Sorting out often used expressions

[oatmeal]

In order to effectually discuss a subject we must define our terms. If we choose to discuss the various breeds of dogs and their strong points and weak points, we must agree that we are talking about dogs, domestic dogs. To have a worthwhile discussion, we must not let our discussion include coyotes, wolves, or any other wild canines because our discussion is about domestic dogs. Of course, to gain background, we might deepen our analysis by understanding that dogs are domesticated wild canines and that man has bred these wild canines to meet certain expectations, but we would prefer to not go off on tangents. We must center our discussion on our chosen subject. That is, the strong and weak points of various domestic breeds of dogs.

Likewise, with discussions regarding the truth of God's word. We must center our focus on what God has given to us in scripture. Other subjects such as Biblical culture, figures of speech and the study of the grammar of the ancient Biblical languages will enhance the depth of our learning, but we must keep our focus on scripture as the anchor of our discussion.

So, what about phrases, often used that are not quotable from scripture?

For instance, the "sovereignty of God" or "God is in control" Can we actually support those phrases from scripture?

In my learning, I have disagreed with both. However, as I stated above, that is dependent on the definitions we use to describe those phrases.

What does "God is sovereign" mean?

From Jason Lisle's book, Introduction to Logic, his definition of sovereign makes perfect sense to me. "Having supreme power or authority and not required to answer to any higher authority" God, in this sense, is indeed, sovereign.

Any discussion on this is welcome.

Looking now to the idea that "God is in control", I find that to be too vague to be useful

Control of what? How much control?

God gave us free will to make decisions both good and bad. God is not in control of our free will, for if He did, it would not be free will. Note: free will does not include the power to successfully achieve whatever we decide, it is in reference only to be able to decide. For instance, we might decide, like Lucifer, that we should usurp God's throne and sovereignty and make it our own. Both Lucifer and Adam and Eve, and all sinners have done that, with various degrees of cataclysmic results.

In what sense does God control? Did God control Lucifer to force Lucifer to make the decision to attempt to usurp God's throne? No, God did not control Lucider into making that decision. That was Lucifer's choice and his choice only.

Why is there evil in this world? Is it because God forced it into this world because God is in control? Absolutely not. God is good always, we are taught to overcome evil with good, we expect God operates by the same truth.

Evil entered this world because of the poor choices by those who rejected God either knowingly or ignorantly.

God is light and in him is no darkness at all. I John 1:5.

What are are your thoughts?

 

[ttruscott]

For instance, we might decide, like Lucifer, that we should usurp God's throne and sovereignty and make it our own. Both Lucifer and Adam and Eve, and all sinners have done that, with various degrees of cataclysmic results.

My first premise:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Every one, every sinner on earth knows the truth but as the rest of the chapter says, they suppress the truth for love for sin: verse 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie...

My second premise is that no one who knew they could not create anything, ie, who knew they were not GOD, would try to take over the throne of the ONE who was proven to be GOD. To fight to usurp the creator from HIS place one had to know who HE was and that HE had a throne!

What kind of non-divine person thinks he is GOD's equal? That he is the creator himself and YHWH is not? Only someone who is absolutely insane or someone who is completely caught up in sinful delusions.

So my conclusion is that those given over to the delusion of their superiority over YHWH is real must have sinned into insane delusion before they saw the proof of HIS Divinity and eternal power which all saw by witnessing that which was made, the creation of the physical universe.

In other words, they rebelled BY THEIR FREE WILL against HIS unproven claims to be our sovereign LORD by faith, that is, by an unproven hope that they were indeed as perfect as HE was and that by raising HIMself in HIS claims to be their creator and therefore their superior, HE was lying and as a liar, a false god.

WE have one hint that such a claim that YHWH was our creator GOD and our only saviour from sin was made to every person ever created in Col 1:23...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
The verb has been proclaimed is S2784 kērýssō, properly - to herald (proclaim); to preach (announce) a message publicly and with conviction (persuasion).

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
Col 1:23. which ye have heard … which was preached to every creature … whereof I … am … a minister—By "was preached," he means not merely "is being preached," BUT HAS BEEN ACTUALLY, AS AN ACCOMPLISHED FACT, PREACHED. " This pov is because the tense of the verb apparently means to be finished fully in time past then repeated often in the future. So we have here a finished proclamation to every creature under heaven. Would this mean anything if 95% of all creatures were NOT created yet? Wouldn't mean a thing would it? This only has importance if every creature under heaven means every creature ever created under GOD's authority.

