Theology Club: The Body of Christ and the Dispensation of Grace

[surrender]

Anyway....

The Body of Christ was planned from the foundation of the world. We would be Holy and blameless in him. Jew and gentile would both be a part of it.

The dispensation of grace was not planned from the foundation.

That's an interesting notion. I guess I never really thought about that before. We know the body of Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but I certainly don't think God planned for Israel to reject His Messiah from the foundation of the world.

Israel was set aside and had strict rules. We are given a pass, much to the dismay of godrulz, Jason0047 and other perverts here.

Why do you and Lighthouse call people names? It doesn't matter if you think they "deserve" it or not, it's not appropriate for adults to call one another names. And anytime I've called someone out for name calling on this board, they give me what they think is terrific justification for the name calling or they say something like, "You just need to grow thicker skin" as if that's even relevant. Those who partake in the name calling, do you think it's because they can't figure out a more sophisticated way to get their point across? Or do you think it's just another form of bullying? What's the root of it, in your opinion (since I see you tend to call names, maybe you know)? Also, do you realize it offends people? And it's not just offensive to the one you've called a name.

The events have overlap, as the dispensation of grace put us in the Body of Christ. Where as Israel had to endure to the end.

When John wrote, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13) was he writing to the body of Christ (i.e. uncircumcision) or to the twelve and those who believed through the twelve (i.e. circumcision)? What is your opinion on this?

 

[surrender]

A Christian accepts the training and discipline to live Matthew 5, 6, and 7 because he is saved not to be saved or stay saved.

I never said otherwise.

These verses are the principles that God gives for relating to Him and all people.

Okay.

Jews, no matter how "religious" they are cannot live these principals.

I’m not sure what you mean here. Lots of unbelievers obey some or many of these principles. Many other religions have some form of Christian principles within them.

This is one means that Christianity provokes Jews to jealously.

I’m not sure what you mean. Are you saying that Jews are jealous because Christians are so much better at following God’s laws than they are?

Jesus is quite clear about the results of lawlessness, i.e. refusing to receive the Holy Spirit grace and training to live Matthew 5, 6, and 7 before Him and the world in Matthew 7:21-24.

The result of unforgiven lawlessness is death.

How does all this fit in your theology?

It fits just fine. The laws of God remain good. I realize that the specific Law of Moses, pertaining to Israel alone, is not in effect. The Law of Moses was meant to be performed as a whole Law by the one nation, Israel. Israel, as a nation, has not been in a position to resume the Law of Moses and even if they could, I don’t see how the practice would be sanctioned by God. Israel’s perfect, once and for all sacrifice has been made. The Law of Moses is intimately tied to the Levitical priesthood and sacrifices, so if Israel attempted to re-establish the entire Law of Moses, it would be an affront to the perfect Lamb of God.

But as the Body of Christ, we’re not outside the Law of God but rather under the Law of Christ (1 Cor. 9:21). In other words, we are under the Law of God. That’s the kind of law we want to be in bondage to. The Law of Moses, although also falling under the category “Law of God” was not the “Law of Christ” and is not something one would want to be bound to (i.e. under) because it’s a Law that is centered on “do this right thing and don’t do that wrong thing, and if you mess up, do this offering or that sacrifice.” In other words, it’s an endless cycle of making up for wrongs done. The sin cycle is ongoing and never dealt with permanently.

The Law of Christ, however, puts an end to the sin cycle, the fear of death it brings and the continuous offering of sacrifice. That doesn’t mean it’s okay to neglect the Law of God. On the contrary, we are called to fulfill the law through love. And when we falter, we know an acceptable sacrifice has already been made on our behalf so that we can restore the crack we’ve created in our relationship with God.

 

[lesjude]

For Israel and their earthly kingdom they stood to inherit.

I am wondering then why all the principles of Matthew 5, 6, and 7 are taught by Paul, James and Peter in their epistles.
[

I]Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.[/I]

Do you keep what the Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 23? Be honest.

Wasn't Jesus talking to Jews who were under the law of Moses and telling them to obey that law as He did perfectly?
I am not under the law of Moses as they were so the answer is no. What is your point?

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

And you are not born again, as the Lord Jesus Christ describes in John 3. Nobody is but him. For now. Unless you are going to tell me you can vanish from sight, nobody knows where you went.

