You should be able to do that in one post
-but-
you and your friends seem to be dominating the thread.
The Book of Revelation: Mystery Or Profitable?
- Thread starter Arial
- Start date
-but-
you and your friends seem to be dominating the thread.
Arial
Active member
Let me try and make this clear---again---and then hopefully we can drop the name calling and personal remarks, that most definitely are off topic and contribute nothing of value. My problem is not people pointing out perceived errors in the view I am presenting. One was presented early on, that of John's audience and who the book of Revelation was written to and for. That was dealt with from the point of view I am presenting, and by historical fact. What that person believes about it is beyond my wheelhouse to even want to change, but rather than move on, this continued, others jumped in, same subject, which changed to a discussion about what apostles said what to whom and why, then that topic was carried on and on, as though that subject were the title of the OP, so that the topic, Revelation presented through the futurist/amillennialist POV, went by the wayside, everything said on that topic ignored (probably not even read). Then there had to be another argument about me saying that. Then there had to be another sub thread, of nothing but back and forth bickering about nothing, and then a return to the argument over which apostle wrote what to whom, and some more bickering about nothing. That, IMO, is the very definition of a derailed thread. It appears that Clete is prepared to go back to topic---so great---as is Tambora. Let's move forward and thanks. I would really like it if some might get at least a little bit of good and strengthening and encouragement, and information out of the thread whether they agree with parts of it or none of it.
There are those here who don't believe in works so Revelation was not written for them. Don't know why they are here talking about it.
Do you have a mouse in your pocket or something?
Debatable.
No, it wasn't. Not sufficiently. And certainly not by "historical fact."
See Clete's post.
That's not how "discussion" works.
As Clete mentioned earlier, taking the discussion in a direction that the OP of the thread wasn't expecting is not against the rules. In fact, it can be far more fruitful (not to mention fun) than expecting everyone to just simply go along with the flow of the original intent of the thread. The challenge that was presented in response to the OP was against the foundations of the view that Arial was presenting, something on which everything within the view is predicated on, that if shown to be false, renders the rest of the view untenable (as a house built upon sand cannot stand).
Correct me if I'm wrong but Revelation wasn't written for you. So why are you here?
Right Divider
Body part
WRONG... the whole Bible is FOR everyone... but some books are not TO everyone.
was Revelation written to you?
Arial
Active member
The amillennialist arrives at this view of no distinction between Israel and the church in salvation or in Revelation from scripture. The "servants of our God" (Rev 7:3) must include Gentile believers as well, because of this: Eph 2:11-22, (I am not going to quote all these scriptures mentioned as it makes a post enormously long, which then makes a response that is line by line, even more enormous etc., and tends to get too many ideas to try and focus on in response. This site needs a the thingy connected to the scriptures that opens them up for the reader.) The promises only associated with the 144,000 in Rev 9:4; 14:1-5 confirm it.
God turned away from rebellious Israel, but not Israel as His people. Romans 11:15-24 tells us that believing Gentiles are grafted into Israel, we become branches of one tree---the people of God, in Christ, the same as we see in the parable of the vine and the branches. And this speaks of spiritual Israel, it is not saying that Gentiles become Jews.
Arial
Active member
Whatever JR. I will be moving forward, you are welcome to stay where you are.
Right Divider
Body part
Not directly... but ALL of the Bible is profitable for study.
Right Divider
Body part
Only some... and only temporarily.
Gentiles do not get "grafted into Israel".
God's plans for Israel: Jews and Gentiles.
God's plans for the body of Christ: neither Jew nor Greek.
Arial
Active member
That would mean Paul was lying.
Right Divider
Body part
No, it simply means that you misunderstand.
The "root" is not Israel.
glorydaz
Well-known member
My point is that any of the sufferings you point to from the past have NOTHING to do with the great Tribulation and Wrath of God which is spoken of in the book of Revelation.
glorydaz
Well-known member
She needs all the input she can get, whether she realizes it or not. In all the other threads, there is open discussion. Why should Ariel's be any different?
Arial
Active member
There actually is another way to see it, and for me personally it makes much more sense out of the entire book. But here is the other way:
At the end of chapter six we see the sixth seal leading up to the second coming opened. We would perhaps expect to see the seventh seal opened either in that chapter or at the beginning of the next chapter. Instead what we see in Rev 7: 1-8 is an interlude, and there are several in the series of judgement. In these interludes, God comforts and strengthens the saints, assuring them that He will protect them even in the calamities shown in chapter 6. All who are sealed as His will be protected from spiritual harm, even if they suffer persecution and in some cases death. The interlude tells us of this sealing in a vision. In this vision we see:
Four angels
At the four corners of the earth
Holding four winds
The seal confirms God's ownership
I do not think there is any question that these things are figurative or symbols. The earth doesn't have corners, angels can't hold wind, God doesn't come down and stamp with a stamp.
So why all of a sudden is 144,000 and all those 12's literal? The answer, according to amillennialism is in finding the Biblical meaning and use by God, of the number 12 and well as a 1000. In other words, is there a reason why God is using these numbers when He uses them elsewhere in the Bible? Is their a reason there are 12 tribes and twelve apostles, and 12's used in the New Jerusalem, the new heaven and the news earth, 12 baskets of fragments, the 12's in the house of the Lord (Solomon's temple), the 12's used in the sacrifices, etc. etc.? The simple answer is that yes God has a reason and the reason is because it represents something. There is not one thing that God does that is not connected and carries through the entire Bible with consistency.
So what does it represent? It is a perfect number and represents God's power and authority as well as a perfect governmental foundation. Therefore the 144,000 12x12x1000 (1000 used in scripture to express a long period of time or a great number) represents all the people of God, which is His power and authority and the perfect governmental foundation.
In Rev 9 we see it expressed as a great multitude from every nation and tribe and people and nation (9-17). As for 9:3-7 was there a literal seal on their foreheads? That was covered at the beginning of this post.
glorydaz
Well-known member
It certainly helps with our witnessing the Gospel. Get saved or this is what awaits you.
Arial
Active member
That all depends on how you define the Great Tribulation. I have not seen the Bible call any particular time period the Great Tribulation. What it does say, is that the church (all believers) will suffer tribulations, and indeed they have, are, and will to come.
Arial
Active member
Who is the root?