Ellicott in his Commentary for English Readers declares the verb to have been proclaimed claims universality but since he does not adhere to such a pov, he lets his theology dictate what the word actually means to him:
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
Every creature which is under heaven.—Comp. our Lord’s command, “Preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15). In idea and capacity the gospel is literally universal; although in actual reality such universality can only be claimed by a natural hyperbole.

Thus I contend that the fall of all sinners came before any saw the proof of HIS Divinity and eternal power, and after the proof was given, all sinners, including those who put their faith in YHWH's being a liar and a fase god, were flung into Sheol in the earth, Rev 12:4-9. They were not trying to take GOD's place unless they were insane, but they were rejecting HIM as a liar, a sin which has the power to make them criminally insane.

Evil entered this world because of the poor choices by those who rejected God either knowingly or ignorantly.

God is light and in him is no darkness at all. I John 1:5.

YES...

Why is there evil in this world? Is because God forced it into this world because God is in control.

NO,
there is evil here because this planet is a Prison Planet designed to contain both the criminally insane who can't be cured because they love sin more than the truth, ie, the reprobate demons, but with a rehab centre in it to cure those who can be cured, ie, HIS sheep gone astray into sin, HIS sinful, good, elect, seed.

 

[oatmeal]

My first premise:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Every one, every sinner on earth knows the truth but as the rest of the chapter says, they suppress the truth for love for sin: verse 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie...

My second premise is that no one who knew they could not create anything, ie, who knew they were not GOD, would try to take over the throne of the ONE who was proven to be GOD. To fight to usurp the creator from HIS place one had to know who HE was and that HE had a throne!

What kind of non-divine person thinks he is GOD's equal? That he is the creator himself and YHWH is not? Only someone who is absolutely insane or someone who is completely caught up in sinful delusions.

So my conclusion is that those given over to the delusion of their superiority over YHWH is real must have sinned into insane delusion before they saw the proof of HIS Divinity and eternal power which all saw by witnessing that which was made, the creation of the physical universe.

In other words, they rebelled BY THEIR FREE WILL against HIS unproven claims to be our sovereign LORD by faith, that is, by an unproven hope that they were indeed as perfect as HE was and that by raising HIMself in HIS claims to be their creator and therefore their superior, HE was lying and as a liar, a false god.

WE have one hint that such a claim that YHWH was our creator GOD and our only saviour from sin was made to every person ever created in Col 1:23...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
The verb has been proclaimed is S2784 kērýssō, properly - to herald (proclaim); to preach (announce) a message publicly and with conviction (persuasion).

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
Col 1:23. which ye have heard … which was preached to every creature … whereof I … am … a minister—By "was preached," he means not merely "is being preached," BUT HAS BEEN ACTUALLY, AS AN ACCOMPLISHED FACT, PREACHED. " This pov is because the tense of the verb apparently means to be finished fully in time past then repeated often in the future. So we have here a finished proclamation to every creature under heaven. Would this mean anything if 95% of all creatures were NOT created yet? Wouldn't mean a thing would it? This only has importance if every creature under heaven means every creature ever created under GOD's authority.

Ellicott in his Commentary for English Readers declares the verb to have been proclaimed claims universality but since he does not adhere to such a pov, he lets his theology dictate what the word actually means to him:
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
Every creature which is under heaven.—Comp. our Lord’s command, “Preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15). In idea and capacity the gospel is literally universal; although in actual reality such universality can only be claimed by a natural hyperbole.

Thus I contend that the fall of all sinners came before any saw the proof of HIS Divinity and eternal power, and after the proof was given, all sinners, including those who put their faith in YHWH's being a liar and a fase god, were flung into Sheol in the earth, Rev 12:4-9. They were not trying to take GOD's place unless they were insane, but they were rejecting HIM as a liar, a sin which has the power to make them criminally insane.


YES...


NO,
there is evil here because this planet is a Prison Planet designed to contain both the criminally insane who can't be cured because they love sin more than the truth, ie, the reprobate demons, but with a rehab centre in it to cure those who can be cured, ie, HIS sheep gone astray into sin, HIS sinful, good, elect, seed.

My apologies for a typo that went unnoticed. I have since corrected it. What was originally a statement should have been a question.

oatmeal said:
Why is there evil in this world? Is because God forced it into this world because God is in control.