Wasn't Jesus using a figure of speech to explain a supernatural spiritual change that could not be seen by the physical eye? And yes, Christians have been translated from place to place today just as Jesus was and Phillip in the book of Acts. Didn't it also happened in the OT? Why should this seem strange to any believer?

 

[lesjude]

I never said otherwise.

Okay.

I’m not sure what you mean here. Lots of unbelievers obey some or many of these principles. Many other religions have some form of Christian principles within them.

Do you believe most Christians practice Matthew 5: 3-10, 27-32, 33-37 and 38-48; 6:16-18, 19-24? I can find little or no evidence that this is the case. Church splits, partisan politics, law suits, a divorce rate as high as unbelievers, oaths taken for office holding etc, jury duty (Matthew 7:1-6), materialism and the debt that goes with it, fighting and killing in the nation's carnal wars, and the rejection of one of Jesus' most precious gifts (Matthew 7:7-12) Acts 2:4.

I’m not sure what you mean. Are you saying that Jews are jealous because Christians are so much better at following God’s laws than they are?

Christians who live Matthew 5, 6, and 7, as all should, would make Jews jealous because NO ONE except born again spirit filled (Acts 2:4) Christians who submit to the training of the Holy Spirit can possibly live these.

The result of unforgiven lawlessness is death.

True. However without the Acts 2:4 experience and understanding how the Holy Spirit trains disciples in Hebrews 11 faith and the death of the self life living the sermon on the mount produces frustration and repeated failure. Example: Unless one is trained in faith for finances (Hebrews 11:1 with Matthew 6:25-34)and dead to materialism the result is the sin of worry and the bondage of debt.

It fits just fine. The laws of God remain good. I realize that the specific Law of Moses, pertaining to Israel alone, is not in effect. The Law of Moses was meant to be performed as a whole Law by the one nation, Israel. Israel, as a nation, has not been in a position to resume the Law of Moses and even if they could, I don’t see how the practice would be sanctioned by God. Israel’s perfect, once and for all sacrifice has been made. The Law of Moses is intimately tied to the Levitical priesthood and sacrifices, so if Israel attempted to re-establish the entire Law of Moses, it would be an affront to the perfect Lamb of God.

But as the Body of Christ, we’re not outside the Law of God but rather under the Law of Christ (1 Cor. 9:21). In other words, we are under the Law of God. That’s the kind of law we want to be in bondage to. The Law of Moses, although also falling under the category “Law of God” was not the “Law of Christ” and is not something one would want to be bound to (i.e. under) because it’s a Law that is centered on “do this right thing and don’t do that wrong thing, and if you mess up, do this offering or that sacrifice.” In other words, it’s an endless cycle of making up for wrongs done. The sin cycle is ongoing and never dealt with permanently.

The Law of Christ, however, puts an end to the sin cycle, the fear of death it brings and the continuous offering of sacrifice. That doesn’t mean it’s okay to neglect the Law of God. On the contrary, we are called to fulfill the law through love. And when we falter, we know an acceptable sacrifice has already been made on our behalf so that we can restore the crack we’ve created in our relationship with God.

It is dealt with permanently. However without the spiritual power (Acts 2:4) and understanding of the Holy Spirit training in Bible faith necessary for that to work in disciples' lives the cycle goes on. It seems most have little or no idea how God trains or Hebrews 11 faith.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lesjude View Post
Then who and what is Matthew 5, 6, and 7 for?
"For Israel and their earthly kingdom they stood to inherit."
Nick M said the above and then you said the opposite. Which is it?

 

[surrender]

Do you believe most Christians practice Matthew 5: 3-10, 27-32, 33-37 and 38-48; 6:16-18, 19-24?

Yes, I do. But I’m not sure what my opinion matters on this.

I can find little or no evidence that this is the case. Church splits, partisan politics, law suits, a divorce rate as high as unbelievers, oaths taken for office holding etc, jury duty (Matthew 7:1-6), materialism and the debt that goes with it, fighting and killing in the nation's carnal wars, and the rejection of one of Jesus' most precious gifts (Matthew 7:7-12) Acts 2:4.

Oh, well, it sounds like you’re talking about those who assume the title, “Christian.” All those in the nation of Israel did not demonstrate faith. There was only a remnant within Israel who demonstrated faith. All those in the Church do not demonstrate faith. There is only a remnant within the Church who demonstrates faith (i.e. the Body of Christ). May I ask the point you’re trying to make?

Christians who live Matthew 5, 6, and 7, as all should, would make Jews jealous because NO ONE except born again spirit filled (Acts 2:4) Christians who submit to the training of the Holy Spirit can possibly live these.

