and people having to escape. Peter speaks of Pentecost being the initiation of the Joel 2 prophecy.

Jesus also speaks of the destruction of the temple in Matthew 24.

These would seem to comprise the escaton, the end, of the Old Covenant.


We then have the escaton of the New Covenant, which is obviously resurrection to judgment, but also the "man of sin."

And then there is Revelation, which would appear to be eschaton for the New Covenant, given the ending.


I think this at least begins to unravel the confusion of making all eschaton prophecies about one end time, as it seems there is a fairly clear distinction between Israel's eschaton, and that of the world as we know it.

Thoughts?

The destruction of the temple in 70CE was not the end of God's plan for the children of Israel.
It was the beginning of their greatest time of tribulation.

 

[Buzzword]

I like this concept.

It was recently pointed out to me that too many Christians basically read the Bible backwards, inflicting our current mode of thought (which is the culmination of Greco-Roman and Enlightenment philosophy) onto texts which predate them by millennia.

We do it with the writings of Paul and the apostles, we do it with the words of Jesus, and we do it with the Hebrew Bible.

If we actually read the Hebrew Bible forwards, given that its writers did not know about Jesus or really anything which would happen after each of their own lifetimes, a preterist reading of the eschatology in Daniel makes the most sense, assuming one is trying to read it literally.

Daniel was raised in the Old Covenant, and at his point in history the covenant seemed more fragile than it had ever been before.

So it follows that, being a Hebrew who kept faith in God, he would write a vision of a great enemy stampeding across the world (as Babylon did over its little plot of land that to it was "the known world") and a final victory for Israel which results in the final resolution of God's covenant with Abraham, in order to keep his people's hopes and faith alive until their eventual liberation and return home.

 

[chrysostom]

to understand the apocalypse
you must start with daniel
and
his four beasts
can you identify them?
the last two are the two beasts of the apocalypse

then you look for the thousand years

 

[chrysostom]

you must assume
the writer of the apocalypse
knows about daniel
so
the ten horns are a given

 

[Tambora]

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Right.

 

[Interplanner]

Joel 2 doesn't speak of a "happy" event. There are signs, ending of a kingdom, and a need to escape.



I don't see a basis for connecting Daniel 8 to 1 Thess. They appear to be speaking to two different covenants.

Happy: Acts 2:39. 3:19. 3:26.


The event and period Daniel was speaking of spans the two ages. The covenant that Messiah brings (end of Dan 9) is the new one.

 

[Interplanner]

The destruction of the temple in 70CE was not the end of God's plan for the children of Israel.
It was the beginning of their greatest time of tribulation.

It was Judaism that thought that the promise to all nations was replaced by an arrangement exclusively with Israel. Gal 3:17. This needed to be corrected, by Paul. The generation of Christ's time was supposed to be missionaries (like Paul) not fight for their freedom and religion led by zealots. Most of them chose the latter. Lk 21 says it was the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that was written.

 

[Interplanner]

I like this concept.

It was recently pointed out to me that too many Christians basically read the Bible backwards, inflicting our current mode of thought (which is the culmination of Greco-Roman and Enlightenment philosophy) onto texts which predate them by millennia.

We do it with the writings of Paul and the apostles, we do it with the words of Jesus, and we do it with the Hebrew Bible.

If we actually read the Hebrew Bible forwards, given that its writers did not know about Jesus or really anything which would happen after each of their own lifetimes, a preterist reading of the eschatology in Daniel makes the most sense, assuming one is trying to read it literally.

Daniel was raised in the Old Covenant, and at his point in history the covenant seemed more fragile than it had ever been before.

So it follows that, being a Hebrew who kept faith in God, he would write a vision of a great enemy stampeding across the world (as Babylon did over its little plot of land that to it was "the known world") and a final victory for Israel which results in the final resolution of God's covenant with Abraham, in order to keep his people's hopes and faith alive until their eventual liberation and return home.