I have corrected my words to "Why is there evil in this world? Is it because God forced it into this world because God is in control?

Thus I think we are in agreement instead of disagreement.

 

[oatmeal]

My first premise:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Every one, every sinner on earth knows the truth but as the rest of the chapter says, they suppress the truth for love for sin: verse 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie...

My second premise is that no one who knew they could not create anything, ie, who knew they were not GOD, would try to take over the throne of the ONE who was proven to be GOD. To fight to usurp the creator from HIS place one had to know who HE was and that HE had a throne!

What kind of non-divine person thinks he is GOD's equal? That he is the creator himself and YHWH is not? Only someone who is absolutely insane or someone who is completely caught up in sinful delusions.

So my conclusion is that those given over to the delusion of their superiority over YHWH is real must have sinned into insane delusion before they saw the proof of HIS Divinity and eternal power which all saw by witnessing that which was made, the creation of the physical universe.

In other words, they rebelled BY THEIR FREE WILL against HIS unproven claims to be our sovereign LORD by faith, that is, by an unproven hope that they were indeed as perfect as HE was and that by raising HIMself in HIS claims to be their creator and therefore their superior, HE was lying and as a liar, a false god.

WE have one hint that such a claim that YHWH was our creator GOD and our only saviour from sin was made to every person ever created in Col 1:23...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
The verb has been proclaimed is S2784 kērýssō, properly - to herald (proclaim); to preach (announce) a message publicly and with conviction (persuasion).

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
Col 1:23. which ye have heard … which was preached to every creature … whereof I … am … a minister—By "was preached," he means not merely "is being preached," BUT HAS BEEN ACTUALLY, AS AN ACCOMPLISHED FACT, PREACHED. " This pov is because the tense of the verb apparently means to be finished fully in time past then repeated often in the future. So we have here a finished proclamation to every creature under heaven. Would this mean anything if 95% of all creatures were NOT created yet? Wouldn't mean a thing would it? This only has importance if every creature under heaven means every creature ever created under GOD's authority.

Ellicott in his Commentary for English Readers declares the verb to have been proclaimed claims universality but since he does not adhere to such a pov, he lets his theology dictate what the word actually means to him:
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
Every creature which is under heaven.—Comp. our Lord’s command, “Preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15). In idea and capacity the gospel is literally universal; although in actual reality such universality can only be claimed by a natural hyperbole.

Thus I contend that the fall of all sinners came before any saw the proof of HIS Divinity and eternal power, and after the proof was given, all sinners, including those who put their faith in YHWH's being a liar and a fase god, were flung into Sheol in the earth, Rev 12:4-9. They were not trying to take GOD's place unless they were insane, but they were rejecting HIM as a liar, a sin which has the power to make them criminally insane.


YES...


NO,
there is evil here because this planet is a Prison Planet designed to contain both the criminally insane who can't be cured because they love sin more than the truth, ie, the reprobate demons, but with a rehab centre in it to cure those who can be cured, ie, HIS sheep gone astray into sin, HIS sinful, good, elect, seed.

Thank you for your reply.

You stated that, "
My first premise:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Thus no one has any excuse to reject God's "eternal power and divine nature" because as the verse continues "have been clearly understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

So there is no excuse to reject or suppress "His eternal power and divine nature"

If the commentators are correct, then all sin could blamed on delusion or insanity.

Thus, if the commentators are correct, no one sins willfully by choice, but in a delusion.

However, since we are absolutely in charge of what we choose to think, that would include being deluded. That choice to be deluded would include rejecting the obvious truths of God's eternal power and divine nature. or as the KJV puts it, Romans 1:20 "20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

There is no excuse for suppressing nor rejecting God's eternal power and standing as Head God.

There are reasons, but no excuses. Some people are fearful to do God's will. Some have doubts. Some are concerned about what other's might think, ie., fear.

My own shortcomings have no excuse. I may be in need of further instruction or right teaching, which should, but does not always allay concerns, but the baseline is that no one has any excuse. Certainly, God is gracious and rich in mercy, but no one, including myself, has any excuse to not obey God. Obviously, there is a spiritual growth process, that all children of God must do.

We can and should obey God at all times

 

[ttruscott]

Thus, if the commentators are correct, no one sins willfully by choice, but in a delusion.

Your line of logic fails here... everyone first sins willfully by a free will choice. No exception. "No excuse" is about after we have seen the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power as per Job 38:7...while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? Berean Standard Bible and the sin which we brought with us into our life experience here on earth.