Acts 2:4 describes an event when spirit filled disciples spoke in other languages. I’m not sure what you’re implying by quoting this Scripture. The spirit filled Christians I know do not seem to be making any Jews jealous. At least, not that I’m aware of. Are you? How many Jews have come to faith through your living out the words of Jesus?

True. However without the Acts 2:4 experience and understanding how the Holy Spirit trains disciples in Hebrews 11 faith and the death of the self life living the sermon on the mount produces frustration and repeated failure. Example: Unless one is trained in faith for finances (Hebrews 11:1 with Matthew 6:25-34)and dead to materialism the result is the sin of worry and the bondage of debt.

Okay.

It is dealt with permanently. However without the spiritual power (Acts 2:4) and understanding of the Holy Spirit training in Bible faith necessary for that to work in disciples' lives the cycle goes on. It seems most have little or no idea how God trains or Hebrews 11 faith.

It seems you’re stuck on one verse, Acts 2:4. I’m not sure why. You seem to be arguing that if one isn’t filled with the Holy Spirit, then God can’t work through them. Makes sense. But you can’t debate people into receiving the Holy Spirit that comes from God alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lesjude View Post
Then who and what is Matthew 5, 6, and 7 for?
"For Israel and their earthly kingdom they stood to inherit."
Nick M said the above and then you said the opposite. Which is it?

Are you asking because you don’t know?

 

[Nick M]

That's an interesting notion. I guess I never really thought about that before. We know the body of Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but I certainly don't think God planned for Israel to reject His Messiah from the foundation of the world.

It would seem like not.

Why do you and Lighthouse call people names?

You should identify the false prophets and wolves. You think the Lord Jesus Christ was wrong to command it?

When John wrote, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13) was he writing to the body of Christ (i.e. uncircumcision) or to the twelve and those who believed through the twelve (i.e. circumcision)? What is your opinion on this?

John calls people names in his letter. Did you play the hypocrite and rebuke him yet? :wave:

My little children, these things I write to you....3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him....10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God,

This is circumcision and the gospel of the Kingdom. John is keeping Matthew 23. Paul said the opposite of John, and it is not written to us. Which is why you will not see me refer to what he wrote on this board.

 

[lesjude]

Yes, I do. But I’m not sure what my opinion matters on this.

I am trying to understand your theology.

Oh, well, it sounds like you’re talking about those who assume the title, “Christian.” All those in the nation of Israel did not demonstrate faith. There was only a remnant within Israel who demonstrated faith. All those in the Church do not demonstrate faith. There is only a remnant within the Church who demonstrates faith (i.e. the Body of Christ). May I ask the point you’re trying to make?

Not really. There are many sincere Christians who love Jesus but are held in bondage to the doctrines and traditions of man's religion. One is the cult of nationalism which most denominations sustain.

Acts 2:4 describes an event when spirit filled disciples spoke in other languages. I’m not sure what you’re implying by quoting this Scripture. The spirit filled Christians I know do not seem to be making any Jews jealous. At least, not that I’m aware of. Are you? How many Jews have come to faith through your living out the words of Jesus?

A Christian can be spirit filled and not be living Matthew 5, 6 and 7, understand Bible faith, allowing the Holy Spirit to put the self life to death, or doing Matthew 10:7-8 and Mark 16:17-18. This DOES NOT mean they are unsaved.
We live Matthew 5, 6, and 7, walk in Hebrews 11 faith, do Matthew 10:7-8 and Mark 16:17-18 (but not as often as we would like to or are pressing in to). I do not know many Jews but one I do know I had the privilege to speak to her of our testimony and explain the gospel. She received Jesus. I have found the Jews I knew in college, reestablished a relationship and share the gospel and our testimony with them. There will be fruit in Jesus' name.

Okay.

It seems you’re stuck on one verse, Acts 2:4. I’m not sure why. You seem to be arguing that if one isn’t filled with the Holy Spirit, then God can’t work through them. Makes sense. But you can’t debate people into receiving the Holy Spirit that comes from God alone.

I simply use Acts 2:4 as a quick reference. God can and does use Christians that do not have this experience. Many who do have it neglect the Spirit as I have said.
No, one cannot debate people into it. However I can point out the scriptures, give our testimony of His power in our lives, "Our Testimony/Normal Christianity" and they can decide.