You backtracked well, but you don't realize what Dan 9 is doing. It is the prayer about what will become of Israel. The answer is not that great for Israel as such. But it is great for Israel through Messiah who is the figure coming--and suffering--and his 6 accomplishments there and the new covenant.

Remember, 9A is a prayer; 9B is the answer of the Messiah. Unfortunately, a horrible, rebellious figure ruins Israel just as Messiah and his followers go forward with what God wants.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You backtracked well, but you don't realize what Dan 9 is doing. It is the prayer about what will become of Israel. The answer is not that great for Israel as such. But it is great for Israel through Messiah who is the figure coming--and suffering--and his 6 accomplishments there and the new covenant.

Remember, 9A is a prayer; 9B is the answer of the Messiah. Unfortunately, a horrible, rebellious figure ruins Israel just as Messiah and his followers go forward with what God wants.

There are no 6 Messianic accomplishments mentioned in Daniel 9.
There are 6 conditions that the children of Israel must meet in order to remain in the land after the 490 year period granted to them.

 

[Interplanner]

There are no 6 Messianic accomplishments mentioned in Daniel 9.
There are 6 conditions that the children of Israel must meet in order to remain in the land after the 490 year period granted to them.

He finishes transgression (in a certain sense)
puts an end to sin (same)
atones for wickedness (Daniel's real question v19)
brings in everlasting righteousness (the imputed righteousness of Christ)
seals up vision and prophecy (in the sense of confirm, fulfill)
anoints the most holy (of the true temple).

If you think those are 6 conditions on Israel, we are really in trouble, because the lack of knowledge of Christ in the OT is worse than I thought.

Whatever God has promised to the fathers he has fulfilled by raising Christ from the dead, Acts 13's sermon's punchline.

 

[genuineoriginal]

He finishes transgression (in a certain sense)
puts an end to sin (same)
atones for wickedness (Daniel's real question v19)
brings in everlasting righteousness (the imputed righteousness of Christ)
seals up vision and prophecy (in the sense of confirm, fulfill)
anoints the most holy (of the true temple).

You are trying to claim that Jesus did what the children of Israel would not do.
If that is true, then there was no need for the destruction of the temple and the exile of the children of Israel from the land during the great tribulation.

If you think those are 6 conditions on Israel, we are really in trouble,

Yes, we have been watching the children of Israel go through the great tribulation for over 1900 years and us Christians have learned nothing from it.

because the lack of knowledge of Christ in the OT is worse than I thought.

Actually, it is the ignorance of the Christians about God's dealing with the children of Israel that is the problem.

Whatever God has promised to the fathers he has fulfilled by raising Christ from the dead, Acts 13's sermon's punchline.

The six conditions that the children of Israel had to fulfill during the 490 years were not promises.

 

[Interplanner]

You are trying to claim that Jesus did what the children of Israel would not do.
If that is true, then there was no need for the destruction of the temple and the exile of the children of Israel from the land during the great tribulation.


Yes, we have been watching the children of Israel go through the great tribulation for over 1900 years and us Christians have learned nothing from it.


Actually, it is the ignorance of the Christians about God's dealing with the children of Israel that is the problem.


The six conditions that the children of Israel had to fulfill during the 490 years were not promises.

Exactly. It's why our faith is called Christian. It is about what God did in Christ, even what God did on behalf of Israel, Rom 15:7+

 

[Interplanner]

You are trying to claim that Jesus did what the children of Israel would not do.
If that is true, then there was no need for the destruction of the temple and the exile of the children of Israel from the land during the great tribulation.


Yes, we have been watching the children of Israel go through the great tribulation for over 1900 years and us Christians have learned nothing from it.


Actually, it is the ignorance of the Christians about God's dealing with the children of Israel that is the problem.


The six conditions that the children of Israel had to fulfill during the 490 years were not promises.

Your belief that these past two millenia are the great tribulation is unique and wrongheaded.

The 6 things were not things Israel had to do, or could do. ONly God can atone, only God can bring in everlasting righteousness.