Since only sinners who have seen the proof of HIS Divinity and eternal power are conceived into mankind, no one here has an excuse for not bowing to HIM, proving the inability of the reprobate demons to respond to HIS call due to their first free will sin.

 

[ttruscott]

There is no excuse for suppressing nor rejecting God's eternal power and standing as Head God.

Exactly ! ... unless of course * they chose to rebuke HIM as a liar before they saw any proof ie, by faith not proof, which is the unforgivable sin: that is, saved by faith not proof also means condemned by faith not proof.

They can't be forgiven because
- they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity and HIS offer to save them from all sin by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone unless the person asks for it to be changed.

- Once they rebelled they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their ability to seek true repentance or a saviour. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and committed fully to the belief they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god. They could never ask for this to be changed....

Their willingness to rebuke YHWH as a false god without proof, ie, knowingly setting their hearts against HIM, HIS ways and HIS righteousness without proof means they knowingly chose to live in HIS hell (which they decided was a manipulative lie) rather than ever submit to HIM as their GOD and saviour, alas alack...

* Unless: it refers to the fact that I (and I believe) many of HIS sinful but legitimate children who only rejected HIS deity AFTER they became sinful so were still forgivable ! ie, it as possible to bring them back to their first free will decision to accept HIM as their GOD and Saviour...

 

[oatmeal]

Your line of logic fails here... everyone first sins willfully by a free will choice. No exception. "No excuse" is about after we have seen the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power as per Job 38:7...while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? Berean Standard Bible and the sin which we brought with us into our life experience here on earth.

Since only sinners who have seen the proof of HIS Divinity and eternal power are conceived into mankind, no one here has an excuse for not bowing to HIM, proving the inability of the reprobate demons to respond to HIS call due to their first free will sin.

Note: I said, "if the commentators are correct" It seems both you and I agree that the commentators are not correct. We do sin willfully. We allow our old man nature, the sin nature to guide us. We set our "autopilot" to sin nature. However, if we choose to receive salvation, Romans 10:9-10, and then renew our minds to follow and believe and do the Word of God, we then become worthy of God

 

[oatmeal]

Exactly ! ... unless of course * they chose to rebuke HIM as a liar before they saw any proof ie, by faith not proof, which is the unforgivable sin: that is, saved by faith not proof also means condemned by faith not proof.

They can't be forgiven because
- they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity and HIS offer to save them from all sin by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone unless the person asks for it to be changed.

- Once they rebelled they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their ability to seek true repentance or a saviour. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and committed fully to the belief they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god. They could never ask for this to be changed....

Their willingness to rebuke YHWH as a false god without proof, ie, knowingly setting their hearts against HIM, HIS ways and HIS righteousness without proof means they knowingly chose to live in HIS hell (which they decided was a manipulative lie) rather than ever submit to HIM as their GOD and saviour, alas alack...

* Unless: it refers to the fact that I (and I believe) many of HIS sinful but legitimate children who only rejected HIS deity AFTER they became sinful so were still forgivable ! ie, it as possible to bring them back to their first free will decision to accept HIM as their GOD and Saviour...

That is still sin.

 

[ttruscott]

That is still sin.

Wooah, biiig misunderstanding, huge! I did not make this claim to exonerate their sinfulness but to set up my thesis that such a free will decision must set our fates for eternity and sin by a true free will, ie not the fake free will of being enslaved to the addictive power of evil while still making choices on earth, is the only sin that can damn anyone.

The damned are damned for their sins before they ever got here in this world: John 3:18.

That is why I called it the unforgivable sin...

 

[Derf]

In order to effectually discuss a subject we must define our terms. If we choose to discuss the various breeds of dogs and their strong points and weak points, we must agree that we are talking about dogs, domestic dogs. To have a worthwhile discussion, we must not let our discussion include coyotes, wolves, or any other wild canines because our discussion is about domestic dogs. Of course, to gain background, we might deepen our analysis by understanding that dogs are domesticated wild canines and that man has bred these wild canines to meet certain expectations, but we would prefer to not go off on tangents. We must center our discussion on our chosen subject. That is, the strong and weak points of various domestic breeds of dogs.

Likewise, with discussions regarding the truth of God's word. We must center our focus on what God has given to us in scripture. Other subjects such as Biblical culture, figures of speech and the study of the grammar of the ancient Biblical languages will enhance the depth of our learning, but we must keep our focus on scripture as the anchor of our discussion.