Are you asking because you don’t know?

No, I am asking so I can understand your theology.

 

[surrender]

You should identify the false prophets and wolves. You think the Lord Jesus Christ was wrong to command it?

Which verse exactly does Jesus imply we should call people derogatory names? Calling someone out as a false prophet (i.e. a wolf) to warn the brethren is not what I'm talking about.

Jesus' command to identify the false prophets (i.e. wolves) within the Church doesn't justify your calling people derogatory names.

John calls people names in his letter.

I don’t see John calling any particular individual a name. He simply said that if one calls himself a believer and yet disobeys God's commands, the truth is not in him (i.e. he is a liar). That doesn't mean John is giving you the right to call someone a liar. That means John is giving you the right to give the same warning. This warning is supposed to spur on self-examination. It's not meant to be ammunition for shooting out insults to others.

Seeing that your justification has failed, will you stop calling people names, names meant to insult and belittle?

Also, I'm wondering. Unbelievers seeking truth come here. Do you think it's helpful or unhelpful to their quest when they see a believer calling names as you do?

Did you play the hypocrite and rebuke him yet?

I think you’re using the word “hypocrite” incorrectly here. If I call someone out for name calling, that doesn’t mean I preach one thing and do another (i.e. hypocrite).

This is circumcision and the gospel of the Kingdom.

Thanks.

So, in 1 John 5:13 John says that he writes these things so that they may know they “have” eternal life. If you have life and then lose it, it wasn’t eternal. It stopped. Eternal things don’t stop; that’s the very definition of the word eternal. So, how can these guys lose salvation (i.e. must endure to the end, and all that)?

 

[surrender]

Not really. There are many sincere Christians who love Jesus but are held in bondage to the doctrines and traditions of man's religion. One is the cult of nationalism which most denominations sustain.

Doctrines and traditions don’t hold one in bondage. Sin does. The Lord is interested in the person’s heart, not the person’s doctrine or tradition. The Holy Spirit is powerful enough to work around obstacles if the person seeks God and His ways in humility and contriteness of spirit.

A Christian can be spirit filled and not be living Matthew 5, 6 and 7, understand Bible faith, allowing the Holy Spirit to put the self life to death, or doing Matthew 10:7-8 and Mark 16:17-18. This DOES NOT mean they are unsaved.
We live Matthew 5, 6, and 7, walk in Hebrews 11 faith, do Matthew 10:7-8 and Mark 16:17-18 (but not as often as we would like to or are pressing in to). I do not know many Jews but one I do know I had the privilege to speak to her of our testimony and explain the gospel. She received Jesus. I have found the Jews I knew in college, reestablished a relationship and share the gospel and our testimony with them. There will be fruit in Jesus' name.

Faith is active, not passive. If one has faith, it’s always demonstrated somehow and in some way.

I simply use Acts 2:4 as a quick reference. God can and does use Christians that do not have this experience. Many who do have it neglect the Spirit as I have said.
No, one cannot debate people into it. However I can point out the scriptures, give our testimony of His power in our lives, "Our Testimony/Normal Christianity" and they can decide.

What is “Our Testimony/Normal Christianity”?

No, I am asking so I can understand your theology.

Oh. Well, I don’t know that I said the “opposite.” I’m not completely sure what you’re asking, either. The Law of Moses was for the nation of Israel. This particular Law was meant to be lived out as an entire unit by the one and only nation, Israel. However, there are principles within this Law that apply to all people who love God. To simplify, when we love one another, we fulfill the Law of Christ, which is under the category of the Law of God.

 

[Nick M]

Which verse exactly does Jesus imply we should call people derogatory names? Calling someone out as a false prophet (i.e. a wolf) to warn the brethren is not what I'm talking about.

It sure is the same. Calling somebody a pervert is letting people know that person perverts the Bible or the gospel. Usually both. The Lord Jesus Christ did it all the time.

 

[lesjude]

Doctrines and traditions don’t hold one in bondage. Sin does. The Lord is interested in the person’s heart, not the person’s doctrine or tradition. The Holy Spirit is powerful enough to work around obstacles if the person seeks God and His ways in humility and contriteness of spirit.

Matthew 15:6-9

New King James Version (NKJV)

6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’[a] Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And[c] honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”[d]

More examples are Xmas and Easter.
I agree that if one is seeking truth Jesus will give it.

Faith is active, not passive. If one has faith, it’s always demonstrated somehow and in some way.

What is “Our Testimony/Normal Christianity”?

Oh. Well, I don’t know that I said the “opposite.” I’m not completely sure what you’re asking, either. The Law of Moses was for the nation of Israel. This particular Law was meant to be lived out as an entire unit by the one and only nation, Israel. However, there are principles within this Law that apply to all people who love God. To simplify, when we love one another, we fulfill the Law of Christ, which is under the category of the Law of God.

Here is what I am talking about:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lesjude View Post
Then who and what is Matthew 5, 6, and 7 for?
Then are you saying that Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8 not for the body of Christ?
What about "born again" in John 3:1-8?

The above are my questions to Nick M

The statements below are his answers to those questions.

For Israel and their earthly kingdom they stood to inherit.

Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

Do you keep what the Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 23? Be honest.

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

And you are not born again, as the Lord Jesus Christ describes in John 3. Nobody is but him. For now. Unless you are going to tell me you can vanish from sight, nobody knows where you went.

What is “Our Testimony/Normal Christianity”?

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84267

 

[surrender]

It sure is the same. Calling somebody a pervert is letting people know that person perverts the Bible or the gospel. Usually both. The Lord Jesus Christ did it all the time.

I don’t recall Jesus ever calling out one person specifically as a false prophet the way you call individuals perverts and liars. Even so, there are ways to call someone out for false prophecy other than calling them “perverts.” Jesus never used such a term. Also, in our culture, the term “pervert” carries with it connotations unrelated to what you’re trying to communicate. It’s offensive, especially to seeking unbelievers who know nothing of Scripture. Do you agree? If so, would it be difficult to simply use the term “false prophet” instead of “pervert” when you feel the Holy Spirit calling you to warn the brethren?

Did you agree with what I wrote about John? That he is giving you the right to give the same warning to spur on self-examination but not giving you the right to call someone a liar.

What is your response to what I wrote about 1 John 5:13? It says that he writes these things so that they may know they “have” eternal life. If you have life and then lose it, it wasn’t eternal. It stopped. Eternal things don’t stop; that’s the very definition of the word eternal. So, how can these guys lose salvation (i.e. must endure to the end, and all that)?

 

[surrender]

Genesis 22:12
“He said, ‘Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.’”

God says, “Since you have not…NOW I know.” It’s not that I think God didn’t already know that Abraham feared God (God knows Abraham’s heart). And I realize there were many times prior to this event that Abraham demonstrated through faith his fear in God. But there is something monumental in this particular event that demonstrates to God once and for all that Abraham fears God. If God knew the entire future as settled, God’s statement “now I know” would be completely disingenuous.

Matthew 15:6-9

New King James Version (NKJV)

6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’[a] Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And[c] honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”[d]

More examples are Xmas and Easter.
I agree that if one is seeking truth Jesus will give it.

It’s not the traditions that corrupted these guy’s hearts, lesjude. Sin corrupted them. If their hearts were right, their tradition would have no influence over them (i.e. they wouldn’t be hypocrites. Men can go through hoops to impress God (i.e. traditions), but it won’t mean a thing if their heart is not right.

Here is what I am talking about:
The above are my questions to Nick M

The statements below are his answers to those questions.

Okay. That’s a discussion between you and Nick. Did you have a specific question for me?

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=84267

Great testimony. But God isn’t out to make cookie cutter situations. He’s creative and unique and works in all kinds of ways with all kinds of people. What happened in your life isn’t necessarily what’s going to happen in another’s life. Allow God to decide what’s "normal" Christianity in our lives. It's simply not going to look the same for everybody.

 

[lesjude]

Okay. That’s a discussion between you and Nick. Did you have a specific question for me?

So you and Nick are not in agreement about MidActs Dispensationalism regarding born again, Matthew 5, 6, and 7, and Matthew 10:7-8 and Mark 16:17-18? Do you believe that theology?

Great testimony. But God isn’t out to make cookie cutter situations. He’s creative and unique and works in all kinds of ways with all kinds of people. What happened in your life isn’t necessarily what’s going to happen in another’s life. Allow God to decide what’s "normal" Christianity in our lives. It's simply not going to look the same for everybody.

No, it is only "great" because most do not see it as normal. It is normal. You have to show me from scripture that it is normal Christianity to trust the medical system for health and healing, pay the legal protection racket called insurance to secure lives and property, go into bondage to borrow money for ANYTHING, not do Matthew 10:7-8 and Mark 16:17-18 at every opportunity, celebrate the heathen holidays, support, fight and kill in wars. I could go on but you get the idea. The only way you can justify any other "normal" is to give the traditions and teachings of religious men which is my point about the bondage they create.