So, what about phrases, often used that are not quotable from scripture?

For instance, the "sovereignty of God" or "God is in control" Can we actually support those phrases from scripture?

In my learning, I have disagreed with both. However, as I stated above, that is dependent on the definitions we use to describe those phrases.

What does "God is sovereign" mean?

From Jason Lisle's book, Introduction to Logic, his definition of sovereign makes perfect sense to me. "Having supreme power or authority and not required to answer to any higher authority" God, in this sense, is indeed, sovereign.

Any discussion on this is welcome.

Looking now to the idea that "God is in control", I find that to be too vague to be useful

Control of what? How much control?

God gave us free will to make decisions both good and bad. God is not in control of our free will, for if He did, it would not be free will. Note: free will does not include the power to successfully achieve whatever we decide, it is in reference only to be able to decide. For instance, we might decide, like Lucifer, that we should usurp God's throne and sovereignty and make it our own. Both Lucifer and Adam and Eve, and all sinners have done that, with various degrees of cataclysmic results.

In what sense does God control? Did God control Lucifer to force Lucifer to make the decision to attempt to usurp God's throne? No, God did not control Lucider into making that decision. That was Lucifer's choice and his choice only.

Why is there evil in this world? Is it because God forced it into this world because God is in control? Absolutely not. God is good always, we are taught to overcome evil with good, we expect God operates by the same truth.

Evil entered this world because of the poor choices by those who rejected God either knowingly or ignorantly.

God is light and in him is no darkness at all. I John 1:5.

What are are your thoughts?

If God being in control means that only what He desires will happen, it negates the concept of sin. If it's His desire, and sin is acting against God's desires, then sin is impossible.

 

[oatmeal]

Wooah, biiig misunderstanding, huge! I did not make this claim to exonerate their sinfulness but to set up my thesis that such a free will decision must set our fates for eternity and sin by a true free will, ie not the fake free will of being enslaved to the addictive power of evil while still making choices on earth, is the only sin that can damn anyone.

The damned are damned for their sins before they ever got here in this world: John 3:18.

That is why I called it the unforgivable sin..

Humanity, in general is condemned by Adam and Eve's sin and by humanities sins already. John 3:15-21.

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I am not suggesting that you would exonerate sinfulness. Only that having free will, we do make decisions that can either move us against God or towards God. Trying to remain "neutral" is basically rejecting God, thus that would move a person away from God because the longer we remain not moving in God's way, the longer we choose to remain in that sinful nature.

Of course, we must distinguish between the unsaved who sins and the saved who continues in sin although having been saved.

The subject of the unforgivable sin is another deeper topic entirely.

However, Romans 2 tells us how God shall deal with those who do not do Romans 10:9,

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Those who do not do Romans 10:9 will not benefit from the "prepaid" gift of salvation, but their decisions and lives will be judged according to Paul's gospel

 

[oatmeal]

If God being in control means that only what He desires will happen, it negates the concept of sin. If it's His desire, and sin is acting against God's desires, then sin is impossible.

Yes, exactly. God only controls what He controls. God does not control our free will, otherwise, of course, it would not be free will

 

[JudgeRightly]

a free will decision

"Free will" is redundant.

A will, by definition, is free.

If it's not free, it's not a will."

must set our fates for eternity

Sin, which is disobedience to God, which is an act of the will, is enough for God to justly condemn us to eternal separation from Him.

and sin by a true free will,

Is there any other kind?

Again, "free will" is redundant, because a will is free by definition.

ie not the fake free will of being enslaved to the addictive power of evil while still making choices on earth,

If it's not free, it's not a will.

If you are not freely making choices, then you are not exercising a will.

is the only sin that can damn anyone.

Any and all sin damns people. "The soul that sins shall die."

The damned are damned for their sins before they ever got here in this world: John 3:18.

False.

John 3:18 is talking about those who are living on the earth already. They are condemned because they have sinned.

Innocent babies in the womb have committed no sin, and thus the corollary to the above is true, "the soul that does not sin shall not die."

That is why I called it the unforgivable sin.

Until a person repents of their sin, their sin is unforgivable.

 

[oatmeal]

"Free will" is redundant.

A will, by definition, is free.

If it's not free, it's not a will."



Sin, which is disobedience to God, which is an act of the will, is enough for God to justly condemn us to eternal separation from Him.



Is there any other kind?