Genesis 22:12
“He said, ‘Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.’”

God says, “Since you have not…NOW I know.” It’s not that I think God didn’t already know that Abraham feared God (God knows Abraham’s heart). And I realize there were many times prior to this event that Abraham demonstrated through faith his fear in God. But there is something monumental in this particular event that demonstrates to God once and for all that Abraham fears God. If God knew the entire future as settled, God’s statement “now I know” would be completely disingenuous.

Of course God absolutely knew of a certainty what Abraham would do and that the entire future as well. If He did not and does not He is not omniscient and therefore not God. There is no time for God. He sees all events in one continuum. He said this to explain the nature and methods of His training for our benefit.
Here is the principle in the NT.
John 11:41-42

New King James Version (NKJV)

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying.[a] And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.”

 

[Nick M]

I don’t recall Jesus ever calling out one person specifically as a false prophet the way you call individuals perverts and liars.

Well, he called large groups of people vile names. Names that they were. He correctly identified the wicked. The problem is, you don't like it because you are wicked in your heart.

Even so, there are ways to call someone out for false prophecy other than calling them “perverts.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword...V&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no

Jesus is God, in case you forgot. And just for good measure, the Apostle Paul speaks on behalf of God and the Lord Jesus Christ. With absolute authority he speaks.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Accursed is cut off, and tossed in the fire. In other words, he said what Buzz said to some here. Go to hell.

Do you agree?

Hell no, I don't agree with you. You are spineless.

If so, would it be difficult to simply use the term “false prophet” instead of “pervert” when you feel the Holy Spirit calling you to warn the brethren?

How about calling them bastard children of satan? Jesus did it. He said what you would call vile to many people, because they were. So much so, that they often picked up stones against him because of what came out of his mouth.

Now back to the subject.

 

[lesjude]

Well, he called large groups of people vile names. Name that they were. He correctly identified the wicked. The problem is, you don't like it because you are wicked in your heart.



http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword...V&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no

Jesus is God, in case you forgot. And just for good measure, the Apostle Paul speaks on behalf of God and the Lord Jesus Christ. With absolute authority he speaks.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Accursed is cut off, and tossed in the fire. In other words, he said what Buzz said to some here. Go to hell.



Hell no, I don't agree with you. You are spineless.



How about calling them bastard children of satan? Jesus did it. He said what you would call vile to many people, because they were. So much so, that they often picked up stones against him because of what came out of his mouth.

Now back to the subject.

To remain in the theology Club you will need to be able to play well with others. The Theology Club is for folks who do not wish to bicker, fight, play games, obfuscate, or otherwise present themselves as a distraction to the discussion.

One of the things most learned in kindergarten.

 

[surrender]

So you and Nick are not in agreement about MidActs Dispensationalism regarding born again, Matthew 5, 6, and 7, and Matthew 10:7-8 and Mark 16:17-18? Do you believe that theology?

Not exactly, no. I do see the Acts 2 tongues, etc. as a foretaste of what’s to come. Since Israel did not accept her Messiah, the complete fulfillment of that is for the future. I do believe we’re born of God, but the fullness of all that means is for the future, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and all Israel is saved. As far as obeying the laws of God, we fulfill the law as we go about loving one another.

No, it is only "great" because most do not see it as normal. It is normal. You have to show me from scripture that it is normal Christianity to trust the medical system for health and healing, pay the legal protection racket called insurance to secure lives and property, go into bondage to borrow money for ANYTHING, not do Matthew 10:7-8 and Mark 16:17-18at every opportunity, celebrate the heathen holidays, support, fight and kill in wars. I could go on but you get the idea. The only way you can justify any other "normal" is to give the traditions and teachings of religious men which is my point about the bondage they create.

I’m sorry, lesjude, but you don’t get to be everyone’s Holy Spirit. Not everyone will have the same experiences you have. God gets to decide what’s “normal” Christianity for people. We don't get to judge whether someone is trusting God enough, whether they're loving neighbor enough, and whether they're praying for healing, etc. enough.

Of course God absolutely knew of a certainty what Abraham would do and that the entire future as well. If He did not and does not He is not omniscient and therefore not God.

That’s your definition of omniscient (“knowledge of the future as settled”), because you believe the sci-fi idea that the future is “out there” somewhere. I have a different idea of the nature of the future.

There is no time for God. He sees all events in one continuum. He said this to explain the nature and methods of His training for our benefit.

Now, you’re the one believing the traditions of men, lesjude. Scripture does not teach that God is “outside of time” or that time is created. That IS a tradition handed down from Plato.

Here is the principle in the NT.
John 11:41-42

New King James Version (NKJV)

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying.[a] And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.”

Of course, God searches our hearts. He knows us intimately.

 

[Nang]

Well, he called large groups of people vile names. Name that they were. He correctly identified the wicked. The problem is, you don't like it because you are wicked in your heart.



http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword...V&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no

Jesus is God, in case you forgot. And just for good measure, the Apostle Paul speaks on behalf of God and the Lord Jesus Christ. With absolute authority he speaks.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Accursed is cut off, and tossed in the fire. In other words, he said what Buzz said to some here. Go to hell.



Hell no, I don't agree with you. You are spineless.



How about calling them bastard children of satan? Jesus did it. He said what you would call vile to many people, because they were. So much so, that they often picked up stones against him because of what came out of his mouth.

Now back to the subject.

Problem is, Nick . . . you are no Jesus Christ.

You do not have the divine authority to be Judge over mankind.

Nang

 

[surrender]

…other perverts here.

The problem is, you don't like it because you are wicked in your heart.

Hell no, I don't agree with you. You are spineless.

Go to hell.

Ephesians 4:29 NIV
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

James 1:26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless.

Matthew 12:33-37
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. …on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak…

James 3:10
From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.

Titus 3:2
To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.

Proverbs 10:8
The one who conceals hatred has lying lips, and whoever utters slander is a fool.

 

[lesjude]

Not exactly, no. I do see the Acts 2 tongues, etc. as a foretaste of what’s to come. Since Israel did not accept her Messiah, the complete fulfillment of that is for the future. I do believe we’re born of God, but the fullness of all that means is for the future, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and all Israel is saved. As far as obeying the laws of God, we fulfill the law as we go about loving one another.

We are the gentiles and by Hebrews 11 faith we can have all the "fullness" now that we are willing to seek Jesus for. What "fullness" do you refer to? In fact we are not necessarily going to die. Do you see Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8 for today? Do you know the purpose(s) of the Holy Spirit for Jesus' church today? They are a lot more than speaking in tongues. In fact here is a summary: Ephesians 4:13-14, Romans 8:29, and
Ephesians 3:19
New King James Version (NKJV)
19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
If one does not believe that the fullness requires Holy Spirit training to walk in ALL the meaning of sozo and you do not seem to, then there is not much chance of walking in the fullness so you have to come up with I'm OK, your OK. The standard is not mine or yours but as I have pointed out the Bible's. You have given no scripture to indicate what I have said is normal Christianity is not.

I’m sorry, lesjude, but you don’t get to be everyone’s Holy Spirit. Not everyone will have the same experiences you have. God gets to decide what’s “normal” Christianity for people. We don't get to judge whether someone is trusting God enough, whether they're loving neighbor enough, and whether they're praying for healing, etc. enough.

Faith to receive and walk in what Jesus provided in His cross, trusting Him alone, is normal Christianity. This includes sins forgiven, eternal life, health and healing, material provision, protection from harm. Look up the meaning of the Greek word sozo- to save. Jesus Himself says there is no difference in His willingness and ability to heal and/or forgive sin. The condition is ALWAYS Hebrews 11 faith. No sinner is ever told that Jesus might not be willing to forgive sin and grant eternal life. It is amazing to me why anyone would think He is not ALWAYS willing and able to heal and all the rest included in salvation. Another bondage of man's religion which sadly you are promoting.

That’s your definition of omniscient (“knowledge of the future as settled”), because you believe the sci-fi idea that the future is “out there” somewhere. I have a different idea of the nature of the future.

There is no "future" for God. It is all present because God is spirit and does not exist in time.

Now, you’re the one believing the traditions of men, lesjude. Scripture does not teach that God is “outside of time” or that time is created. That IS a tradition handed down from Plato.

Scripture teaches God always existed and that includes BEFORE He created time. Just because some heathen happens to get something right does not alter Bible truth.

Of course, God searches our hearts. He knows us intimately.

This has nothing to do with what I said to explain why God was not disingenuous in His statement to Abraham.