Again, "free will" is redundant, because a will is free by definition.



If it's not free, it's not a will.

If you are not freely making choices, then you are not exercising a will.



Any and all sin damns people. "The soul that sins shall die."



False.

John 3:18 is talking about those who are living on the earth already. They are condemned because they have sinned.

Innocent babies in the womb have committed no sin, and thus the corollary to the above is true, "the soul that does not sin shall not die."



Until a person repents of their sin, their sin is unforgivable.

Although the term "free will" may seem redundant, it does emphasize and leaves no question about what the meaning and intent is.

God does this very same thing. Grace is God giving unmeritted favor to us. Yes God repeats himself and refers to this as "free gift" For instance:

Romans 5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Likewise with our salvation.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It might be noted, that we can freely choose to do wrong either knowledgeably or ignorantly. Although we have no excuse to reject God's eternal power and function as the head God, we do not learn the Bible perfectly without effort.

Romans 1

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

You stated,
Any and all sin damns people. "The soul that sins shall die."

Yes, unless they are saved, which is an option. Romans 10:9

Likewise, you stated,

"Until a person repents of their sin, their sin is unforgivable."

If that is true, then Jesus died in vain. Then the price for our redemption and salvation has not been paid for.

Why are so many people willing to condemn, instead of accepting God's mercy and grace?

Ephesians 2

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Although the term "free will" may seem redundant, it does emphasize and leaves no question about what the meaning and intent is.

Again:

A will, BY DEFINITION, is free.

Thus "free will" IS, by definition, redundant.

God does this very same thing. Grace is God giving unmeritted favor to us. Yes God repeats himself and refers to this as "free gift" For instance:

Romans 5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Likewise with our salvation.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I have no idea what this is in response to, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I said.

It might be noted, that we can freely choose to do wrong either knowledgeably or ignorantly.

Yes, that's what it means to have a will.

Although we have no excuse to reject God's eternal power and function as the head God, we do not learn the Bible perfectly without effort.

Again, how is this relevant to what I said?

Romans 1

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Amen!

You stated,
Any and all sin damns people. "The soul that sins shall die."

Yes, unless they are saved, which is an option. Romans 10:9

Yes, that is implied.

Likewise, you stated,

"Until a person repents of their sin, their sin is unforgivable."

Unforgivable, in that God cannot justly forgive their sins until a person repents.

There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 13:1, Luke 13:2, Luke 13:3, Luke 13:4, Luke 13:5 - New King James Version

Repent or Perish - There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

www.biblegateway.com

If a man repents, he will be forgiven.

If that is true, then Jesus died in vain.

False.

It is true, and Jesus did not die in vain.

"We were reconciled to God through the death of His son" and "having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

Reconciliation is not salvation.

Christ died to reconcile the world to Him.

In doing so, He made it possible for the world to respond to His call.

Then the price for our redemption and salvation has not been paid for.

Of course it's been paid for.

The problem is that you think it being paid automatically means it's applied to the account of the one who sins.

It's literally one step away from universalism, which is heresy.

God cannot apply the payment to a person's account without them asking for it (in response to His offer, les you think that I am promoting the idea that men can come to God without an initial act from God).

Why are so many people willing to condemn, instead of accepting God's mercy and grace?

Your sentence doesn't make any sense.

Condemnation of the wicked and accepting God's mercy and grace are not mutually exclusive ideas.

Ephesians 2

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Amen!

 

[Gary K]

Interesting. I'm having a conversation on another forum about the Greek word translated as grace in Ephesians 2: 7.

[*StrongsGreek*]
05485
χάρις cháris, khar'-ece
from 5463;
graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality,

That;s a completely different concept than most people associate with grace.

 

[oatmeal]

Interesting. I'm having a conversation on another forum about the Greek word translated as grace in Ephesians 2: 7.

[*StrongsGreek*]
05485
χάρις cháris, khar'-ece
from 5463;
graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality,

That;s a completely different concept than most people associate with grace.

Well, if you wish to join here, you are welcome.

Certainly, those who recognize and accept God's grace and mercy will have their heart and lives affected. This grace and mercy should result in confidence and peace that all will be well, if they continue in God's grace and mercy by adhering to living His commandments, His word

 

[ttruscott]

A will, BY DEFINITION, is free.

By your definition you mean...certainly not by other definitions.

 

[Right Divider]

By your definition you mean...certainly not by other definitions.

What "other definitions"?

 

[Right Divider]